I'd like to discuss this theory rationally
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 17:48
VIEWED: 17233
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
All right, I concede its not guaranteed. But I'm going to continue being nervous, it's not really something I can help. I point out that if the Clintons pushed him into saying it, the Clintons are now a big part of his foreign policy.
Maybe having a war against an idea has eliminated the need for Emannuel Goldstein characters, except for periods when focus is needed.
Oh, and I'm going to agree with all of this as well. Emmanuel goldstein is an idea, but he's a personified idea, and that may be obsolete. It may be that, for the sake of morale, a victory of some sort was needed in order for the effort to continue at all..
Very valid point, both of you. That's why the War on Terror is the perfect new Cold War - it's a war on an IDEA, and you can just plug in the baddie of the week to keep it going. We noticed similar things with the War on (some) Drugs, when we'd have Pablo Escobar, and now Mexican cartels, stand in as this week's guest stars.
We've pretty much agreed that the IDEA of Bin Laden is dead, but it's been pointed out repeatedly by the President and everyone else that the was is in no way over. I'm not convinced that that wasn't the whole idea all along.
We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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I think its a fair thing to discuss Anthony, after all, they haven't given us any physical evidence one way or the other. I think they probably killed him like they said, but, given his poor health 10 years ago, it seems like he should have already been dead. But I'm willing to go with the official story, at least for now, but I do want some questions answered like how he's lived this long with such bad health (he's a bizillionaire, that could be how), and I wonder if they will release some sort of DNA info to prove it to the masses who may be unlikely to believe it without evidence of some kind. I too understand why they didn't want to take pictures, those would be all over and we'd be getting crap in Afghanistan, more then we're going to get already as backlash. But they need to show some evidence to appease people who aren't sure.
I hope we don't make war with Pakistan, that's the last thing we need, groan. I just want us to get out of Libya, finish up in Iraq, draw things to a close in Afghanistan (though that might still take a while). Then we can think about making more war, but not until then.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Odd that we never seem to think of making LESS war...
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Although we will probably never see it, the best proof of whether it was ben Laden or not would probably be in the computers, hard drives, and media recovered from the compound. If we start seeing reports of al Qaeda cells being taken down at a higher rate, I'd call that pretty good evidence that we got either ben Laden or his surrogate.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Mike
You make excellent points, and may I add Noriega to that list.
I'm going to segue to an earlier thread. I'm now having this flat earth argument in two different forums at once, and it's wasting my time. I've spent more time on this now than playing Angry Birds, and perhaps to less effect, so I think I'll go play angry birds.
But first, I wanted to meander into why we're here, having this argument. I feel not only that Bin Laden was already dead, but that all of us had already accepted that. I'm even arguing it with the guy who told me he had died at the time in 2001. I had to wonder.
I wasn't sure when I first heard the news, but as time went on, I noticed that anything officially done by Al Qaeda or for it was done by Zawahiri, and I thought, oh, who better would know that Bin Laden was dead than his doctor?
That's not why we're having this argument. Frem pointed out right away that anyone with access to Google could prove that he was dead in about 90 seconds with 20 sources to back them up. It's not that I'm a conspiracy theorist, or that I know something you don't, it's religion.
Yes, religion. We needed it. We needed a victory. We needed some sign of success in something that we were doing as a nation to have succeeded in what it was trying to do even if all it was trying to do was to kill a man.
That's why this argument is taking place, and that's why it's so much more ferocious than other arguments. It's not that the facts weigh heavy on any of us, they don't. They probably won't have any impact. But the emotions way heavy on us.
If we never get anything done, than what are we doing as a nation?
Well, at least today I got a laptop up and sort of working. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'd need a drive with windows on it to run stock charts. I'm gnawing it over. It seems that those Dell XPS systems didn't really have the specs to handle their 1920x1200 displays. It's pretty nice though. Solid build. Speaking of the war. I could tell when I was taking it apart to repair it, that it had been done before. I guess the military had given up on it because there were faster machines now, it made me feel slightly better that someone had repaired it before, that they weren't just giving up on a laptop the first time it got shot. Doesn't seem to be any advantage to a 2.4ghz processor. 333 ram is slow, but it doesn't make the machine slower than an Atom Netbook, it's about the same speed. Picture that, a solid build, and a 1920x1200 display, it's a good deal for $40, and about 1/2 hour of repairs.
So, here's my emotional input: For a little while, at least, there's hope that we will be out of this war.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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"We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it."
You think after the first two or three - OK - maybe seven or eight - people would get wise. I HOPE they would get wise, anyhoo.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it."
You think after the first two or three - OK - maybe seven or eight - people would get wise. I HOPE they would get wise, anyhoo.
That's why you keep shifting and adjusting - when people tire of the whole Islamic radical thing for a while, it will be something else, and then it will roll back around. Viet Cong, Baader-Meinhof, Red Brigades, IRA, Al Fatah, Hezbollah, Noriega, Contras, Death Squads, Sandinistas, Shining Path... There's always a threat, and it's always just over the horizon, coming to get you. Last year it was illegal aliens. This year it's illegal alien illegal drug cartels. Next year they'll all magically turn Muslim, or start burning American flags, or start gay marrying each other and having serial abortions (worst breakfast food EVER!) while joining a union!
But whatever your fear, whomever your enemy, America™ will protect you. And make your teeth whiter.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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The Nine Lives and Deaths of Usama Bin Laden:
FBI: "USAma Bin Laden deceased November 2001, had nothing to do with 9/11"
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden
Washington Times report: Newly released Obama birth certificate forensic forgery
www.examiner.com/exopolitics-in-seattle/washington-times-report-newly-
released-obama-birth-certificate-forensic-forgery
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Bin Laden's voice heard on radio in Tora Bora fighting
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1365478/Bin
-Ladens-voice-heard-on-radio-in-Tora-Bora-fighting.html
Quote:
By David Wastell in Washington 12:01AM GMT 16 Dec 2001
AMERICAN intelligence agencies have positively identified the distinctive voice of Osama bin Laden giving orders to his troops in the mountains of Tora Bora.
Evidence that the terrorist leader has been personally directing al-Qa'eda forces confirms the widespread conviction that he is making his last stand in the cave complexes now under siege by Afghan, American and British forces.
Bin Laden's voice is said to have been broadcast on "very short-range radio", almost certainly a hand-held transmitter, picked up by an array of electronic eavesdropping devices used by special forces on the ground, spyplanes and satellites.
Al-Qa'eda fighters have also been heard responding directly to bin Laden, according to a report in the Washington Times, which quoted two unnamed Pentagon officials confirming that the terrorist leader had been overheard. His voice has been matched to previous recordings, the paper reported.
Although officials believe bin Laden must have known that he was likely to be overheard, the al-Qa'eda leader may have concluded that his only means of effectively commanding his forces in their final battle was to use radio.
We hit that radio, mind you - it's not that bloody hard when you have a place surrounded to use direction-and-range finding to lock in a transmission source and shell it.
Now, despite a good bit of retroactive ass covering it's a pretty well known fact he was on dialysis, but did it not occur to you that a portable unit requires fresh water to operate, and when we cut him and his goons off from their water supply in Tora Bora he was as good as done for anyway ?
The last confirmed tape, from Dec 7 2001 and probably filmed at Tora Bora, the old bastard looks about half dead, has extremely visible health degradation and appears to be struggling with severe physical infirmity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1729882.stm
So, we shelled the radio tent, which he was in because the larger radio kept the tent warm, and boy howdy did he like to hear himself talk, like most political leaders - he took some shrapnel either from the shell or the radio, and soon thereafter expired from respiratory failure.
This information was carried in Egyptian newspaper al-Wafd, Wed Dec 26 2001, Vol 15, No 4533.
You can find the screen image yourself easy enough, and translate it yourself or have that done, although I'd recommend against asking MEMRI to translate it given how "creative" most of theirs are.
So, you have his voice, confirmed on a radio that we shortly thereafter blew up - and then an obituary, and then, silence ?
Which goes on for quite some time, and then when folks start to wonder and question, a bunch of audio and video tapes come out, with debateable/ludicrous origins which upon close examination all are revealed as fakes or dubmixes of older content completely out of context for the language, and wholly inconsistent with his politics or beliefs up to that point.
The October 2004 tape was ludicrously, laughably pathetic, the perp in question didn't even look a damn thing like Osama, and after that fiasco.... nothing.
Not a goddamn thing ?
From a guy who liked to talk shit as much as Osama ?!
And now this - I call bullshit.
Especially when the story being told us keeps changing, the images (Thank you John, excellent work) have all been revealed as blatant photoshops, and there's ever so conveniently no body ?
No, I don't buy that, not for a minute.
Only reason I have mostly been pointedly ignoring the situation is that I don't see how it really matters any more, it's not gonna get us out of there, not gonna get us our freedoms back, and I am of the firm opinion when someone is causing a commotion in your front yard, the FIRST place you need to look is over your back fence.
Politically this
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DT, is this the piece you were referring to ?
Quote:
Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Wednesday, October 16, 2002
TEL AVIV Osama Bin Laden appears to be dead but his colleagues have
decided that Al Qaida and its insurgency campaign against the United
States will continue, Israeli intelligence sources said.
Al Qaida terrorists have launched a new campaign of economic warfare and
are targeting shipping in the Middle East, according to U.S. intelligence
officials.
The Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin
Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in
December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are
probably fabrications, Middle East Newsline reported.
But Bin Laden's heir has been chosen and his colleagues have decided to
resume Al Qaida's offensive against the United States and Western allies,
the sources said.
They said the organization regards the United States as the main target
followed by Israel.
"In this case, it doesn't matter whether Bin Laden is alive or not," a
senior Israeli intelligence source said. "The organization goes on with
help from key people."
The sources said Al Qaida has already determined Bin Laden's heir. They
said the heir has not been identified, but is probably not Bin Laden's
son, Saad. Saad is said to be in his 20s and ranked within the top 20
members of Al Qaida.
Earlier this week, Bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, was said to have
released a videotape in which he claims that the Al Qaida leader is alive
and functioning. Bin Laden's voice was not heard on the tape.
A senior Bush administration economic official said last week that another
major Al Qaida attack anywhere in the world could have devastating
economic repercussions.
The FBI warned last week that Al Qaida may be preparing for a major
attack. The warning followed the release of an audio tape featuring the
voice of Zawahiri.
Bombings in Bali aimed at tourists, an attack on U.S. soldiers training in
Kuwait and the bombing of a French tanker in Yemen are signs of the new
campaign, Geostrategy-Direct.com reported in its Oct. 22 edition.
The first attack was carried out last week with the Al Qaida terrorist
attack on the French tanker Limburg, a 157,000-ton ultra large crude oil
carrier, that was bombed as it picked up a pilot before mooring at the
Yemeni port of al Shihr.
One crew member was killed and others were injured in the blast.
According to intelligence officials, a small boat approached at high speed
from the starboard side of the ship and detonated a large explosive
device.
A week earlier, the Office of Naval Intelligence issued an alert to ships
in the Middle East to be alert for Al Qaida terrorist attacks.
Cause that does sound like what you were referring to, but has been purged from the original source as far as I can tell.
Having a halfsie AI makes things like document comparison/retrieval a good bit simpler than it'd otherwise be.
-F
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