Will religion become extinct?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, February 9, 2025 18:58
VIEWED: 8016
PAGE 8 of 10
I'd really kinda like to know where DT gets the whole "they were bumping like bunnies" thing from. I could maybe see their spouses, but not much more than that.
And that doesn't necessarily make them laid back or save them from asshattery, which they were guilty of. Oliver Cromwell wasn't such a swell guy when he had power over parliament (genocide is an apt term, he killed off a bunch of catholics, particularly Irish and Scottish), and we know what they did to the Indians when they got here.
The neo-prudence thing is fairly true, that came around with the Hayes Code. There's always been people perfectly fine with producing smut and obscenity (and I don't say that in a bad way) in all eras, and the stick-up-backside people who opposed them yelling fire and brimstone.
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That was my opinion. I hope that I don't have to be tedious and preface every remark on this board with, 'in my opinion' although I do note that someone has it in their signature, probably for that very reason.
I wouldn't worry about going that far, just don't say fact when it's not a fact and there shouldn't be confusion.
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I do find some religions undesirable, scientology for example. I'd feel pretty comfortable if it were banned, because I think it is dishonest, abusive, and a tax dodge.
To be honest, I kinda feel that same way... but I'd hesitate to call them undesirable. Even if I don't understand them and think it's complete BS, they've every right to their beliefs and I wouldn't argue against that (not that I think you are).
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Religion is a belief, not a race or nationality or profession. Not much more to say on that.
In that case, what if someone said Buddhism was undesirable? Would you consider that offensive?
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In my opinion , I do not really care what people believe as long as they don;t force it on me, either overtly or covertly and there is a lot of covert stuff that happens with religion.
Also happens with politics, business, and near abouts every part of our lives. I'm not arguing with you here, just saying it's often just a fact of life. Fortunately, we're intelligent enough to do our own research, soul searching or whatever and make our own decisions. Not everyone does this, but we all have the capacity.
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but nonsense. The puritans were a lot more laid back than us. This is a recent media creation, American neo-prudence is a control mechanism.
Oh horse shit.
Our history does indeed mention that the puritans were persecuted, but always dances around just how rightful that persecution was - them asshats wanted to turn back the clock to the damn dark ages, shitcan literacy, science, medicine, get back to the "good ole days"... uh huh, one might even consider them the spiritual forefathers of the modern republican party - AND they had no issue whatever with persecuting anyone who wasn't them, when they got here.
Hell, their asshattery was one of the REASONS our founding fathers were so bloody keen on keeping religion out of government - cause initially it was about keeping THAT one out, and it naturally followed that best to block em all, wholesale.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
Except if you read the writings of the founding fathers you can see, sometimes explicitly, that while they wished to exclude religion from American government they actually envisioned it having a place in American society. Laws can only define right from wrong and set a punishment for violating that law. Religion can help create a set of morals that prevent those laws from being broken in the first place. I'm not saying every religion does that. But, I am saying that every religion has the potential to teach it's adherents those lessons.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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...but some stand-up comedians do mock it, which I guess is a sideways way of saying it’s undesirable?
Not many atheists argue that religion is undesirable.Quote:
That and the tendency to harm others not of one’s own religion are the main reasons I don’t like organized religion...that and looking to a patriarchal figure to tell one what to believe/do, and to a human who supposedly interprets the words of that figure.
Religion is Government for the Spirit. More rules, more "here's a list of what WE have decided you need to do."
As to the Puritans being more laid back than us; I gotta laugh. We don’t do the things they did to adulterers, at ALL, and the persecution of perceived “forbidden” sex was huge. I wonder how many were burned at the stake because they didn’t go along with how one was supposed to dress, act, talk, think, etc. I found a “Yahoo answer” that says it perfectly:Quote:
Comment on another site:
Most of the early settlers were puritans and ultra religious and conservative. Their values have permeated our society. And since nudity is so "forbidden" the darker side of society has used it to make money, power, fame. In Europe, nudity is more openly accepted and hence not as much profit was to be had for such a vice. Why spend money buying penthouse magazine when one can just go to the beach and view for free?Quote:
I agree with that, as well. Also:
American's seem to have a bottomless lust and tolerance for violence and war, but when it comes to nudity, suddenly we're Puritans.Quote:
The fact is, we ARE much more tolerant of violence than of sexuality on TV and movies. “Bumping like bunnies” is a bit extreme and I’d like to see some historical facts on that, as well, but the concept that they were more tolerant is, to me, ridiculous.
We live in a puritan society. I mean that in the literal sense that we are in a society founded by puritans and that still, at its core, has some pretty strange puritan sensibilities. Some might object that our culture has gone "bad" apparently because of the visible flesh of women shown at an earlier and earlier age.
I think it has its roots in our puritanism. Our society has, perversly, always found legal, adult, consensual sex to be something far worse than the worst crime, murder. Witness our movie rating system. Loving, consensual sex between adults is rated X. Brutal murder, with blood and torture is rated R or even PG-13, shown in prime-time on shows like 24. Only in a puritan society is sex considered far worse than brutal murder and torture.
Happy, Quote:
I’ve long since accepted that people don’t say “in my opinion”, etc., when stating stuff. It’s offensive to me when it’s some of those who produce truly ridiculous things as fact, and I’ve said so in the past. But it’s not gonna change, and I think expecting it is a waste of time. I try hard to put the caveat in what I write, but even I fail a lot. It needs one to REMEMBER to do it, aside from those who put forth their opinions AS fact.
just don't say fact when it's not a fact and there shouldn't be confusion.Quote:
As a buddhist, I wouldn’t be offended. It’s an expression of an opinion, which everyone’s entitled to. If they went after someone’s religion VIRULENTLY, that’s different (been there/had that done to me), but just to say it’s undesirable? No. Whereas saying a race is undesirable, that offends me...can’t say why I differ between those two (and no doubt others), but I do.
In that case, what if someone said Buddhism was undesirable? Would you consider that offensive?
Ironically, just as spelling and grammar mistakes cause my eyes to note them, it bothers me (only slightly) that everyone calls buddhism a religion and capitalizes it. It's not truly a religion (no god), and it's not supposed to be capitalized except for the Buddha's own name. Picky, picky, picky. Not to say I'm offended, I kno
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Ideally, yes, Hardware, but my problem with it is that either the religion itself or those who interpret it decide what's "moral" and what's not, and all too often what they decide is "immoral" pisses me off and feels akin to the kind of persecution the Purintans indulged in (extra-marital sex, homosexuality, etc.).
Religion can help create a set of morals that prevent those laws from being broken in the first place.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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OMG for the last time I have no problem with your opinions. The sentence applied to me and said fact. It was not a fact and I objected to the word fact. You have every right to have the opinion I'm stupid, racist, prudish, lustful, sexist, intelligent, open-minded or the opposite. You tell me it's a fact that I (insert negative descriptor here) and you are lying. Simple as that. On this board, I am the authority on all things myself. I'm not perfect, but I do know what my facts are and I will correct misinterpretations. I hope no one was a problem with that.
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As a buddhist, I wouldn’t be offended. It’s an expression of an opinion, which everyone’s entitled to. If they went after someone’s religion VIRULENTLY, that’s different (been there/had that done to me), but just to say it’s undesirable? No. Whereas saying a race is undesirable, that offends me...can’t say why I differ between those two (and no doubt others), but I do.
The problem is you're not seeing these two as the exact same thing in the end. Which they are.
"Undesirable" suggests they are not wanted, unseen, unheard. Generally there are often more specific complaints about practices of said race/religion/culture that people would like to see "stopped."
With an entire race, that's genetics, people are calling the genetics undesireable, which leads to genocide.
Yet with a religion, often aren't people just as born with that religion and somewhat unlikely to change? Change in religion is more possible than race, but should they HAVE to change that religion?
So what happens when a religion is undesireable for whatever reason? Maybe it's because they allow money lending (Jews) and it offended the aristocracy because it allowed the practicioners to become independently wealthy. Maybe they're a religion that's seen as violent (Muslims to Christians, or Christians to Muslims), or they're just a different religion than the majority.
So what's happened to the Jews and Muslims? Or what happens to Buddhists/Christians/Jews/other Muslim sects in Muslim countries with extremist elements?
Same end result, you see.
While of course you weren't calling for a genocide (creedocide?) of scientologists, and it was just an opinion, and opinions should not be silenced for political correctness or any other reason, it's also dangerous ground to stand on.
Say Scientology is banned. There's going to be some people who will continue to practice it, in secret, because some of them may theoretically believe. In fact, as with early Christianity, sometimes perceived persecution makes a religion even MORE popular. What do you do to enforce the ban? Lock them up? Take their children away because you believe the religion is abusive? If they resist arrest, what if the cops kill them? What then has your opinion that they are undesireable and they should be banned resulted in?
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Hardware, the problem comes when those religions wind up using law to enforce THEIR moral code upon folk who do not share it.
Prohibition, some degree of the "War on (some) Drugs", Blue Laws, Dry Counties, Faith Based Initiatives, Tax Funded Religious Hellcamps...
Not to mention that most of this "Pro-Life" bullshit is just a fig leaf over attempts to strip women of their civil rights and stuff the genie of female sufferage back in the bottle, cause how dare they consider themselves equals, yadda-fuckin-yadda.
While I consider my own values superior (and honestly, who doesn't ?) the very notion of trying to force my values on others via the force of law fills me with abject horror.
Beyond which, I consider all the pissing and moaning about "Sharia Law" to be pretty offensive coming from a pack of hypocrites who unofficially, or even in some cases (usually backwater towns, and not all in the south) officially, enforce their own "Christian" version of the same bloody thing within their petty little dominions...
Of course, I consider those assholes no more the whole of Christianity than I consider nutters like Khalid Shiek Mohammed to be the whole of Islam - but the moment someone uses force or threat of force to shove their values down the throat of the unwilling, at that moment they not only lose any respect I might have for em, I actually cease to regard them even as a human being, because I feel at that point they've no right to that consideration.
Does it never occur to folk that some peoples morality might be radically DIFFERENT, than their own ?
Freedom From Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org/
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Some religions are just weird. Remember The 'Shakers'? Here was a religious sect not too far from the Amish, that believed sex was wrongful, and sustained their numbers for a few hundred years by adopting orphans, and recruiting new members.
They actually went AGAINST the will of god to reproduce, and be fruitful.
I haven't done any research on them since high school, but last I knew they went extinct in the early 80's.
A fine line between a religion, and a cult.
---------------------------------------------------------------- 
70's TV FOREVER
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Doesn't take extremist elements, just fear. As to what happens, just look around you, read the papers/internet, watch TV. Look what's happening to Muslims in America. THEIR religion has certainly been decreed "undesirable" in many places...which sickens me and makes me want to scream "What about religious freedom, you assholes!" The have all kinds of rationalized responses, of course, but the fact remains; Islam in America has been decreed "bad" and Muslims are being persecuted for following their faith.
Or what happens to Buddhists/Christians/Jews/other Muslim sects in Muslim countries with extremist elements?
Other than that, I see your point, but bear in mind I wasn't talking about banning a religion, I was talking about one person's opinion that something was "undesirable". Big difference.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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