Real World Event Discussions

FINALLY! Biden goes after Israel!!!

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 19, 2024 17:55
VIEWED: 9512
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NIKI2

Friday, March 12, 2010 5:42 PM

KPO:

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Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.{/quote]I concur. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen; between backing of the US and the ability (because of the US) for them to continue behaving as they are, I don’t ee it happening any time soon.[qote] Israel is DEFENDING herself. Not " oppressing " anyone.

Hoo, boy, do I disagree with THAT one! Israel’s actions stopped being defense a long time ago, and yes, they are seriously oppressing the Palestinians, in ways that are reprehensible to the rest of the world, but to which the US has long turned a blind eye. Admittedly, in my view Israel did start out defending themselves, and I give them full credit for how well they did it, but that doesn’t hold water anymore and hasn’t for a long time.

I got a shock a while back. Call me uninformed, but when several people on the website I run who are from England and Europe told me that one of the main reasons Americans in general are so hated by the rest of the world is our unqualified backing of Israel. I had no idea it was such an issue. I am better informed now, of course, and understand it completely. However it began, the Israeli state has become a “conquering” state, taking land from others and destroying everyone in its path, behaving in horrific fashion, ignoring the rest of the world’s efforts to stop it—and all because they have the backing of the biggest bully around: us.

However anyone started OUT in Gaza, Raptor, they deserve our empathy NOW. Whatever they did initially doesn’t change the fact that they’re being persecuted, pure and simple, and have had a “war” declared on them which SHOULD outrage any thinking American beyond belief. The horrors they live under deserve empathy, whether they’re right or wrong.

Gino:

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even Israeli folk are protesting these things

That’s the best thing I heard about Biden’s speech (aside from the condemnation, but he kinda tempered that, which is a shame): the applause by the young students. That’s a hopeful sign to me; maybe those INTERNALLY can do something to temper their country’s action in the long term; certainly not in the short term, but it gives me hope.

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Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.

That would have to be proven; I can’t accept it until it is.

Also, you made some great points. I, too, feel the same about countries who commit genocide, and Israel is only one of a long list of them. And I think Mincing’s point about making the case that “Jews have always behaved this way” is unsustainable...actually, so HAVE Africans, if you consider the atrocities committed there by various countries. Maybe the difference in part is that they’ve all had their own “homeland” from which to strike out or wipe out other populations within their borders. Maybe it’s because the backing of Israel, having so involved the US, makes it more “visible” to the rest of the world. Maybe because of the increased Muslim extremists’ actions globally nowadays, I dunno, but Israel gets focus; other places don’t. Simple as that.

You’re right; we can never know what would have happened when the Brits left (and they would have, their Empire was no longer sustainable) if it weren’t for WWII. It’s impossible to know, but I do believe without US interference (and perhaps as well the fact that so many Jews had to go somewhere and countries were tired of the influx, just as they are now of refugees from other places?), Israel would not exist. I don’t think it was any form of payback, however; more an expedient solution to the massive refugees, a political move responding to pressure, and land they were otherwise going to have to give up anyway. I could be wrong, certainly, but that’s how it looks to me.

Frem, I see your point now. You’re probably right that if we cut them off financially, politically and militarily, they’d be wiped out or start nuclear action, so lobbing a few to d

KANEMAN

Friday, March 12, 2010 5:57 PM

I don't think it's any of our buisness. I believe we need to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Let them fight it out on thier own. We subsidize both sides in this disagreement and we get nothing but headaches for it. Lately it does'nt seem to matter which party we elect when it comes to our foreign policy of intervention. I wish we would heed our founding fathers advice of non-intervention. I think people's opinion of us around the world would change quickly. It's not just the 700 physical bases we have in 140 countries around the world that is ill thought. It's the economic and diplomatic meddling and malipulation as well. Some times minding ones buisness is the right choice......

AURAPTOR

Friday, March 12, 2010 6:07 PM

Niki.

I'm asking for your help on something. Educate me, because CLEARLY I'm missing a vital piece of information.

I'm not Jewish, ( that I'm aware of , anyway ) , was raised Methodist, though now am a non-believer. I have no ties, genetically,emotionally, economically, religiously - AT ALL. I've known, grown up and worked with a fair number of Jewish people. Some I liked, some not so much, but I don't recall ever having any real substantive issues w/ either their faith or anything. That's not saying I greatly admire the Jewish people as a whole... any more or less than I would anyone else.

I do recognize a lot of the animosity directed toward them is rooted in abject nonsense. THEY KILLED CHRIST ! Bullshit! That's laughably absurd, for reasons I'll skip , for right now. But my point is.... sure, they're a bit different, and odd, but over all, I've not seen them act out or be anywhere near as oppressive as anyone you'd expect, from those who had to face what they've been subjected to.

In short, I guess I'm saying I never got the memo which clearly states that Jews must be hated.

So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this.

I'm not saying they're blameless on all counts, no one is. But I'd say the blame is weighted greatly toward those who want Israel destroyed, first, and not the Jews themselves. Blame can be attributed to one party more than another. In life, it's almost never 50/50. That's an idealistic and childish way of viewing the world, and one to which I do no hold.

I've visited and revisited this entire issue, on my own, over the years, and for the life of me, can NOT figure it out. Tell me, why is it that you lend more credence to the Palestinian side than the Jewish ?

In all honesty, I'd like to know.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, March 12, 2010 6:24 PM

If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.

I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are). Rather, there's a certain asymmetry in their relationship that makes the palestinians underdogs--no matter what kind of vile bullshit they pull. Plus, the vile bullshit that the israelis pull is really, really vile.

Ultimately, you are asking for a rational explanation for irrational behavior. Good luck with that. The best catologue of the irrationality out there is poliakov's a history of anti-semitism, if you're curious. but suffice to say, in the words of lehrer (who sucks), "everybody hates the jews."

KANEMAN

Friday, March 12, 2010 6:25 PM

Aur wrote...."So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this."

I've already weighed in on what I think our role should be. Now for Isreal. I believe Isreal(or any soverign nation) has every right to defend themselves and do what it thinks is in its best interest. You would hope that both nations would make the choices that lead to peace for their people. However, as long as it does not effect the US directly we should not care. What I'm getting at is they both have every right to behave like assholes. The people of both nations(for the most part) appear to be behind thier respective government's behavior and policies. So, let them have at it. When the citizens of those nations decide that enough is enough they will change their goverments actions and policies.....when school kids have at it for a while. After beating the shit out of each other and realizing no teacher is going to break it up they find out how to get along....

AURAPTOR

Friday, March 12, 2010 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.

I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are).

I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today.

I'm probably not alone in that, either. If the topic is specific to how PEOPLE have treated each other in that part of the world in recent decades, I'll cede, that it's likely to be all the more confusing ( and irrational ).

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

KANEMAN

Friday, March 12, 2010 6:43 PM

Aur "I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."

Banking.....it sounds crazy, but it all goes back to banking and religion two made up faiths....it's really amazing the absurdity of it all........

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, March 12, 2010 7:01 PM

"I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."

very good point, and one that i've tried to raise. i think that this is why i think its a good point.

banking? christian triumphalism? muslim triumphalism? xenophobia? no, i think it really comes down to envy. jews are just the most awesome of all gods creatures, and this drives the goy insane.

but in all seriousness, the current discussion of israel lapses so easily into condemning the jews, as a people, and vindicating their tortured history.

NIKI2

Friday, March 12, 2010 7:23 PM

I'll try to answer you Raptor--I haven't read past your post so maybe others have gotten there first.

I have nothing against Jews themselves; my feelings are about the Israeli government and its actions (something becoming more and more shared by the Israeli people). I separate religion from politics, "Jews" are people, the "Israeli government" doesn't speak for them any more than my government speaks for me. There are just as many people who want to wipe MUSLIMS off the earth in my country as there are wanting to wipe Jews off the earth in the Middle East.

I could never use the old saying that "Some of my best friends are Jews", because I never KNEW--I don't ask and people are people. Some have told me they are after the fact, but I refuse to use that saying, given its meaning.

I was in FAVOR of the creation of a Jewish state. Not because I believed it was "payback" or anything, but because it solves some very real problems, and because they HAD been trying to create a homeland on their own before WWII.

I was, in my own vague way, on their side until the past few years. The things they have done and are doing now are just as oppressive as what was done to them...in many cases worse.

To support them ALONE at this point would be as bad, to me, as supporting the things that were done during the Bush administration; there is a difference between fighting a war and making survival all but impossible for a neighboring country, which is what they're essentially doing to the Palestinians.

Yes, they have a right to survive; but not at the expense of the Palestinian people's suffering. I have ceased supporting them because of this, and I resent the unqualified support of my country, financially and politically...especially given that the support is largely self-motivated for our government's own agenda.

To me, this issue has nothing to do with Judiasm, it has to do with the actions of a COUNTRY, any country, which has a lot of money and uses it to do horrific things to any other people. Period.

I can't speak for anyone else. I've heard the usual bullshit, "Global Jewish Conspiracy", "Jews are moneylenders", and may more. That's ALL bullshit to me.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NIKI2

Friday, March 12, 2010 7:45 PM

Ooops, I see Mincing answered for me, and yes, he's (she's?) accurately answered the question.

I don't know the why of the question: both Mincing and Kane actually answered it in short terms: Banking, and looking for a rational explanation for irrational ATTITUDES, I would say, not necessarily behavior (tho' attitude becomes behavior).

You really want to understand? Read Michner's "The Source"--a fantastic book which shows just how irrational people become over the issue of one religion versus another, and how the situation came to be historically. It's fiction, but as usual with Michner a fascinating read based on FACTS.

One review by just someone who read it, not a "reviewer":

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Are you constantly perplexed by those "Mideast Peace Talks" that have (seemingly) been going on for 14 centuries? And still there is no peace in sight...and there never will be, of course....Well, Mr. Michener gives us a grand overview of the area. You'll find some surprises. Most notably that the Jews and Arabs used to get along pretty well. Not bosom buddies, of course, but better than they do now. But, I digress. What we have here is history and novel twined together in a fascinating way. Through the device of an archaeological dig, Michener provides personal stories of the folks who have populated the troubled region since prehistoric times. We have love, we have brutality, we have slavery, we have butchery, we have treachery, we have sieges outside the stone walls, we have a secret tunnel through the rock....and love again. It's life itself: messy but wonderful. And you get a nice history lesson along the way. Great book. You'll like it.

If you really want to search out some truths, you'll find them there.

Wikipedia tries:

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Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilisations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then.

If you want it broken down:

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Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be take

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