Imponderables: We're Them and They're Us

POSTED BY: nvghostrider
UPDATED: Thursday, November 5, 2009 01:00
VIEWED: 11035
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TRAVELER

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:20 PM

Hello Rugbug:

I'm watching Dollhouse. I get the feeling that Echo is Dorothy and she has landed in Oz and the rest of the cast are searching for something missing inside them. "If I only had a heart". I'm talking about both the Actives and the Keepers. I was surprised by Mellie's behaviour in the episode where she comes back for a check-up. It appears the Dollhouse provides more then just a large chunk of cash, but also takes all your troubles away. So I wonder if Adelle sees herself as rescuing the Actives from their past lives, both physically with money and a new start, but also having Topher removing any mental suffering they may be dealing with.
So for me, the show is getting more interesting. I also liked that Boyd helped out with Sierra. I hated his promotion and think he makes a great handler.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

ZEEK

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Silly me...I just went to the dollhouse page and read the ep thread. Would've answered my question pretty quickly.

I didn't feel it was a big jump in morality for Adelle. She's always been protective. Moral ambiguity aside, even the Dollhouse, in fact, is set up to protect the dolls within each engagement by monitoring stress levels, etc. If the dolls are facing stress outside of the engagement parameters, the handlers intervene. Sure, a doll could be programmed to like rough sex, and while in the meta-sense it's rape, it's not within the confines of the engagement. At the point that it whatever is happening becomes non-consensual, stress levels rise and the handlers are there to step in.

It might have felt like a big jump for Topher without having seen 'Epitaph One', but having seen that...it wasn't. It's hard to not watch informed by that ep, which is what I should do to be fair. I honestly haven't paid much attention to Topher and now want to go back to see if there are any other tipping of the cards with him.

I can't really remember Sierra's entry into the house except for them wiping her. I did question that the mapping/wiping procedures/machines have gotten a serious tech upgrade since S1...no more wires, etc. Although maybe since she was mapped already it was wipe just like any other post-engagement one.

I think after this ep, I will actually buy S1 and 2...something I wasn't going to do.

I haven't seen Epitaph One because I'm not going to buy the DVD set.

They didn't see any problem with Sierra during her engagements though. She was sad afterward which I would say is Topher's fault. They should have had him working harder to clear out memories when the actives were wiped. In fact that was her initial approach the first time in "Needs" (I think). Only Whiskey changed her mind. So, it's possible she's learned from that, but she still reacted very strongly for someone who seems to skate the line a lot more in every other episode. I just don't see her suddenly getting so upset over an active being sad.

MSA

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:07 PM

OK you really need to see epitaph one Zeek it changes everything..

WE have sadly, thanks to a tivo failure and false alarm resulting in spending hours in hospital missed the last 2 episodes of Dollhouse so we will have to catch up online:)

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:25 PM

Maybe I'm the only one old enough to remember, but the thread title reminds me of the old "Pogo" comic strip, which I loved as a kid.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

RUGBUG

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I haven't seen Epitaph One because I'm not going to buy the DVD set.

I bought it through iTunes. Totally worth the $2.99.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
They didn't see any problem with Sierra during her engagements though. She was sad afterward which I would say is Topher's fault. They should have had him working harder to clear out memories when the actives were wiped. In fact that was her initial approach the first time in "Needs" (I think). Only Whiskey changed her mind. So, it's possible she's learned from that, but she still reacted very strongly for someone who seems to skate the line a lot more in every other episode. I just don't see her suddenly getting so upset over an active being sad.

I'm a little confused with the she and hers...Who is reacting strongly and skating the line? ;)
Select to view spoiler:

Adelle has misgivings about the multiple engagements for Sierra, but she did allow them to continue. When she found out the truth, she tried to end it. You could feel her moral dilemma as you watched her cave to the Rossum guy. I think Adelle has always comforted herself with the idea that the actives have chosen to be dolls and that there are no lasting effects once a contract expires. Sierra never chose to be a doll, but Adelle thought she was making her life better... Sierra would also never chose to be with Kennard (sp?). I think that bothers Adelle: Sending Sierra off forever to someone she hates and who has raped her physically and mentally.

This whole ep is interesting in that it juxtaposes the Dollhouse with the rapist guy. It's totally allegory...The dollhouse and those under its employ are no better than Dr. Kennard...and yet in this ep..they are taking the moral high ground. They've just fooled themselves into thinking they're just providing a service using willing participants. The story they tell themselves so they can sleep at night just started to pull at the seams.

My biggest problem in this ep was Boyd. He was so sympathetic in S1 but more and more he's toeing the company line without questioning.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

ZEEK

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:40 PM

I think my problem is when Adelle called the doctor in and called him a kidnapping rapist. It's exactly like you said the dollhouse is doing that constantly. That's why I don't understand her actions. What made her flip out on this guy yet everything else they do is fine?

I can't tell what is making Topher flip out at the end. What happened after he sent Sierra out or her being a doll in general. I don't have a problem with either. So, it seems a bit strange to me. The dude clearly had it coming and Sierra clearly walked right back in and signed up knowing what goes on there. Why would he be freaking out so much?

RUGBUG

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:03 PM

I put spoiler tags in. I'm so used to talking about FF which is so old spoiler tags are ridiculous...but thought it might be a good idea here...

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I think my problem is when Adelle called the doctor in and called him a kidnapping rapist. It's exactly like you said the dollhouse is doing that constantly. That's why I don't understand her actions. What made her flip out on this guy yet everything else they do is fine?

Select to view spoiler:

Because he entrapped Priyah? He might as well have been holding her in his basement. Adelle firmly believes that the dolls chose their current state. She's got signed papers proving that fact. She's get November making her feel just fine about what the dollhouse does. November could even be called happy with her decision to sign herself over to the Dollhouse. In Sierra's case Adelle believes she was making her life better, making her sane.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I can't tell what is making Topher flip out at the end. What happened after he sent Sierra out or her being a doll in general. I don't have a problem with either. So, it seems a bit strange to me. The dude clearly had it coming and Sierra clearly walked right back in and signed up knowing what goes on there. Why would he be freaking out so much?

Taking a human life,even a worthless piece of trash like that guy...and cutting up a fresh body and chemically burning it to unrecognizability (I kept thinking they needed to do a Bones crossover.:D) is nothing to scoff at. Neither Sierra nor Topher...who basically sent Priyah off to kill him, think it's nothing. Vigilantee-ism is not okay and they both know it. It's why Priyah asks for the day to be removed from her memory if she ever gets out of the dollhouse. The only way to live with that is to become callous, hardened, jaded...like your better or they deserved it (think Faith and Mayor's assitant...less clear cut evil, but still personally devasting to Faith's character). No one should play God and chose how gets to live or die.

Why did Priyah go back there in the first place? Topher freed her. She should've just left She wanted pay-back, wanted to confront her demon, show him he didn't win, that she wasn't his victim any longer. There's beauty, satisfaction and power in "winning" in this situation, but she should've known it would end badly. He'd already proven he would go way past the line to have/keep her.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

MSA

Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:24 AM

Thanks for the spoiler tags... I will hopefully see the episodes and be able to check your spoilers soon
Ooh good idea on the itunes download of Epitaph One. You really should see it Zeek:)

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

MSA

Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:04 AM

NVG here:

Hey there Kwicko! Just quoting Patricia Tallman's Barbara in Night Of The Living Dead (1990 directed by Tom Savini). One of the few reworks worth a deuce.

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

ZEEK

Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I put spoiler tags in. I'm so used to talking about FF which is so old spoiler tags are ridiculous...but thought it might be a good idea here...

OK OK spoilers...

Select to view spoiler:

I don't see Priyah being trapped. I mean the first time he was tricked. Not his fault. The second time she walked back in fully knowing what was going on there. She choose to re-enter the dollhouse. In the long run they've made her life better. She's out of that guy's control now.

The guy's death was clearly self-defense. If someone comes at me with a knife and he ends up dead I'm not going to shed a tear for the dude. He killed himself.

Having to cut up and dispose of the body is a little brutal, but it was a necessary evil basically. They could have survived the legal process but the dollhouse would have been compromised. Like Boyd said you have to distance yourself from it and just treat it like dissecting something. Topher seems like the type who could do that. It shouldn't be something he "can't live with" though. If it was emotional at the time it's the type of thing that you'll get over after a while. So, I can't imagine that was the part that he was concerned about.

In the end I'm not sure the writers decided what he was being emotional about. I think it was just a "this has been an emotional day so let's have Topher act really worked up over it. ok go." That seems like Lost style writing to me.

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