Zero Tolerance vs Sane Society.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Thursday, October 9, 2025 16:37
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I meant I wasn't sure if there was research into comparing data in Europe and USA - and if there was how reliable such research would be. There are lots of estimates on prevalence of childhood trauma and estimates of how many people probably have personality disorders such as sociopathy, but I believe they are guestimates at best.
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One factor to this is how the social structure we "teach" in schools is so counter to the basic nature of humans that have had ANY primary caregiver attachment at all, that the contrary messages from their own instincts and what they're being taught about how to function and achieve in our society impact each other and tend to cause psychological aberration - and often as not cause we don't wanna ADMIT that, we find other causes to blame, medicate them, punish them, and in extremis, till recently, sent them to the youth equivalent of concentration camps, therefore out-selecting and effectively weeding out the most humane amongst us.
Your school system sounds awful, more awful than ours - if that is possible.
However, the evidence is that children who have experienced good enough parenting in their early infancy will cope okay with a variety of less than perfect environments during the rest of their lives. A bad school system may result in someone being poorly educated, but in itself, won't be a breeding ground for sociopaths.
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Magons, Alice Miller would have any relevant data if there is any.
And yes, sadly, it's a combination of factors, the primary of which is a destructive style of child-rearing compounded by a toxic social environment in the primary education system.
And that doesn't even begin to touch on latchkey kids/social ferals* or dysfunctional families, dangerous and drug infested neighborhoods, etc...
But we can focus on the stuff we have the ability to apply immediate change to, even if only on a local scale.
Most my own work relative to it has been torpedo-ing those hellcamps, cause they were the singlemost destructive factor and one I had the ability and knowledge to effect personally in a significant fashion - which is a net positive, but this kind of advocacy needs a healer, not a wrecking ball like me.
* I do find that many of those latchkey kids or social ferals turn out better than earlier or later children who actually had more of an investment/relationship with the parents - although there is some level of basic attachment problems...
But it's a VERY damning indictment of someones parenting/childraising skills when the child most lacking them turns out to be the sanest of the bunch, isn't it ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Magons, Alice Miller would have any relevant data if there is any.
Thanks - I'll have a look.
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And yes, sadly, it's a combination of factors, the primary of which is a destructive style of child-rearing compounded by a toxic social environment in the primary education system.
I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.
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And that doesn't even begin to touch on latchkey kids/social ferals* or dysfunctional families, dangerous and drug infested neighborhoods, etc...
* I do find that many of those latchkey kids or social ferals turn out better than earlier or later children who actually had more of an investment/relationship with the parents - although there is some level of basic attachment problems...
But it's a VERY damning indictment of someones parenting/childraising skills when the child most lacking them turns out to be the sanest of the bunch, isn't it ?
The evidence is that children who have been poorly parenting are themselves usually poorer parents, unless some sort of significant intervention has taken place.
In a lot of research that I've read, the overwhelming factor for a child's wellbeing during childhood, sadly, is economic. It means that children who are economically deprived also often suffer from some sort of attachment disorder with the resulting pathologies - although they are not exclusive to economically deprived, obviously.
I guess that's why I'm a big believer in welfare nets, health services, adequate funding for public education - a lot of which was established initially to support families with children to be able to live outside poverty.
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Most my own work relative to it has been torpedo-ing those hellcamps, cause they were the singlemost destructive factor and one I had the ability and knowledge to effect personally in a significant fashion - which is a net positive, but this kind of advocacy needs a healer, not a wrecking ball like me.
I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?
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I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.
He didn't say primary education, he said the toxic social ENVIRONMENT fostered in primary education. You live in Australia, right? You don't have bullying and pecking orders in your schools?
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I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?
He's probably doing a patrol or something right now, but when Frem talks about hellcamps, he's talking about juvenile correction centers. In America, there's a thriving industry for "rehabilitating" troubled teens.
A teen gets caught on a minor infraction, a "tough" judge, who often has been paid off by the camps, sentences the teen to the camp without a fair hearing. Or dumb family members sign the kids up for discipline or religious reasons.
The kid gets trucked out to the middle of nowhere, and the "rehabilitation" part of this whole deal is actually better described as breaking the kid down via abuse. Camp operators stick 'em in a cage and deny them water for a few days so they're too weak to run away. Another common method is forced marches, denial of food... I heard of a religious camp where kids were actually chained to a desk writing bible verses for a slice of bread and a cup of water per day. Think that one might have been to discourage homosexuality, not sure.
Frem would know better, he's done a lot of work getting these places shut down, and he has a lot of relevant links and proof.
EDIT: found one. http://reason.com/archives/2007/06/27/romney-torture-and-teens
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.
He didn't say primary education, he said the toxic social ENVIRONMENT fostered in primary education. You live in Australia, right? You don't have bullying and pecking orders in your schools?
We sure do. But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education - rather to a combination of genetic factors and attachment disorders - attachment being what happens in the first three years of life.
Bullying can make you very unhappy - but it won't have you reaching for the guns without their being some sort of underlying, pre exisiting psychological disorder (and the fact you can get your hands on guns - but that is another issue )
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He's probably doing a patrol or something right now, but when Frem talks about hellcamps, he's talking about juvenile correction centers. In America, there's a thriving industry for "rehabilitating" troubled teens.
A teen gets caught on a minor infraction, a "tough" judge, who often has been paid off by the camps, sentences the teen to the camp without a fair hearing. Or dumb family members sign the kids up for discipline or religious reasons.
The kid gets trucked out to the middle of nowhere, and the "rehabilitation" part of this whole deal is actually better described as breaking the kid down via abuse. Camp operators stick 'em in a cage and deny them water for a few days so they're too weak to run away. Another common method is forced marches, denial of food... I heard of a religious camp where kids were actually chained to a desk writing bible verses for a slice of bread and a cup of water per day. Think that one might have been to discourage homosexuality, not sure.
Frem would know better, he's done a lot of work getting these places shut down, and he has a lot of relevant links and proof.
Oh okay. I thought he was overstating the problems in the education system. yes, I'd totally agree that they were hell camps and systems of abuse.
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But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education
And again, no one was saying that. We're only arguing that the current model of schooling system and how children are treated by authority figures / peers in many school environments has a big impact on how they act. People can, and do, snap.
Education is good, the moment you start talking about getting rid of some form of public education is when you really start to see huge gaps between the social classes.
Also, not everyone who commits murder or crime is a sociopath, and not every sociopath is murderous or criminal. I used to have anti-social personality disorder when I was a kid, and a lot of psychiatrists consider that the same thing. Most I ever did was bite people and get into a lot of fights. I came from a decent family, no economic hardship to speak of, had caring parents, and have no genetic pre-disposition to it. Might have been chemical. Probably was ALSO the brutal nature of school and marginalization of "outsiders."
Our system fosters a me-first mentality, which cuts out empathy and makes manufactured sociopaths.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education
Also, not everyone who commits murder or crime is a sociopath, and not every sociopath is murderous or criminal.
True - hence my albeit flip remark earlier on about sociopaths being company directors. Many people have sociopathic personality disorders and do not murder or commit crimes - however, they share the similar traits of lack of empathy for others, poor impulse control and that inner rage that I referred to earlier as well.
While its true to say as well that not all criminals and murderers have this disorder,a large majority of people in prison do suffer from it something similar.
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I used to have anti-social personality disorder when I was a kid, and a lot of psychiatrists consider that the same thing. Most I ever did was bite people and get into a lot of fights. I came from a decent family, no economic hardship to speak of, had caring parents, and have no genetic pre-disposition to it. Might have been chemical. Probably was ALSO the brutal nature of school and marginalization of "outsiders."
Our system fosters a me-first mentality, which cuts out empathy and makes manufactured sociopaths.
Again, I'd have to disagree that the brutal nature of school could cause such a disorder. Attachment disorders are a result of that - attachment issues within the first three years, sometimes coupled with a genetic factors. Attachment disorders can occur in loving, normal families - but there is still some form of break in attachment - sometimes the causes are very mundane and common place, such as illness of a parent. Re the genetics component, - I believe that having a parent with mental health increases the chances, but it also refers to birth temperament. That's why you can get two siblings, but only one may suffer the disorder.
Without any reference to you personally, not knowing your situation and not being qualified to diagnose anyway, I can say that many psychs can be quick off the mark to diagnose children with 'disorders'. In my experience, we over diagnose and pathologise normal childhood responses and bad behaviour and we definitely over medicate our children to a barbaric level.
Some early features of sociopathy are pathological lying, cruelty to animals, inability to create friendship bonds in any environment, lack of bond with primary carer, behaviour that aims to manipulate others.
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I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?
Well, hellcamps, yeah, damn close to it - or at least we started off that way.
Within this thread here is a ton of background on it.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=39794
And part of the hassle of getting this issue addressed initially, was that it was SO horrific, no one wanted to believe it!
Big part of any problem with abuses of that scale, easier to toss it aside as the ravings of a loony than actually admit something so horrible exists, right ?
(this is also why predators get off so easy, the jury doesn't *want* to believe the witnesses and will grab at any excuse not to.)
But straight up, it's a fact.
http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm
http://cafety.org/
http://caica.org/
http://isaccorp.org/
http://libertarianrock.com/category/teen-gulag/
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
While now, today - this fight is on legal grounds, all aboveboard and suchlike...
People risked their freedom, sometimes their very lives, to bring that information into the public arena - I am only but one of them, just notorious cause I started this when I was still a potential victim for them, and "played dirty" from the very start.
Yeah, we have concentration camps for kids, right here in America.
And for a fee, you can have your own child "renditioned" aka "transported" by some unregulated scumbag like alcoholic sex offender Rick Strawn, who is suspect in conduct leading to the death of Valerie Ann Heron, who committed suicide by jumping head first to her death immediately after being transported to Tranquility Bay (now closed, as is Casa by the Sea and a number of others).
Want Your Kid to Disappear?
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/July-August-2004/feature_labi_julau
g04.msp
I have a particular hate on for these guys and used to be a primary source of medical bills for em when I'd catch em somewhere in private.
And my particlar nemisis was Pathway Family Centers, devolved out of Synanon/The Seed/WWASPS - which as of February 2009, have been economically and effectively destroyed, and as Pathway was the intake and financial pipeline for one of the larger cabals involved in this, without the money, they're gonna strangle, and you can bet I am immensely enjoying watching it happen.
And Miss Byte isn't kidding about rigged trials and sending kids to hell for profit, neither - this is far more common than the pathetically limited investigation so far, and I've been on the ass of PA state officials to expand the scope of it.
Two Pa. Judges Accused of Jailing Hundreds of Kids for Bribes
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491148,00.html
Congressman George Miller has been downright heroic on this front, as have the people at Protect.org (child protection PAC, our heavy crowbar) and has introduced leglislation, more than once, to regulate this nightmarish industry before more die.
(I keep casualty lists, but we'll skip em for now cause they're very long and quite depressing)
http://www.caica.org/GAO.htm
Current bill is H.R. 911
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-911
http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/1/hr911
Bear in mind the cost of this to Americans would be $1 a YEAR, for four years.
While we're pouring billions down the drain for war and bailouts.
Also, consider the dynamic here - do you think those merry torturers down at Gitmo sprung from a vaccum ?
Often the worst abused wind up clinging to these places cause they do use mindbreaking cult techniques (and have ever since Synanon) which were at several points in time heavily subsidized by the Government under the banner of anti-drug treatment - and eventually wind up working for them, finally getting their satisfaction out of being on the OTHER end of the lash...
I gave them the same hard time I did the transporters.
But everything up to the waterboarding (which they DID do, at High Impact) from rendition to isolation, sleep deprivation, all of it, we been doin that stuff to children here for year
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Fascinating story - what I can follow of it. I haven't the time to check all the links, but I get the gist. Well done for your part in bringing it undone.
I saw some of this on tv 'Brat Camp' where they sent British youngsters off to some of those camps - not as bad as you have cited, but still unethical, putanive and really not fair - given that the teenagers is part of a family system, so they should be doing any program alone.
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I think, in essence, it can be boiled down to the outright stupidity of the control model.
When something defies your will, use direct force to make it obey - as resistance to your will escalates, esclate the force accordingly till something breaks.
This seems to be the primary American paradigm of problem solving, as is as asinine when applied to children as it is when applied to a mechanical problem.
Although applying it to children can be verified as far back as 1748, in Versuch von der Erziehung und Unterweisung der Kinder - (translation) ((""These first years have, among other things, the advantage that one can use force and compulsion. With age children forget everything they encountered in their early childhood. Thus if one can take away children's will, they will not remember afterward that they had had a will."))
And for every bit as long there have been those who stood against it, Jordan Riak can provide many resources on that front, but imma share a selected quote with you about it.
To me the worst thing seems to be for a school principally to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and self-confidence of the pupil. It produces the submissive subject. . . It is comparatively simple to keep the school free from this worst of all evils. Give into the power of the teacher the fewest possible coercive measures, so that the only source of the pupil's respect for the teacher is the human and intellectual qualities of the latter. . . .
The most important motive for work in the school and in life is the pleasure in work, pleasure in its result and the knowledge of the value of the result to the community. In the awakening and strengthening of these psychological forces in the young person, I see the most important task given by the school. Such a psychological foundation alone leads to a joyous desire for the highest possessions of humanity: knowledge and artistlike workmanship.
The awakening of these productive psychological powers is certainly less easy than the practice of force or the awakening of personal ambition but is the more valuable for it. The point is to develop the childlike inclination for play and the childlike desire for recognition and to guide the child over to important fields for society; it is that education which in the main is founded upon the desire for successful activity and acknowledgement. If the school succeeds in working successfully from such points of view, it will be highly honored by the rising generation and the tasks given by the school will be submitted to as a sort of gift. I have known children who preferred schooltime to vacation."
That was Albert Einstein,
From Out of My Later Years published back in 1950.
The current vector of the push behind that force-resistance-more force model as applied to child rearing is nutburgers like James Dobson, who cloaks it in religiousity and excuses every bit as lame as the excuses for mistreating ones wife, just another serving of the same old candy coated poison pill.
A more chilling example, was Gary Ezzo, who suggested the application of this model to infants, a practice with proven links to "failure to thrive" and several deaths.
It's not that Americans are stupid, so much as they have often been conditioned from the very start of memory to think and act in such a way as to unknowningly perpetuate and continue the abuse-cycles of their own upbringing, and this colors their relationships with others both on an individual, and larger social, scale.
You can see it in our idiotic foreign policies, which are simply the same thing writ large, on a global scale, and in our "war on (some) drugs" writ on a national one, but the root factor is that they are conditioned to accept the force-resistance-more force model practically from the cradle and because of that conditioning it becomes instinctual, reflexive, the past of least resistance they will always return to when they run out of other options or cannot t
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