Tea Party 9/12

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Friday, September 18, 2009 22:33
VIEWED: 6264
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WULFENSTAR

Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:41 PM

What do you guys think? Does this momentum have legs? Can it be used to finally bring our government back down to the small, responsible thing it was supposed to be?

In other words: Can this movement generate the momentum to bring our government back in-line with the Constitution?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:13 PM

No. It's being controlled by the Republican party, and contaminated with messages that only ultimately hurt the end cause.

I had hopes when I first heard about the movement, but looking back on it, even at the "grass roots" stage the Republican party was very much involved, and organized the first few rallies.

Anyone who thinks that this will lead to revolution and real change in government is fooling themselves. Even if shots are fired, nothing will change, and all the tea party folk look right now to the rest of the nation like the right wing throwing temper tantrums. They have no credibility, no persuasive ability. It's still half of the country against the other, and believing that they can influence change THROUGH TPTB. Why has there been no crackdown on these people? Because they aren't a threat, they are firmly in hand.

For real change, it would have to be followers of both parties to stop following, stop listening, and begin demanding. It would have to be based around a message that reaches out across party lines. It's not happening with the tea party movement.

NIKI2

Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:51 PM

Byte's right on. It's a put-up job, just like the disrupters of the tea parties. It's not going anywhere--haven't checked the news yet today, but from what I see on line, they got about 50,000 people (not that many, considering what they claimed to expect), and those they do get are either idjits who swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker, some people with legitimate complaints, and/or lobbyist-hired ringers.

Quote:
The event, scheduled intentionally on Sept. 12 to coincide with the anniversary of the day following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was conceived largely by Fox News' Glenn Beck. Beck, the McCarthyite Fox News talk show host who has lost dozens of advertisers for calling Obama a "racist," is a relentless promoter of his 9/12 Project. However, most of the day-to-day organizing has been orchestrated by a now familiar set of lobbyists and Republican operatives who have helped plan anti-Obama "grassroots" tea party events since February. In addition, a set of far-right groups are supporting the event, bringing along self-described "American mob members" to join in on the Obama-bashing.

The top sponsors are the right-wing think tank National Taxpayers Union. Another top sponsor, Tea Party Patriots, is an astroturf website run by FreedomWorks staffers who have rebuffed members objecting to the march's logo. Our Country Deserves Better -- a Republican PAC that has compared Obama to Hitler -- operates the Tea Party Express, a bus tour arriving in DC for the 9/12 march. Other sponsors include the Heartland Institute and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, corporate front groups that claim smoking is good for you and global warming doesn't exist. Both organizations have received millions of dollars from Philip Morris, ExxonMobil and Koch Industries, the largest privately-held company in the United States. The American Conservative Union, another sponsor, is run by David Keene, a lobbyist for a firm that represents private health care companies, including the insurer HealthFirst. Many of these groups -- each of which paid up to $10,000 to FreedomWorks to participate as sponsors -- were pivotal in providing assistance to attendees of rowdy town halls in August and anti-Obama tea party protests. Part of their strategy was encouraging anger and intimidation against lawmakers supporting health care and clean energy reform was part of the strategy.

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/09/pr20090911/index.html

It's a put-up job started by Glen Beck. Need I say more? Freedomworks is behind it; quote Wikipedia:

Quote:
FreedomWorks Foundation, a conservative organization led by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, organized several groups from across the country for what they billed as a "March on Washington."

FreedomWorks funders have included MetLife, Philip Morris and foundations controlled by the conservative Scaife family, according to tax filings and other records. FreedomWorks is closely tied to its founder, corporate lobbyist and former Republican Congressman Dick Armey, whose former lobbying firm DLA Piper that he resigned in August 2009, represents Bristol Myers Squibb, among other pharmaceutical companies.

In 2008, FreedomWorks was behind the creation of a fake grassroots web site called Angryrenter.com. AngryRenter.com looks a bit like a digital ransom note, with irregular fonts, exclamation points and big red arrows -- all emphasizing prudent renters' outrage over a proposed government bailout for irresponsible homeowners. Though it purports to be a spontaneous uprising, AngryRenter.com is actually a product of an inside-the-Beltway conservative advocacy organization led by Dick Armey, the former House majority leader, and publishing magnate Steve Forbes, a fellow Republican. It's a fake grass-roots effort -- what politicos call an AstroTurf campaign -- that provides a window into the sleight-of-hand ways of Washington.

In December 2004, FreedomWorks employee Sandra Jacques was introduced at a White House economic conference as a "sin

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FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:57 PM

Ah, so that would explain why certain sites are currently under DDoS attack by IPs belonging to *.gov and *.mil

Yah, just like the MPO, and Carnegies corporate sponsored "Unions" - what better way to not only control your opposition, but actively sabotage it than running their support organization.

The MPO was supposedly a network (and I think the MPN is what it's called now) for military pagans to protect and assert their rights - and it was not only mandatory pay for play, they always seemed to be handing out contradictory advice which would land you in the brig and/or violated the UCMJ.

And then they fumbled the ball, once... just once, and the newsletters origin was tracked back to a branch of counterintelligence.

They've done naught but change their name, cause they're still using the same graphics, meh.

And the captain they sent to shut me up about it back then made the mistake of confronting me on the live pistol range, complete with some very aggressive conduct right up till it got through his thick west pointy head that I *WAS* at the time holding a loaded M1911 - he oughta be thankful the RO tossed him out before that went places.

It's actually EASY to catch out most false front and honeypot organizations - just track the MONEY.

-F

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:01 PM

Dontcha know Wulf that faux populism is a tool of fascism, and one if its defining characteristics? That's bc this faux populism depends on/ appeals to anti-intellectuals and know-nothing RWA followers who are easily manipulated by TPTB to mindlessly run off a cliff. It's ALL about "the authority" taking control.

Your best defense?

THINK, man! Stop REACTING. Think for all you're worth, and then some! Ask yourself "Who stands to gain? Who stands to lose" and, most importantly... Which one am I really? Not who you aspire to be, or who you identify with, or some ego-driven self image, but your REAL place in this gorram hellhole. Start by following the money. It will open your eyes wide.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 2:52 AM

Maybe you guys are right. These "Tea-Parties" are nothing more than a bunch of propagandized racists, getting out and spewing idiocy.

I want to hope for more that that.

I want to hope that all Americans, after years of b.s. and lies, of Patriot Acts, and forced insurance... have finally said, enough.

I want to hope that Americans are waking up, and realizing what we should ALL be standing for.

I want to hope that, no matter the source of your anger... based in war, healthcare, racism, socialism, 2a, ect ect... that people are finally saying enough is enough.

That people are saying we want our country back. We want our freedom back. We are tired of all government in our faces, and on our backs.

We want to be free again.

But, I could be wrong.

HERO

Monday, September 14, 2009 1:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
What do you guys think?

I was sadly disappointed by the lack of tea.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, September 14, 2009 1:28 PM

Without a doubt, some of em are, Wulf - it's just that they've no idea who's really at the rudder of the boat they jumped on.

Just cause there's a lot of astroturfing doesn't mean there isn't real grass in there, but the problem is that the bastards are in charge of the purse strings, which puts them in control.

That said, occasionally it *IS* possible to steal a march on them by subverting their agenda once you have enough cards in YOUR deck to make a play.

Case in point: The local business owners who put me up for city council, knowing the remainder of the members were gonna jump ship as soon as I started tearing into them - and their whole intent was to get themselves on the city council via a bypass of the elections process cause they were just as corrupt - they *expected* me to throw in the towel and drop the ramp for them to climb into power, in part because they bought into the same propaganda* about Anarchists most folk do and didn't quite understand what they were dealing with, which got them caught out flatfooted when I dropped the ramp to power ON them and bullied, cajoled and wheedled qualified folk who had no ambition into the job right overtop the bastards.

They're STILL pissed about that, since it made them look like the corrupt assholes they were, and I'll note the towns water main is now being replaced as we speak, which in combination with actually getting the main drag repaved for the bid I set initially, puts the capper on it as a complete irrevocable and undeniable "win" for the local population - I was betting that the economic crunch would eventually start hitting contractors enough that they'd stop holding out for ridiculous amounts of graft, and damn me I was right, although I'd rather have not been.
(would have preferred economic recovery, yanno?)

Think about it this way Wulf - once they let you ride the tiger, once they hand you the reins...
Who the hell is gonna make you give it back ?

I doubt folk will coordinate well enough to take the movement away from the corpies, but surely it's worth a try.

-Frem

*PS - Remember, the folks who told you all the "evils" of Anarchism are ALSO the same folk who sold you your perceptions of Hippies - why would that be any more valid now that you've begun to realize how fulla shit the source was ?

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 4:49 PM

Y'know... saying that those who are upset are being pulled by the strings is silly.

Yeah, the political parties on both sides have jumped on the bandwagons of both, and even used their influence to fuel them...(No blood for Oil, anyone?)

But that doesn't mean that the anger, the rage, the desire for change and hope for tomorrow is any less real.

Yeah, this go around, its folks like Hannity and Limbaugh stirring the pot....last time it was the libs.

Doesn't change the fact that people want an end to the governments overreaching "authority". Just that the ones helping to drive it have changed.

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 5:03 PM

What you're not "grokking", Wulf, is that the vast majority of Americans are NOT sick of what you enumerate...it's just that the minority are more vocal, more willing to stand up and carry Obama-is-a-Nazi posters and carry their guns to political events, more fired up by believing they're part of some kind of "movement". It doesn't seem that way if you listen to Faux Noise, but that's 'cuz they EARN THEIR LIVING pandering to the fruitcases on the right, so they talk like there's a huge national movement to stop the government.

But it's THIS government...they were quite happy to laud the last one and make it sound like the vast majority of Americans were in FAVOR of what they were doing...and that what they were doing was minimizing government, making us a saner, healthier society. Meanwhile, that administration was busy racking up the biggest deficit in history, increasing government hugely, and spending money like water to stroke "nationalism" and take us into an absurd war.

They were so right that Obama won by a landslide, so now they want an end to the governments overreaching "authority", and they make it sound like they have most of the country behind them.

They don't. Pure and simple. By far, most Americans just want to go about their lives and deal with their personal challenges, and don't give a damn what the government does as long as it doesn't come to their attention or someone fires them up to think they're righteous. It's human nature.

You are among a group of thinking people who decry many things about our government, some who are anarchists, one Taoist (that I know of), people who CARE. The vast majority don't--some of them are fired up to protest, some of THOSE actually know what they're protesting and why, but most of them are just fired up, their hate, racism and fear pandered to by the people who know how to pander and manipulate best.

Don't let this place fool you...most Americans will go right on as they have once the furor dies down, not even voting in a decent percentage. It's a flash in the pan instigated to keep things the way they ARE, nothing more.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 5:08 PM

Never argued that what those previously in "power" did was right.

However.

I will say this. Both political parties, the lefts before, and the right now... have been able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.

I don't think this is going to go away.

And, Im glad for that.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, September 14, 2009 5:27 PM

Quote:
able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.

Not even limited to those.

For all that Forquet is one of the most devastating pieces of hardware I've ever laid hands one, the real truth is that I've done far, FAR more damage to the powers that be with a less obviously threatening weapon.

-F

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 14, 2009 5:51 PM

Wulf: Hannity and Limbaugh don't stir the pot, I can promise you that. Do you remember a couple weeks ago when the guns started showing up at town halls and the radioheads all said a big "Oops"? Hannity started trying to calm people down with a "violence is not the answer" lecture and Glen Beck has a particularly annoying and hilarious message about how "turning the other cheek" will ultimately get these protesters what they want. Really? REALLY?

Yep, sounds for SURE like they actually want to change the system, and that they're not just ranting irresponsibly about mostly fabricated and taken out of context bullcrap for ratings, with volatile results...

Since they started on that, have you noticed a slight drop off in either the amount of armed protesters at the town halls, as well as a lack of coverage? I don't want anyone to shoot anyone at these townhall meetings, not even Obama (ultimately, I think that a violent revolution might actually be counterproductive to change, as revolutions tend to get grabbed and controlled by various interests), but I think that this backpedaling is about as transparent as it gets.

Frem: Wow, you succeeded on getting the road paved for the bid you wanted? Doesn't that mean you have a 100% success rate for the town projects you implemented while you were in office?

Better be careful, regardless of economic troubles, that kind of well-budgeted job performance tends to get people re-elected. :)

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 6:04 PM

My wife has said that words are meaningless...(granted shes always yelling at me about something, and I don't pay much attention to her... so she might have a point... heheheh)

But, I would rather it came down to a gentle, non-violent, restructuring of the government (to a more Constitutional, non-intrusive way) than some Rambo style purging.

However, whatever gets the job done.

And to those who think that the status quo is fine..

"Nuts"

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, September 14, 2009 6:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Frem: Wow, you succeeded on getting the road paved for the bid you wanted? Doesn't that mean you have a 100% success rate for the town projects you implemented while you were in office?

Better be careful, regardless of economic troubles, that kind of well-budgeted job performance tends to get people re-elected. :)

Yes, the main drag AND the water main.

Although some asswipe didn't secure the salt stock I had laid in for them and some other township who didn't wanna get reamed at scalper prices made off with a bunch of it, pffttt - who else would want it, who else would NEED it ?

As for re-election, given the manner of my resignation, I kinda doubt it - they were honestly considering civil commitment for psychological evaluation at the end of that till they realized I was maliciously yanking their chain dangerously hard.

They're happy enough that it all got done, but the idea of me moving back there gives them the screaming willies, bigtime.

The cruelest thing you can do to anyone, is find out what they really desire in their hearts the most...
AND THEN GIVE IT TO EM, GOOD AND HARD!

-Frem

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 7:58 PM

Quote:
have been able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.

I maintain that what is happening now is tapping into the WORST of the American psyche and manipulating/stoking it to act in ways that are truly UNAmerican in the extreme.

When did you see the left get people riled up to the point of talking secession; when did the left ever attack a Republican administration so CONSISTENTLY, daily, overtly and viciously as what is happening now?

Don't tell me about demonstrators on the left--they existed, yes, but they got clamped down on for wearing anti-Bush BUTTONS and t-shirts; nobody's clamping down on the guys wearing guns to presidential events.

What demonstrations there were didn't begin to compare to what's happening now, and this is manipulating the fear and hatred of small-minded and in many cases ignorant people to fight FOR big business' interests, FOR Big Pharm, FOR insurance companies, FOR continuation of the status quo. Does that truly make sense to you???

It's not about big government or the actions of the current administration, in large part. It's about the path to anarchy (the worst kind of anarchy, not the real thing), about "anything to further our agenda"; it's about riling people up with blatant lies to get them to bring down an administration without offering any kind of alternative. That's not healthy for any country; you better hope for ALL our sakes that it's not going to last or accelerate!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 8:02 PM

As an answer:

RUE

Monday, September 14, 2009 8:04 PM

For all that Forquet is one of the most devastating pieces of hardware I've ever laid hands one, the real truth is that I've done far, FAR more damage to the powers that be with a less obviously threatening weapon.

Do you throw this thing ... or what ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 8:06 PM

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 8:09 PM

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 8:22 PM

Oh, gee whiz! Only watched the first bit of the first one because it was obvious, and by the way, he lied through his teeth several times--either thru ignorance or deliberately--you've given us a perfect example of what I've just been saying: They're pandering to the fruitcakes, the ultra-right-wing nutbags, and here's one of them now to prove my point!

This guy is promoting scecessionism, so I can only assume he's ignorant of the realities of it, or so blinded by his own stupidity (as opposed to ignorance) that he gets a kick out of standing in front of a camera with a mask on his face blathering idiocy nobody will take the time to listen to. Oh, but wait a minute, I assume you DID, or you wouldn't have posted them...? Wow.

So you've got no meaningful retort, just videos of exactly the wing-nuts inspired to give vent to their wing-nuttery? Hooo-kay.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:13 PM

Imagine this happening in D.C.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:19 PM

"This guy is promoting scecessionism"

WHERE?

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:23 PM

That's no tribute, it's a bad desecration of "V"--my all-time favorite movie. He wasn't advocating an uprising of the populace, he was advocating a PEACEFUL PROTEST by them; he was willing to do the dirty work and pay the price himself. And to make ANY comparison between the current government and that of V is pathetic, truly pathetic.

Y'know, Wulf, sometimes I understand why people feel about you the way they do. It's like you're two people--one reasoned individual who is able to ask good questions and make good points, one radical, out-there nutbag incapable of debate of any form. Weird...

Now I have to go rewatch V and get the bad taste out of my mouth...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:26 PM

Just call me Dr Jekyll.

and as to my Hyde... well, he is that which is necessary to protect that which I hold dear.

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:30 PM

Quote:
WHERE?

The first one. He is advocating state's rights, but at the same time armed revolt. I'm assuming attaining those state's rights via armed revolt means he doesn't want to be part of the union.

Mostly it's just verbiage we've heard so many times before advocating anti-government sentiment/actions/etc. I've got better uses for my time than to listen to someone rant on u-tube.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:36 PM

Yeah, u-tube is full of shit.

But sometimes, its actually a good way for people from all over the country to make their voices heard.

ETA: Besides wernt you supposed to be watching V?

KWICKO

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:38 PM

And in the manner of Wulfie's typical "revolutionary", this guy also is far too much a coward to stand behind the conviction of his words.

I swear, sometimes I think Wulfie's just a government plant, here to try to drum up recruits for his phony revolution, trying to run some kind of goddamn sting operation on us. Problem is, he's so fucking amateur at it that nobody around here would buy into his bullshit. The same way Frem winds up the might-whitey-righties to throw themselves off a cliff and cripple their own movement with their inadvertent self-immolation, Wulf is trying to gather others to his own brand of armed resistance. Thing is, he's trying to recruit from people who really aren't interested in armed revolution, because while they don't TRUST their government, they also aren't willing to go down shooting and thereby make the government the hero of the day. Koresh tried it; didn't work out great for him or his followers. They could've actually achieved something, but instead they decided to open fire, at which point nothing they had to say was going to penetrate the mainstream media.

Wulf: the Hippies faced down lots of armed resistance, and except for one instance at Kent State University in Ohio, it was the Hippies who won, while hardly firing a shot. Actually, the hippies won that skirmish, too, but at too high a cost. Still, it was the armed forces that came out looking like monsters for opening up on a group of clearly unarmed students bent on inflicting peace and love on their fellow man. Go for your armed revolution. Those fail all the damn time. But an unarmed popular resistance is ALWAYS the way to go. Civil disobedience has worked every time. The only thing I don't get is why the Palestinians don't just lay down arms and refuse to comply with the Israelis. Don't shoot, don't fight back, just meet at the border crossings and sit down and refuse to cooperate. The Israelis will then have but two options: Talk to the Palestinians and work with them in a cooperative effort to actually move forward, or open fire, which will instantly turn the world to the Palestinian side of the argument.

Your days of armed revolution are long past. Even when it works and topples a regime, can you honestly say that what comes after has proven to be BETTER, at least in the recent past? Ask the French how their little revolution worked out. It always seems like a good idea, but then you've got a cadre in power who are clearly willing to kill to get that power - and why should they stop now that they've actually GOT the power? That's the part you tend to overlook: the "...and THEN what happens?" part of the equation.

You'd be better served by showing up at Obama's rallies and just turning your back on the man, refusing to speak or cooperate, than you would by trying to shout him down or intimidate others by strapping on your big gun to show what a bad-ass you are. The latter has been done to death, and it never had anything but a deleterious effect. The former hasn't been tried, and being that it's something NEW, it just might get the media's attention. "Why are you turning your back on these people, your representatives, your senators, your President?" "Because they refuse to listen to The People, and as such, we have nothing left to say to them, and will let our votes do the talking."

Try it. Worst case, it has no effect. But your armed revolution is guaranteed to have the OPPOSITE effect of what you're hoping for. You're actually thinking that if one guy stands up and starts shooting, the rest of the crowd will holler "WOLVERINES!" and jump in with him in support of him. It ain't that way. If I were carrying at a rally and some numbnut started shooting, I'd take aim for HIM and stop that shit right quick. And guess who'd be hailed as the hero of the day? Not the dead guy.

To paraphrase Josey Wales (a fictional character, mind you), everybody's got to have something to live for, but dying ain't much of a living, boy.

Mike

Old friend

KWICKO

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
That's no tribute, it's a bad desecration of "V"--my all-time favorite movie. He wasn't advocating an uprising of the populace, he was advocating a PEACEFUL PROTEST by them; he was willing to do the dirty work and pay the price himself. And to make ANY comparison between the current government and that of V is pathetic, truly pathetic.

Y'know, Wulf, sometimes I understand why people feel about you the way they do. It's like you're two people--one reasoned individual who is able to ask good questions and make good points, one radical, out-there nutbag incapable of debate of any form. Weird...

Now I have to go rewatch V and get the bad taste out of my mouth...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

Yes, Evie... Now you understand...

(Sorry, Niks. Couldn't resist.)

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

NIKI2

Monday, September 14, 2009 9:47 PM

No, you're right, today he's being an ass. It's like some days he takes his pills and others he doesn't...is that it? To respond to elsewhere--I'm not much aware of his racism, as I don't read a lot of threads whose titles I'm wary of, and NONE that are initially posted by PN, and sometimes I don't get far into a thread before I decide it's not worth it.

So I guess the only interaction I've had with Wulf has been in the threads where he's made sense, on the days he's made sense? 'Cuz today he's just wasting space on my screen and behaving ridiculously. 'Sides, I have a REAL sore spot for people who fuck with V for their own agenda when they don't "grok" it one whit. Grrr...argh!

Been here waaaay too long today anyway, time to find that damned self-control button and pull myself away (kicking and screaming no doubt). Maybe tomorrow will bring more interesting things here...and who knows, maybe Wulf will make sense tomorrow?

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:37 PM

Lol.

Sorry if the V reference upset you.

But it IS apropos when one talks about a tyrannical government. And yes, I believe our government has been sliding into tyranny for a looong time.

RUE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:49 PM

But you only got upset when it looked like medical care was going to go to 'them'. THEN it became intolerable tyranny.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:06 PM

Good gawd man, I'm beginning to lose all hope for you! If you truly, honestly believe we are headed for some kind of V dictatorship or something, there is no hope whatsoever, you are a lost cause and seriously in need of...something!

It's not going to happen, dear. Bush/Cheney was about as close as we'll EVER get--the pendulum invariably swings back, it always has and always will. America has many flaws, Americans as well and our government even more...but we're not that stupid, nor will there ever be enough sheep among us to allow it to happen. Don't tell me "it's happened to other countries", because we're not other countries...I don't believe it could happen here any more than Australia or Canada--we're young countries, without hundreds of years of conquest and oppression behind us, and we're too individualistic for me to ever believe a Hitler is possible here.

Bush/Cheney is as close as we've EVER come, and despite Cheney's dream of a "permanent Republican majority", look how that ended up? And always will. If you truly believe V is on the horizon for us...well, why bother? I'll leave you to your dreams of apocalypse...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:39 PM

Actually, in a recent thread, Wulf said he liked the health care plan except for the mandate part of it. I'm pretty much right there with him.

I think the tyranny of the government has always been here, but I think a lot of this recent outcry is the belief that Democrats are tyrants, but not Republicans. Only way I can reconcile the lack of outcry about big government during the Bush years. Seem to recall there was some during the Clinton years...? The last fiscal conservative I know of who ran for office was Goldwater.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:45 PM

EDIT: whoa, that was weird. Board glitch.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:46 PM

Quote:
Good gawd man, I'm beginning to lose all hope for you! If you truly, honestly believe we are headed for some kind of V dictatorship or something, there is no hope whatsoever, you are a lost cause and seriously in need of...something!

It's not going to happen, dear. Bush/Cheney was about as close as we'll EVER get--the pendulum invariably swings back, it always has and always will. America has many flaws, Americans as well and our government even more...but we're not that stupid, nor will there ever be enough sheep among us to allow it to happen. Don't tell me "it's happened to other countries", because we're not other countries...I don't believe it could happen here any more than Australia or Canada--we're young countries, without hundreds of years of conquest and oppression behind us, and we're too individualistic for me to ever believe a Hitler is possible here.

Bush/Cheney is as close as we've EVER come, and despite Cheney's dream of a "permanent Republican majority", look how that ended up? And always will. If you truly believe V is on the horizon for us...well, why bother? I'll leave you to your dreams of apocalypse...

Well, nice to know I'm doomed.

Niki... What does the "pendulum" "swing back" to? You think that Bush and Cheney were the worst our nation could get, then HOW COME we haven't repealed the Patriot Act, or wiretapping, or come out with a strong position against waterboarding and torture? Obama came out against it, but I've read testimony on torture from members of his administration that sound like Dick Cheney prepped them! I see hints in Senate Bills about training programs for the CIA and FBI named after Senators who have come out IN FAVOUR of waterboarding and torture!

How have we gotten better, and why do you think that changing hands between Democrats and Republicans halts the slow march to complete autocracy, if the wrongs of the past administrations remain for future administrations to build on?

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:52 PM

The problem is, you have to understand that ANY overreaching government is on its way to tyranny.

I think that the federal government should only have 4 roles: 1. To help regulate business (in order to prevent Enron type deals, and to make sure workers are treated fairly) 2. To insure the health and well being of the environment. 3. To protect our borders from unlawful entry, and or attack. 4. In cases of natural disasters, to provide assistance.

The local governments, on a state level have several jobs to do. 1. Provide the highest standard of education possible to all state citizens. 2. Keep the roads in up keep 3. SOME police. But they will be used ONLY for emergencies. Not as revenue generators.

The government, both local and federal should NOT be allowed, however to 1. Spy on an American citizen. In any way at all. 2. Create laws which are unenforceable, or are only used to generate revenue. 3. Impinge on a persons right to do whatever they want with their own body. 4. Regulate any tool useful in self-defense. 5. Be allowed to tax a citizen more than 10 percent of their pay. 6. Force mandatory anything (drug tests, healthcare ect) on the citizens. 7. Use citizen taxes to pay for any bailouts of any companies. 8. Create any law which regulates the use of lethal force in defense of ones self or property. 9. Send troops to war without a declaration OF war.

All I can think of of the top of my head.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:36 PM

BTW, Kwick...

Awesome "Wolverines!" reference... :)

lol

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:29 PM

Jeeze... did I kill discussion?

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

where have I seen that same kind of imagery? Hmmm...

It's universal: young men want to be revolutionaries and blow shit up - how do you make them think their way out of giving into such a strong impulse?
Any thoughts on why nature works like that? The seem equally convinced that destroying it to the ground and starting over is for the better.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

RUE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:39 PM

"... except for the mandate part ..."

And that is ... ?

If you are talking about "mandatory" (different from mandate) then I am ALMOST there with you.

I don't think we should be required to pay premiums to a for-profit company. If you are talking about the public option, I disagree.

While I would much rather have a single-payer plan (like Canada and the rest of the developed - and sane - world) the fact is that people who have no health insurance at all will end up being paid for by the government - that's you and me. If they are going to be using government resources, it makes sense to 1) have them pay a premium and 2) get them regular care so that they don't end up in the ER at much greater expense.

This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care.

Unless you are with SergeantX in which he says - everyone pays for themselves and if your don't have it - too bad for you.

***************************************************************

Don't die with a lot of fuss.

Just die.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:46 PM

Rue...

"This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care."

The number keeps going up or down, depending on who and what, political party, is saying them.

"Don't die with a lot of fuss.

Just die."

Wow. JUST from discussions, talks, back and forth over the internet (of all places)... you have become "radical"?

And yet, you would give ME shit about making a stand?

"Unless you are with SergeantX in which he says - everyone pays for themselves and if your don't have it - too bad for you."

Ive already said my piece on that in other threads. I think there needs to be insurance reforms, (i.e. some REAL regulation on it) not healthcare reform.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:04 PM

Quote:
Wow. JUST from discussions, talks, back and forth over the internet (of all places)... you have become "radical"?

Wulf, I've known Rue for a long time. Rue is a radical in ways you may never understand.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... except for the mandate part ..."

And that is ... ?

If you are talking about "mandatory" (different from mandate) then I am ALMOST there with you. I don't think we should be required to pay premiums to a for-profit company.

That's the one.

Quote:
While I would much rather have a single-payer plan (like Canada and the rest of the developed - and sane - world) the fact is that people who have no health insurance at all will end up being paid for by the government - that's you and me. If they are going to be using government resources, it makes sense to 1) have them pay a premium and 2) get them regular care so that they don't end up in the ER at much greater expense.

This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care.

I understand the poor without health insurance is a big cost in the medical community, that the poor work the most dangerous jobs and have the most exposure to illness, but are they really the biggest monetary sink? It seems like there are so many other sources of waste in the medical system, it seems like the money from cutting the other stuff, like this health care bill might propose, should be able to cover people who don't have insurance.

And regardless of these "exemptions" for the truly poor... How is mandatory insurance, punishable by law if you don't have it, going to solve this problem? Am I gonna see homeless guys filling out exemption forms on the street corner now? What if you don't qualify for exemption, but after a few years of inflation, you can't afford health insurance? What then?

I don't like the... mandatory mandate whatever healthcare. Smells like a scam to me. And if the public option fails, well, guess who's left, and who we are now LEGALLY OBLIGATED to buy insurance from?

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:05 PM

Lol

Thats the problem. I DO understand them.

RUE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:13 PM

"The number keeps going up or down ..."
And once again --- you are wrong. Over the last decade, it has gone consistently UP. Take a look at the chart - p 20
http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

"... depending on who and what, political party, is saying them."
That is according to the CENSUS BUREAU - not a political party - doofus.

"you have become 'radical'?"
I am paraphrasing SergeantX's position. It is not mine. I suspect you couldn't tell what I think by the fact that I referred to single payer-systems as 'sane'.

"I think there needs to be insurance reforms ..."
Despite the fact that insurance companies have failed over, and over, and over to meet the needs of people (though they ARE good at making a profit, so that makes them good ! <<< note: sarcasm) you expect them to somehow be motivated by laws to do better - rather than be motivated to create and find loopholes. You know what they say about insanity - right ?

But I agree with what SignyM pointed out - the insurance companies can't have it two ways, and neither can you. The government cannot be both so incompetent that it will never be able to provide for people, AND at the same time an unfair competitor to private insurance.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:37 PM

Quote:
But I agree with what SignyM pointed out - the insurance companies can't have it two ways, and neither can you. The government cannot be both so incompetent that it will never be able to provide for people, AND at the same time an unfair competitor to private insurance.

Right on.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:43 PM

Either way, the government has no business in forcing me into some kind of insurance.

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rue is a radical in ways you may never understand.

To me, the only thing radical about Rue is a zeal for coat-tailing posters like you or Kwick. I've never read much orginal content in her posts, but she represents herself as a rather good follower by repeating and supporting those she agrees with.

Radicals aren't followers, but every radical movement needs them. How far would Lenin have gotten 1917 had he not controlled a few thousand Rues to drag shopkeepers out of their businesses in Moscow and impail them on pitchforks?

Oh and BTW, I have a copy of The Worldly Philosophers coming to me soon. In these past 2 years you have led me to the conclusion that I cannot rebuke collectivists without at least attempting to understand them.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:06 PM

Oh, I'm not worried about the public option driving the insurance companies out of business. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they'll be able to break the public option with the help of their government buddies, and then what?

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:08 PM

... a little late to the partay....
really, i'm not laughing with you, i'm laughing at you...

these bozos don't even know when someone is jerking their chain..

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:13 PM

And this is what they talk about when they call Democrats and Libs elitist.

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:20 PM

dude, it's satire - it's parody.... the emperor is butt-naked... you know.... satire

the fact that the rubes actually gathered around and seemed to enjoy this little show... and even shook their hands... only shows how totally misguided some of them are.... if it weren't so sad it would be hi-larious....

SIGNYM

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:24 PM

Quote:
impail them on pitchforks

Impail? Is that like... putting them in pails? But where do the pitchforks come in???

(Sorry dude. The devil made me do it. Nmly - being a signficantly BAD typist- I don't even look at misspellings!)

Quote:
The Worldly Philosophers

COOL! I think you'll find it GREATLY informative!

Quote:
In these past 2 years you have led me to the conclusion that I cannot rebuke collectivists without at least attempting to understand them.

I think you'll find that, in a way, all economists are "collectivists" because there is no such thing as an economy consisting of a single person. So all economists tend to look at people "in the aggregate"... even Adam Smith!

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:24 PM

Or.

They enjoyed the application of free speech.

Even if they disagreed with it.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And this is what they talk about when they call Democrats and Libs elitist.

When I hear that complaint, it's generally from the poorly educated, pissed off that someone would have the audacity to actually know what they're talking about.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:46 PM

Lo Thanks for proving my point Story.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

No. It's being controlled by the Republican party, and contaminated with messages that only ultimately hurt the end cause.

Roger that.

It's GOP/Fox/NWO hijacking the Ron Paul Gang that WAS trying to repeal the bogus income tax and "Federal" Reserve Bank. The new "tea parties" censor that info.

But RP's Audit The Fed Bill is now sponsored by the majority of Congresscritters, and was forced out of pedophile Barney Frank's Bankster Committee for a real vote.
www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/audit-the-federal-reserve-hr-1207/

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Impail? Is that like... putting them in pails?

Ah yes. The good 'ole "point out the mistake in the post" gag.

Now you remind me of citizen.

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:46 PM

Quote:
the fact that the rubes actually gathered around and seemed to enjoy this little show... and even shook their hands... only shows how totally misguided some of them are.... if it weren't so sad it would be hi-larious....

A) Save your "breath"; people like him don't get "satire", they only see it as a reason to say something deadly serious back atcha to "prove" their point.
B)Hey, let it be hi-larious--you gotta laugh or you'll cry, eh wot?

Quote:
And this is what they talk about when they call Democrats and Libs elitist

When I hear that complaint, it's generally from the poorly educated, pissed off that someone would have the audacity to actually know what they're talking about.

Akchully, when I hear something like that, I can't figure out how his brain made the leap from the parody to what he said...can someone explain it to me? You canNOT mean he actually bought that those people were for REAL, can you??? Or does he see their witty, on-point demonstration as somehow "elitist"??

Thanx everso for the video, Dead, we never would have heard about it otherwise, I'm sure. Go Rachel!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

RUE

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:02 PM

"I've never read much orginal content in her posts ..."

Weird, b/c I've never read anything at all in BDN's posts ---- but you seem A-OK with that !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Lo Thanks for proving my point Story.

And you, mine.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:31 AM

Quote:

Radicals aren't followers, but every radical movement needs them. How far would Lenin have gotten 1917 had he not controlled a few thousand Rues to drag shopkeepers out of their businesses in Moscow and impail them on pitchforks?

Ummm... You know Lenin was a FOLLOWER, right? He followed Marx and, to a lesser degree, Trotsky.

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Or.

They enjoyed the application of free speech.

Even if they disagreed with it.

Yeah. I bet it that was it. [/sarcasm]

Seriously, when have you EVER seen the righties let someone practice their free speech rights if they didn't agree with their point of view?

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Impail? Is that like... putting them in pails?
Ah yes. The good 'ole "point out the mistake in the post" gag.

Now you remind me of citizen.

Hey! What the hell, man? You lettin' Citizen horn in on my racket?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

SIGNYM

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:05 AM

Quote:
Ah yes. The good 'ole "point out the mistake in the post" gag.

BWAHAHAHA!!!! Sorry dude! My bad! I don't know WHAT got into me!

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:06 AM

Okay, I'm late to the party but...

Byte is right, as usual. Wulf. Look at the name "9/12"? this is for morons who think that 9/11 was some muslim thing and that the fear and loathing society was the right reaction. In short? Cheney.

Nik,

Byte's world is less gloom than you think. Realism is healthy, and we are headed towards this sort of society

Byte,

There is hope, which is that such a society can never sustain itself, it will break apart.

What kills totalitarian structures is not the will of the people overwhelming them with fortitude and a sense of justice and decency... all that and a quarter'll buy you a cup of coffee.

It's their own structure that takes them down:

1. The only listed to themselves. They select the "finest minds" which starts them out good.

2. Some finest minds disagree with the plan, and so they must be removed, so now we're selecting withing that initial selection, and they're selecting for "loyalty."

This is more or less where we are now.

3. Next, they marginalize all opposition to the plan, so sure that they have all the good ideas, and a series of bad decisions are enacted (no, not there yet, I mean *worse* ones than we've seen.)

4. The plan seems not to be working as planned because they limited the talent pool. Unaware of this limitation, they find some scapegoat for the failure. These people are at least unconsciously labeled as "enemies of the revolution."

5. Having created the concept that there can be enemies to their great cause, that of the greater good, and their great plan, the *necessary* measure, that only *they* have the courage to enact; they start seeing these enemies everywhere. Now the *real* paranoia is setting in.

Yeah, we're not here yet: No one is arresting us for the stuff we say on FFF. In China, they are.

6. When you start cracking down on dissidents, you find that the most threatening ones are the ones with actual power, and the way they've created their power structure of loyalty, these guys are primarily *inside* their own govt. These internal attacks start to decrease loyalty.

7. Infighting arises. Not the partisan bickering of normal nothing govt., but maneuvers to assassinate and remove not just underlings, but their own overlords, appointees, and one another. This cycle is believed to be an internal cleansing process, but really becomes the circular firing squad.

8. As life for the totalitarian institution continues, not only is the power group and talent base shrinking, but more importantly, they are paying more attention to their own internal power struggle than they are to what it is they have power over in the first place. Without any sort of serious revolution, it isn't long before they've utterly lost control over all aspects of society.

9. The critical loss. Every dictatorship has it, and it's the single event that heralds downfall. Some minor crisis comes up, and TPTB send a force to quell it.

No, I don't mean Iraq. Iraq and Afghanistan were *started* to create chaos, and the US is not the empire.

But what does happen is that TPTB in their arrogance, oversight, and more importantly, introspective and limited thinking patterns, have failed to evolve, innovate and prepare for black swan situations. See "Battle of Leuctra"

10. The post-Leuctra collapse is inevitable, and nothing that TPTB can do can stop it, try though they might, and they will try. They will fight tooth and claw, but never evolve. They will cling to the same power structure, thought patterns, ruling ideology and social goals that they always had until before they know it they are only a footnote in history.

Sparta now is a suburb, principally known for olive markets, but the construction is a modern one, a few thousand people descended from the empire that once ruled the Hellenic world. The city itself can be seen in the foreground.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:51 AM

I think I see hints of the USSR's downfall in there. Probably a few monarchies, maybe an Empire or two...

MANGOLO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:27 AM

I was thinking about the irony in the kind of country that the wingnuts actually want America to become, all the things they wish for, free-wheeling capitalistic opportunism with little to no safety net, is what Russia is right now. The saying from the 1980's that used to get shouted at folks who stood against Reaganomics, "If you don't like it here, move to Russia!" has taken a whole new turn.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:28 PM

It's probably more that they don't realize business as usual plus no regulation would result in free-wheeling opportunism and corporate abuses. It's more like it's expected everything will go back to small local businesses and pre-1920s.

I think there's a better system than either laissez faire or government regulation, but that's off topic.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 5:39 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/16/health.care/index.html

It mandates coverage.

THIS is WHY people are so angry.

WHY is it so hard for some to understand that you can't FORCE things on people?

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 5:48 PM

Why would anyone not want insurance?!?

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 5:59 PM

Ok.

I would like to mandate that everyone, at all times, must be armed with a gun of no less a caliber than 9mm.

Or, I would like to mandate that you must all go to church, and that 10% of your income must be given to the church.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:03 PM

I would also like to mandate that you must give half your paycheck to me.

I know best what to do with it.

You silly little people just CAN'T be allowed to control your own future.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:08 PM

But, because Im in government it gives me the right to do this remember.

RUE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:11 PM

"It mandates coverage."

So, you prefer that people suck off the tit of taxes when they get sick or hurt and have no means to pay ?

Now THAT'S what I call brilliant ! (not)

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:19 PM

Lets be clear here Rue,

are they citizens?

And why does it, just out of curiosity, cost 80 dollars to have an I.V. put in?

ETA: What I mean is, where are the doctors willing to do the work, because it is just GOOD work?

The nurses who care?

Or have the doctors and nurses become glorified mechanics... but they work on bodies not cars?

RUE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:22 PM

"And why does it, just out of curiosity, cost 80 dollars to have an I.V. put in?"

Because the shareholders/ lenders/ bondholders own the business, and above all they must be economically satisfied.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:36 PM

Ok. I get where you are coming from.

But whats going to happen to the doctor who just says fuck it. Im not going to charge this person 80 buck to put in an I.V. Nor am I going to charge the taxpayers that. I'll just do it real quick...

You think hes going to go to jail?

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:39 PM

Quote:
There is hope, which is that such a society can never sustain itself, it will break apart.

What kills totalitarian structures is not the will of the people overwhelming them with fortitude and a sense of justice and decency... all that and a quarter'll buy you a cup of coffee.

It's their own structure that takes them down.

Some finest minds disagree with the plan, and so they must be removed, so now we're selecting withing that initial selection, and they're selecting for "loyalty."

.......

As life for the totalitarian institution continues, not only is the power group and talent base shrinking, but more importantly, they are paying more attention to their own internal power struggle than they are to what it is they have power over in the first place.

I think that's what's happening right now, DT, and I'm not sure it won't be the death of "their movement" long before anything else.

Quote:
I was thinking about the irony in the kind of country that the wingnuts actually want America to become, all the things they wish for, free-wheeling capitalistic opportunism with little to no safety net

Quote:
It's probably more that they don't realize business as usual plus no regulation would result in free-wheeling opportunism and corporate abuses. It's more like it's expected everything will go back to small local businesses and pre-1920s.

Right on, Byte and Mangolo.

I have nothing against mandated coverage, but the way it looks now, they're saying that the "restrictions" have been so watered down and the public option killed, while the mandate remains, that it ought to be called the "Insurance Company Profit Protection and Enhancement Act". I agree, and if Obama lets it get through that way, it's not a "first step", it's a horrible step BACKWARDS!

Quote:
Because the shareholders/ lenders/ bondholders own the business, and above all they must be economically satisfied.

Rue, you nailed it. Add to that "and nobody's stopping them."

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:46 PM

Quote:
Why would anyone not want insurance?!?

Easy, because no one likes a middleman.

The point of an insurance company is to provide a failsafe for catastrophic injury and illness. Treatment and health care for such an occurrence tends to be exorbitantly expensive.

If you can't afford the treatment, then insurance is a good thing (at least for you) because your health insurer is willing to cover a certain amount of your costs.

Remember, what you put INTO insurance isn't necessarily what you get OUT of it, your money doesn't go under a file with your name, instead it goes into a big pool, of which the insurance company is only willing to pay out so much so they can make a profit.

But for other people, it makes more sense, rather than to put a by monthly sum into an insurance company, to put that money into savings for just such an event. Less hassle, no denials.

Now, this only works for people who can afford health insurance or those who have the foresight to save money. Poor people below a certain threshold can't, which is why a public option is so needed. The government is planning on paying for this with costs cut elsewhere, so service will likely be at greatly reduced prices. Very beneficial for the poor, and a good service our government COULD provide (although I also think it could be possible to have such a program at a community level... There ARE such things as a free clinic).

What I'm basically saying is that the best, least money-wasting, most-cost effective AND most efficient system would be single payer with SUPPLEMENTAL insurance companies and public option for those at a certain income level.

Finally, getting health insurance companies involved for sporadic expenses less than 200 dollars for a lot of people is just completely pointless. It's like owning a 1,000 dollar car and paying 600 dollars a year for insurance on it. Pretty soon, that's not supplying a service anymore to help you fix your car (or the car you crashed into), it's a money sink.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:50 PM

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:07 PM

DLV: If they have to pay for it. A lot of the plans floated involve initial or eventual "you must buy it" programs.

Insurance is a tax on the people, govt. supported or not, and a strong tax on corporations.

It's useful to have, but difficult to manipulate. I'm slated for surgery on monday which I'm thinking of backing out on because I was reading about this japanese procedure which doesn't use anaethesia. Getting a doctor to refer me to such treatment will be tricky through the HMO system. If everything were truly "Free market" the people would have more money,* and services would be cheaper, but we could buy the services we want.

*I may not make much of an income, but everything I buy is loaded with tax. The amount of our economy that's really tax is appalling. If I buy a loaf of bread, not only is there sales tax, but the guy I'm buying from is taxed, his income, his business, his employees, for which he has to raise his prices, and the same goes for the shipping company that that delivered the bread, who is paying taxes on workers, fuel, the puchase of trucks, the workers who made the trucks, the workers who made the bread, the people who made the equipment that the truck and break makers use, etc. Ultimately, around 90% of the price of that loaf of bread is likely to be tax in some way.

When the govt. borrows money, that devalues the dollar, that's a tax on everyone, but particularly the poor and middle class, as they're the ones holding dollars, in cash, or in salaries, rather than stocks, bonds or international investments.

So, you look at the federal govt. and the state govt's collectively spending way over 1/2 the GDP, and you know that the investment banking big money is paying very little of the tax on that, then you can see how it is that we can end up with a loaf of bread that's 90% tax.

Just some #s.

The bread is $3. That's $2.70+tax. There's a buck mark up there, because more than half the store's cost is tax: salaries, property, benefits.

Most of the cost of getting the bread there was fuel, which is now overwhelmingly tax, workers are about 50% tax, etc. Figure this is $1, because it's <$1.70 if I go to the bread store itself, but that's also a store. Might be $1.33, trying to remember. So figure that the cost of production is maybe 70 cents. But the breadmaker is paying corporate tax, property tax, personal income tax for the workers, bennies for the workers, state taxes, so the non tax cost of the bread is maybe 35 cents. Just doing this in my head, but picture this:

An economy without tax. The layers of price decline this would have, all across the board.

1. So, roads, schools? I always here this argument: First off, the federal govt. does nada. Nothing at all.

2. Volunteer militias are perfectly adequate to defend the US, now just as when it was founded.

3. Schools are worse than useless, and if we had trains, no one would need superhighways. local townships and counties could float roads and minor infrastructure, but they could also become utility companies. Maybe this would mean that people who drove cars would pay a fee for road maintenance, but bread would be 35 cents a loaf.

In this world, cancer surgery would be a couple hundred dollars. It ain't sophisticate math, and you don't need to guess they do this in Korea and Britain, and used to do it here. Then if there is a better procedure, it would be maybe $500.

If some bill gets passed where I have to buy health insurance, I'd have to close my business and get a job at some pharmaceutical or computer company, which I don't want to do, it would use all my time, etc. But a lot of people wouldn't even have that option.

Edit: Also, what Byte said.

RUE

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:22 PM

"But whats going to happen to the doctor who just says fuck it. Im not going to charge this person 80 buck to put in an I.V."

The doctors who work for hospitals don't decide how much gets charged for which procedures. The doctors who have a private practice wouldn't be putting in IVs in that situation.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:33 PM

Byte, DT - yeah, I'm on the same page - i didn't mean to be an insurance corp supporter - This is why reform is so badly needed - call it health care or call it insurance reform - the "middlemen" are the ones putting up the huge fight - and lining pockets of GOPers everywhere - to kill any type of reform. And, the bill presented today by Baucus is "dead in the water"....

Single-payer, public option - Medicare for all - how hard is that?

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
BTW, Kwick...

Awesome "Wolverines!" reference... :)

Then you didn't "get it" - that movie is pure swill, and I was making fun of its pure, unadulterated stupidity. It's right-wing jerkoff fodder for the phony brave.

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Lets be clear here Rue,

are they citizens?

And why does it, just out of curiosity, cost 80 dollars to have an I.V. put in?

ETA: What I mean is, where are the doctors willing to do the work, because it is just GOOD work?

The nurses who care?

Or have the doctors and nurses become glorified mechanics... but they work on bodies not cars?

I thought you believed in the capitalist system? Aren't they just good capitalists if they can get paid that much to do what they do? Hell, how is throwing a ball through a hoop worth $120 million? Whose life did it save to do that? How is society better?

You ALMOST sound socialist there, Wulfie. I guess it's okay when it's YOU deciding who gets paid what, huh?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
But, because Im in government it gives me the right to do this remember.

How do you figure? You should really look into that "practice", because it never actually existed, at least not in any way remotely similar to the way that movie portrayed it.

Why do you seem to get all your "facts" from shitty movies, Wulf?

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok. I get where you are coming from.

But whats going to happen to the doctor who just says fuck it. Im not going to charge this person 80 buck to put in an I.V. Nor am I going to charge the taxpayers that. I'll just do it real quick...

You think hes going to go to jail?

No. He's going to go to debtor's prison. At least under the current system, he is.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:39 AM

Wulf
9/12 is a celebration of extreme unchecked executive power created by the govt. Don't you see the contradiction? You're being played.

Mike,
Well, they didn't really rape the wives, but they did kill them, and many others, it was a massacre, perpetually. The romans became the brits, and the brits became us. A popsicle to whoever can tell me who became the romans

KWICKO

Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:16 PM

Quote:
A popsicle to whoever can tell me who became the romans.

Depends on what you mean by "became"...

In terms of power and empire, the Carthaginians. The Romans supplanted them after three Punic wars, which resulted in Carthage being ground into the dust of history.

In terms of who actually BECAME the Romans, it started out as a loose collective of city-states. Rome, Turin (Torino), Tuscany, etc., banding together to fight a common enemy, and evolving into a solid empire.

That's the very broadest of strokes, but it gives a general sense of it.

Can you mail me the popsicle?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

BYTEMITE

Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:48 PM

Dammit, one got damaged.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:20 PM

"Why do you seem to get all your "facts" from shitty movies, Wulf?"

What? Braveheart, 300, the Patriot, Prince of Thieves,... these were "shitty movies"? Really?

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mangolo:

If this isn't the most frightening and sad thing I've seen in a long time... angry people who don't even know what they're angry about.

THIS is what we should be protesting... we should have had a 9/13 rally and marched on the marchers, Bag the Tea Party. These people have TOO MUCH freedom. As much as some of you want to rail against Gubmint I give you exhibit A against We, The People.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

NIKI2

Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:15 PM

The were Hollywodized fantasies. They're not bad ENTERTAINMENT, they're bad realities. Read books, several on each subject, to get as close to the real FACTS as possible. Those movies portrayed lovely concepts, but they didn't portray REALITY. They're dramatized sound bites, and rarely portray what really happened, or even COULD happen.

Maybe that's part of the problem; maybe you believe in the black-and-white concepts portrayed this way, but don't see the subtle grays of how such things really happened, I dunno. But putting up these clips to make some kind of point actually makes no point at all, in its way it merely says "this is what I believe in, a fantasy created by entertainers to portray a simplified version of what really happened (or might have)".

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

KWICKO

Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Dammit, one got damaged.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!

I *LOVE* OtterPops! And I appreciate the thought.

KWICKO

Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Why do you seem to get all your "facts" from shitty movies, Wulf?"

What? Braveheart, 300, the Patriot, Prince of Thieves,... these were "shitty movies"? Really?

As far as *historical* movies go, absolutely. They are very loosely BASED on facts, but they aren't really factual in and of themselves.

"300" I found entertaining, though, but I wouldn't base my life's philosophy around it or anything. Prince of Thieves is an abysmally shitty movie. I walked out on that piece of garbage.

Oh, and as far as historical movies go, you should really check out "A Man For All Seasons" sometime. It's fairly accurate, historically, in its presentation of the facts of it, but it does paint a rather too-charming, too-perfect portrait of Sir Thomas More. I don't admire his beliefs, but I *DO* admire that he was willing to die for them.

That reminds me - did YOU go to the 9/12 rally? And if not, why not?

And why do you suppose Glenn Beck, who started this whole "9/12" mess, didn't show up? Remember him? He's the one who wanted us all to remember how we felt the day after 9/11, and recapture that feeling and spirit. So he wants us all to be terrified, watching the skies, huddled in fear? Or was he referring to the way we all went around on 9/11 and the days immediately after calling the President a socialist, an illegal alien, a monster, and comparing him to Hitler? Was THAT the feeling he was going for? If so, then "Mission Accomplished!"

DREAMTROVE

Friday, September 18, 2009 1:46 AM

It's a simple series: In the sense that the romans became the brits, and the brits us.

NIKI2

Friday, September 18, 2009 5:29 PM

Oh, my, someone who not only remembers "A Man for all Seasons", but appreciated how closely they stayed within the "facts"...compared to other Hollywood productions, of course.

Thank you. I thought that had disappeared into obscurity, and it's always been a movie I highly respected.

I know it was twisted and turned, but how about "Becket"? What did you think of that? For me, it was my all-time favorite movie for decades, until "Dances with Wolves" and "Color of Purple" came along...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

KWICKO

Friday, September 18, 2009 6:10 PM

Ya know, I have not actually watched Becket. And I've got it on DVD. I burned it off Turner Classics a while back, but haven't gotten around to watching it yet.

If you liked A Man For All Seasons, check out The Tudors (from Showtime). It's a bit of a different look at the era and the inner workings of the royal court of the time. Doesn't paint nearly as pretty a picture of More, but there are scenes that are lifted nearly word-for-word from that earlier movie. It's a series, so gets to delve much deeper into the interpersonal relationships involved.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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