Getting scarier and scarier... TONYT- for you. Signy
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 14:11
VIEWED: 19297
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Quote:The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom.
I would much rather prevent a fascist police-state then try to fight it once it's taken control. But make no mistake, if I'm backed into that kind of corner, I will fight.
BTW I find all this talk about "they" and "them" to be indicative of a paranoid state. Are you?
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WULF: You're not a libertarian of any sort, you're just a scared man with a gun.
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Quote:
They've been trying to disarm us for years, contrary to the second ammendment, and they haven't managed to do much...yet. My problem is that I see it going down that road. The current political climate worries me. It keeps getting uglier and uglier out there.
Define "they".
Also, "they" had their best shot, with the "Assault" Weapons Ban, which didn't work and didn't accomplish a single thing, except to drive up the price of so-called "assault weapons" and create a thriving grey-market in "pre-ban" rifles and magazines.
That "ban" - which wasn't really a ban at all, but a band-aid - expired, and was allowed to die. Since then, even the Democrats, the afore-mentioned "them" whom you speak of as trying to disarm you, even they have said there is no political will to try to even extend that weak-kneed piece of legislation. Harry Reid, the milkiest of milquetoasts, flat-out said "NO" when asked if he'd support a new AWB. Nancy Pelosi, the freaking poster child of every right-wing gun nut out there when they speak of the "them" who are trying to disarm America, was asked about a new AWB, and her response? "We need to enforce the laws we already have."
Now, there WAS a revamped, renewed Assault Weapons Ban that was proposed last year. You know what you never hear about that one? It was proposed and cosponsored by four REPUBLICAN Representatives. Also, it never got out of committee, and died there without ever coming to the floor.
Those nefarious "they" who you think are trying to disarm you? It seems a good number of them are within the Republican party, and have nothing to do with Obama or the Democrats.
Now, if you WANT to be disarmed, I'd say keep encouraging people to take their semi-auto rifles to Town Hall meetings and Presidential appearances. It'll all go really well up until one of them "accidentally" shoots somebody, at which time there WILL be the political will to do something about it, and the issue will be forced, and you will not have the upper hand in that argument. You can be smart about your gun rights, and you can be the bigger man, but you can also bet that there's going to be some jackass who is going to get stupid with his, and he's going to spoil the whole party for everybody.
I'm just sayin'.
And with that, I've written yet another novel-length post for you to slog through.
Mike
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom.
I would much rather prevent a fascist police-state then try to fight it once it's taken control. But make no mistake, if I'm backed into that kind of corner, I will fight.
BTW I find all this talk about "they" and "them" to be indicative of a paranoid state. Are you?
I am a little paranoid, yes. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the aren't out to get you. BTW, "they" and "them" are used to mean "people not me," it's more of a convenience thing. What should I say instead?
Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
They've been trying to disarm us for years, contrary to the second ammendment, and they haven't managed to do much...yet. My problem is that I see it going down that road. The current political climate worries me. It keeps getting uglier and uglier out there.
Define "they".
Also, "they" had their best shot, with the "Assault" Weapons Ban, which didn't work and didn't accomplish a single thing, except to drive up the price of so-called "assault weapons" and create a thriving grey-market in "pre-ban" rifles and magazines.
That "ban" - which wasn't really a ban at all, but a band-aid - expired, and was allowed to die. Since then, even the Democrats, the afore-mentioned "them" whom you speak of as trying to disarm you, even they have said there is no political will to try to even extend that weak-kneed piece of legislation. Harry Reid, the milkiest of milquetoasts, flat-out said "NO" when asked if he'd support a new AWB. Nancy Pelosi, the freaking poster child of every right-wing gun nut out there when they speak of the "them" who are trying to disarm America, was asked about a new AWB, and her response? "We need to enforce the laws we already have."
Now, there WAS a revamped, renewed Assault Weapons Ban that was proposed last year. You know what you never hear about that one? It was proposed and cosponsored by four REPUBLICAN Representatives. Also, it never got out of committee, and died there without ever coming to the floor.
Those nefarious "they" who you think are trying to disarm you? It seems a good number of them are within the Republican party, and have nothing to do with Obama or the Democrats.
Now, if you WANT to be disarmed, I'd say keep encouraging people to take their semi-auto rifles to Town Hall meetings and Presidential appearances. It'll all go really well up until one of them "accidentally" shoots somebody, at which time there WILL be the political will to do something about it, and the issue will be forced, and you will not have the upper hand in that argument. You can be smart about your gun rights, and you can be the bigger man, but you can also bet that there's going to be some jackass who is going to get stupid with his, and he's going to spoil the whole party for everybody.
I'm just sayin'.
And with that, I've written yet another novel-length post for you to slog through.
Mike
I'm not exactly prancing around with a gun on my hip! And I was always taught that you never, ever draw unless you plan to shoot, and never, ever shoot unless you plan to kill. I'm pretty sure I can be trusted not to be the jackass that gets everyone else into trouble.
There are some scary republicans out there, who ever said the dems had the market cornered? Wasn't me. I'm anti-politician in general. If we keep dividing down that line, we really are in trouble. They're all fucktards. Didn't I already say that somewhere?
Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!
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When I say "they," I mean one of three things (or all). I mean the industrial military complex, of which I consider the CIA, FBI, and homeland security part of. I mean corporations and their lobbyists. And I mean the people in the parties who dictate party policy who are under the sway of the other two.
However, I am quite possibly paranoid. Thanks for noticing!
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Quote:
However, I am quite possibly paranoid. Thanks for noticing!
Yes but is it really paranoia when 'they' are proveably and demonstrably out to get you, if not exactly individually and personally ?
You're smarter than folk take you for, in fact, smarter than you give yourself credit for - and the fact that you "can see the bars" so damned accurately without needing it pointed out has encouraged me to share some tradecraft info with you on the assumption you'll comprehend all the implications.
You ever wonder why I support and occasionally backstop PN in light of the obvious evidence he's stark raving bonkers ?
Cause folk like him are absolutely an integral part of defense against the powers that be, and I don't mean it in the classic canary in the coal mine fashion, but rather something a bit more complex than that.
See, there's a game here, played in the shadows, the grey area between law and chaos, outside the view or reach of most of society, and both the rules, such as they are, and the players are well known to each other if not by exact identity - you suspected as much, had to in order to make the conclusions you already have, and WHY I am telling you should be obvious as well.
Now, that said - it's no secret that the powers that be come up with some damned wacky (Google: Acoustic Kitty), or downright evil (See also: NORTHWOODS) stuff at times, and given the history above are not whatever shy about using any of it on their so-called protectees.
Lemme explain how this works, in detail, so you comprehend the necessary role folks like PN play in the game.
PTB come up with a psycho plan, and someone on the other side catches wind of it - now there's no way they can come right out without exposing themselves and/or how that information was obtained, plus there's what we call the "Bigfoot" factor - when info is so awful, over the top, or downright insane that no one will believe it and will instantly mentally shitcan it right in there with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, evidence notwithstanding.
That's why predatory abusers use satanic trappings, cause it helps discredit the testimony of the witnesses to folks looking for ANY excuse not to believe such awfulness of other people, and sadly it works cause it plays to psychological blind spots - a method I understand all too well cause it happens to be my own specialty, exploiting those blind spots to remain all but invisible, even in person - who notices one more cab in the city, one more lab coat at a hospital, or one more general background functionary, yes ?
And so, the details of the psycho plan get fed to the lunatic fringe, many of which ain't lunatic at all, but I'll get to that shortly - and they of course ring the bells, bang the drums and bring out all the hoo-hah about it.
Now TPB can't *use* the plan, nor can they shut the loons up about it cause either one would give credence to what they are saying, you see, especially if the details are given and names are named when the loons roll on about it.
And since it DOESN'T ever happen, then it's just one more flimsy conspiracy theory that gets discarded as pure bunk by the masses and does no wonders for the credibility of the lunatic fringe neither, cause it never came to be.
But without those loons, it MIGHT have, and that is the salient point.
PN is bonkers, I'll give that, but not anywhere NEAR as bonkers as he seems to be - it's just that he doesn't dare ever get taken too seriously cause then his usefulness for that role would be over, and if he kept pushing it, he'd "have to go" in a Gary Webb-esque suicide with two different handguns to the head kinda way, you understand ?
There's also that TPB and their agents are quite good at this, and getting ones hands on the hard evidence is risky, dangerous, potentially fatal and even if you had the crown jewels in hand who the hell would dare run the story when all the major media is in their pocket and the smaller media is scared of them on so many levels ?
So all too often all you have are rumors and a few s
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Frem
Nah, when they're actually after you, it's just annoya. I don't know if John is bonkers, or if it's that I'm either too bonkers or too used to it to notice. Occassionally I think he's wrong. But then so aren't we all.
TBTP seem quite able to shout down conspiracies involving straightforward logic and research like 9-11, re: northwoods. I'm not sure the satanic trappings are for our sake. I mean, it's possible but that doesn't mean it must be so. A friend of mine has a theory which he calls minion awe. He suggests the rituals, giant statues, whatever are done for the benefit of the incoming inductees. It makes it feel like you're stepping into a giant illuminati that you would never want to fight, far more than if they invited you over to their office and had cheese and crackers would. The illusion of underworld magic needs to be maintained or their own subjects might question. If they remain in awe, your power is fairly secure. I think this is more like the manner in which the Manson Family was run. No one was actually hypnotized, but they did believe he was in touch with god, the devil, etc. At least one of them thought he was Jesus.
I agree about the Bigfoot factor, I call it the UFO, but yes, it's especially good to lead your argument logically to that conclusion. Ie. This group is doing this, and they're doing it so that will happen, because then the aliens can invade.
When I first ran into this stuff, I quit reading. John took the time to explain it to me, which was nice. Since I think there's a mix. True, if John, or I, post something online that's straight, it's gone.
I posted a neocon plan to take out Iran's industrial base with nuclear weapons, down to the plane and missiles we'd use, target lists, casualty estimates, and the post-apoc invasian plan. None of this was classified information, but I got a couple of interesting letters from people in govt. actually curious that this might be the actual administration plan, they seemed quite serious, but then *poof* the site was gone, along with 21 other sites I was running, all of my files were deleted, and my server account was closed, no reason given. I argued, but got no information other than "We're sorry, your account has been closed. Those files are no longer accessible." I have backups, but still...
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"The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom."
Hello,
Once the state accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them- guaranteed health, jobs, wages. State sponsored safety, predictability, and control... it's true that you are less likely to give up your freedom.
This is because you have probably already done so, in exchange for these self-same 'gifts.'
It may be a worthy exchange for some, and it is absolutely tempting. But it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms. Most people surrender their freedoms willingly, even eagerly, in exchange for a bit more security and comfort in their lives.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom."
Hello,
Once the state accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them- guaranteed health, jobs, wages. State sponsored safety, predictability, and control... it's true that you are less likely to give up your freedom.
This is because you have probably already done so, in exchange for these self-same 'gifts.'
It may be a worthy exchange for some, and it is absolutely tempting. But it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms. Most people surrender their freedoms willingly, even eagerly, in exchange for a bit more security and comfort in their lives.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Y'know, T, once the company accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them - a paycheck, health insurance, vacations - they've stolen your "freedom", too. So it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms, or even GOVERNMENT uniforms; sometimes it just takes people in Walmart uniforms, or Coca-Cola uniforms...
Mike
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Initiation: a ceremony, ritual, test, or period of instruction with which a new member is admitted to an organization or office or to knowledge.
I'll try to keep my head and be smart, despite my laughable lack of experience or contacts. Watching the water, looking for small fish for now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom."
Hello,
Once the state accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them- guaranteed health, jobs, wages. State sponsored safety, predictability, and control... it's true that you are less likely to give up your freedom.
This is because you have probably already done so, in exchange for these self-same 'gifts.'
It may be a worthy exchange for some, and it is absolutely tempting. But it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms. Most people surrender their freedoms willingly, even eagerly, in exchange for a bit more security and comfort in their lives.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Y'know, T, once the company accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them - a paycheck, health insurance, vacations - they've stolen your "freedom", too. So it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms, or even GOVERNMENT uniforms; sometimes it just takes people in Walmart uniforms, or Coca-Cola uniforms...
Mike
My wife penciled me in for a party I did not want to go to but obliged because, well, yanno. So, to add to the list...
"So it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms, or even GOVERNMENT uniforms, or even Walmart uniforms; sometimes it just takes your SPOUSE or one of their needy relatives..."
It does beg the question: who is truly free?
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
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Quote:
It does beg the question: who is truly free?
Jack Sparrow.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
It does beg the question: who is truly free?
Jack Sparrow.
I've seen the movies on sale, but not free.
Mike
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I don't think anyone is arguing that favours and requests from friends and loved ones "don't make you free."
That IS something you can choose, or not choose, depending on how much you like the person. If you like the person, perhaps you may feel obligated on a social level to be nice to them, but I don't think that's the same as the infringements of the government.
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Quote:Which is another way of saying "nobody". Because if you have to pick a fictional character....
Jack Sparrow
IMHO there is no such thing as "truly" free. We're always constrained. If not by the government then by hunger, thirst, fatigue, danger, cold, disease, and human empathy. Your only option is to choose your constraints.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The way you prevent a fascist state is by giving people breathing room... guaranteed healthcare, for example. More jobs. Wages somewhere above starvation-level. Once fear and uncertainty about survival moderates (and yes, I mean survival) people are much less interested in fascism. Much less likely to demonize others, or to give up their freedom."
Hello,
Once the state accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them- guaranteed health, jobs, wages. State sponsored safety, predictability, and control... it's true that you are less likely to give up your freedom.
This is because you have probably already done so, in exchange for these self-same 'gifts.'
It may be a worthy exchange for some, and it is absolutely tempting. But it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms. Most people surrender their freedoms willingly, even eagerly, in exchange for a bit more security and comfort in their lives.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
At last! Somebody gets it!
You think following the rules will buy you a nice life, even if it makes you a slave....
Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!
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Belief in Jack Sparrow is a personal matter :)
We're not constrained by nature, I don't buy it, we're constrained by bogus govt., which is a self appointed dictator, whatever it pretends to be or dresses up as.
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Quote:
SK:
I've seen the movies on sale, but not free.
ARR!
That's because you have to *pirate* it
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Quote:CONSTRAIN: to force by imposed stricture, restriction, or limitation;
We're not constrained by nature
to compel or force, to limit, restrict, or inhibit
How does nature NOT constrain us?? Are our choices and options not limited by our need to breathe, drink, eat, and stay warm?
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Quote:That's a heck of a philosophy ya got there, Signy. It completely renders the term "freedom" meaningless. So everyone who talks about "freedom" is deluded in your book? What the hell?
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Which is another way of saying "nobody". Because if you have to pick a fictional character....
Jack Sparrow
IMHO there is no such thing as "truly" free. We're always constrained. If not by the government then by hunger, thirst, fatigue, danger, cold, disease, and human empathy. Your only option is to choose your constraints.
Your problem with Anarchy finally makes perfect sense, though. You don't believe in freedom, you see aspects of your natural environment, even your own bodily functions as "constraints" on your freedom. Again: what the hell?
The only being that could be free in the way you mean free, would be a god, free of all external forces or pre-existing conditions. Freedom for you is omnipotence. Who the hell would feel constrained by "empathy?" "Dang it, empathy won't let me pull the wings these flies our gouge these puppies' eyes out! Stupid empathy!" I promise you, no one here is using the word "freedom" the way you use it, Ms. Spinoza.
So, when you hear people talking about living without coersion or heirarchies, you must throw up your hands as if we're talking pure jibberish.
Is anyone else as blown away by Signy's remarks here as I am?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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"Your only option is to choose your constraints."
Hello,
You mostly named the constraints people DON'T choose. I can't choose to not be thirsty, or hungry, or tired, or whatever. Not unless I blow my brains out.
But I can choose government. That's what we're talking about. Choosing government and choosing what you're willing to give them, or let them take.
Choosing what your line is, and where you draw it.
Or whether you even draw it at all.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Signy, dear, antidepressants. 100mg 5htp, 2/day, available at your local health food store.
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Byte:
Start local, would be my suggestion, these guys, leastways around here, don't even bother to cover their tracks cause anyone who might replace em is just as obviously corrupt so folks are unwilling to press the matter...
But everyone loves a good scandal, and getting the dirt means the ability to put the arm on them.
My "hole card" against the City Council was such a simple thing when it came right down to it - besides all the rest of the crap they pulled, they were keeping two sets of books, and I not only knew about them, I knew where they KEPT them.
Day after they tallied the results and shoved me into that office I confronted them about it, told em I wanted to see the books...
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=35571
At THAT point it was Game, Set, Match, all over but the crying.
Basic principle of the setup, Plan A, Plan B, and the GOTH* plan, with if-this-then-that variations, cause having the framework mentally handy helps by giving you a solid foundation for on the fly decisions.
GOTH* = GO To Hell plan, the last resort, everything has gone to hell and it's time to cut the losses plan - which unfortunately DID get put into action cause the local PD went full on out BERSERK, and I couldn't detail WHY at the time since cases were in progress.
You know what set em off like that ?
They were swiping dope from the evidence room, and this opened *them* up for the most heinous of abuses our legal system has to offer...
Asset Forfeiture.
Homes, cars, property - the works, carried out by folk who were bluntly informed that when the witch hunt comes, it's far better to be carrying the torches than tied to the stake.
You BET they were pissed, lethally so, which is why the endgame play was so downright insane when I made it an act of mockery like I did.
All of it set forth by a combination of them not covering their tracks about those books, and not even thinking to look or sweep for listening devices, which would not have helped them anyway because most commercial sweepers don't cover low power AM - which was entirely sufficient for the range cause I lived across the friggin street.
It's no longer useful cause eventually word got around, but one of my old signature tricks was low powered AM listening devices placed behind electrical outlets using the buildings own ground wire as a freakin antenna.
Starting with your local power brokers is the best move, cause they're smug, arrogant, and generally subcompetent as usually no one has been willing to really lay challenge to em in decades.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Is anyone else as blown away by Signy's remarks here as I am?
I think she is just setting one boundary for discussion. I found Anthony's comment about selling one's freedom for security and comfort more unusual. I'm trying to understand how to value freedom in the context of no security and no comfort. I would of course be a very poor politcal prisoner.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
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...You're comparing no government to living in a prison?
*mouth open, mouth close, brain broken, I'm gonna go eat some chocolate*
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Mmm, semi-sweet.
Okay, so... what?
I point out there would be a very real difficulty in taking political prisoners, if there's no authority party to declare them as such.
But you mention security and comfort.
When we talk about security and comfort being taken away for freedom, we're talking about when the government takes over an aspect that previously we took care of for ourselves in order to "take care of us."
I personally see this as not really taking care of us, but rather making us dependent and unable to operate outside the world they restrict us to.
I am not sure if this is what Anthony means, but I personally do not advocate people having no security or comfort. Rather it would be what they provide for themselves, on top of the support and acceptance of their loved ones and the community they are part of.
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Hmm. There are SO many useless people running my city right now, and SO many are corrupt and incompetent. I know exactly what you mean.
Remember the Salt Lake City Olympics, when the scandal came out that we had bribed the Olympic commission? Turns out everyone else does it too, but Salt Lake City can't even make a BRIBE properly. XD
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Is anyone else as blown away by Signy's remarks here as I am?
I think she is just setting one boundary for discussion. I found Anthony's comment about selling one's freedom for security and comfort more unusual. I'm trying to understand how to value freedom in the context of no security and no comfort. I would of course be a very poor politcal prisoner.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
I was still hoping to hear how it was markedly different than selling one's freedom for a freaking JOB. They say if the government gives you health and security they can take it away just as easily, and I say you're more likely to lose your job than your government.
Just sayin'.
Mike
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PB,
Maybe she was, but I was serious about the depression. People only make certain comments when they're depressed. As folk was trying to have a conv. about alt. to govt., it seemed out of place to just be voicing doom. It's okay to take a chill pill
Frem,
2 sets of books, nice. Like dielbold machines keep three sets of vote tallies, which is not a conspiracy theory. There's a great breakdown of how they work written by some people in new zealand who got one and took it apart
Mike,
Job isn't really security either, you need streams of income, and of course, to eliminate expenses. Best of all to have minions. Minions are very useful.
"Everyone needs minions" -Lois McMaster Bujold
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Quote:
I was still hoping to hear how it was markedly different than selling one's freedom for a freaking JOB. They say if the government gives you health and security they can take it away just as easily, and I say you're more likely to lose your job than your government.
Just sayin'.
I *KNEW* you didn't like that.
Oh well, I can't change how I feel about it. I think we're as much indentured to the companies that employ us as the government, and they both do their best to keep us that way.
If you lose your job, and a job provides comfort and security like food and shelter until you become dependent on your job for it... Well, what's that say about jobs? How's it different from being a citizen under an oppressive government?
Now, a voluntary effort, because your neighbor is working, and because everyone's working, and working together, that is appealing to me.
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"Well, what's that say about jobs?"
It's called being a 'wage slave'.
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"Y'know, T, once the company accustoms you to receiving these gifts from them - a paycheck, health insurance, vacations - they've stolen your "freedom", too. So it doesn't take people in Nazi uniforms to steal your freedoms, or even GOVERNMENT uniforms; sometimes it just takes people in Walmart uniforms, or Coca-Cola uniforms...
Mike"
Hello Mike,
It's wonderful, isn't it? To decide for yourself what you want? Get in as deep or as shallow as you want? To be able to back out at any time you're ready to make a change? To switch gears as soon as you're ready, and above all...
To have inflicted your will, your personal formula of comfort and freedom, on not one other smucking person?
That's the difference between a job and a government. At least until the corporations go Cyberpunk on us. Not far off, maybe.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Heck, I see them cyberpunking us now. But then, maybe that's why I consider myself Anarchist, and not Libertarian. :)
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"I say you're more likely to lose your job than your government."
Hello Mike,
Very much the point, and thanks for bringing it up.
I can't lose my government. Not easily. But I can lose my job. I can decide on a standard of living and eat the shit I'm willing to eat to support it.
And then I can decide differently.
And I decide these things for myself.
Not so with government.
You decide for other people, and you decide for the long haul. Because once you give them something, Mike, they never give it back easy. You can't come into government tomorrow and say you quit Social Security. You can't say 'government program X and law Y aren't working for me anymore. I choose to discontinue."
But you can quit your job, if you have the cojones, and no one is gonna arrest you. If you're qualified, and there's a position open, you could get a new job tomorrow. It's your choice what you're willing to live with, what chances you take.
Try that with a government. Declare the United States a hippy commune, smoke a joint, screw a whore, walk on your front lawn naked, and learn the hard lesson that once the government starts taking care of you, it's hard to get them to stop.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Kathy,
I thought you had one of 'em superjobs where they pay you 80k but expect 80 hrs/wk from you...
Oh, yeah, higher wage, still slave, see your point. If you want to deconstruct gardasil some time I'd be interested in your thoughts, that was the debate you missed.
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Quote:
You decide for other people, and you decide for the long haul. Because once you give them something, Mike, they never give it back easy. You can't come into government tomorrow and say you quit Social Security. You can't say 'government program X and law Y aren't working for me anymore. I choose to discontinue."
But you can quit your job, if you have the cojones, and no one is gonna arrest you. If you're qualified, and there's a position open, you could get a new job tomorrow. It's your choice what you're willing to live with, what chances you take.
Try that with a government. Declare the United States a hippy commune, smoke a joint, screw a whore, walk on your front lawn naked, and learn the hard lesson that once the government starts taking care of you, it's hard to get them to stop.
Actually, Anthony, you CAN do all that. You CAN "quit your government". You CAN "quit social security". You can have all the freedom you can stand, and then some. You can be free to set your course and make what you can of yourself, completely on your own. All you have to do is head somewhere like Sierra Leone or Guyana.
You're saying that if I don't like my job, I can go to another job. Well, if you don't like your government, you actually CAN leave and go to another government. Some have legalized pot and prostitution, even, if that's what you're into.
Seems to me none of us is really convinced that we're in any way TRULY "free" - we're pretty much admitting that we're whores; now we're just negotiating the price. But either way, we're going to get screwed.
Mike
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I think maybe Anthony has been to a place with our gov that most of us never have been, or maybe many of us ever could go... maybe...
I quite happily and willingly live within this government's laws and constraints because I - gulp - still believe it is my gov to change if I want to.
I say this in full knowledge and recognition that it is flawed, that it practically robs me every paycheck, that some of its international decisions go against my core beliefs. I say this knowing that I actually NEED a government to survive, that in fact the REAL ISSUE is not the poorness of my government or it's constraining practices, but rather the WEAKNESS and FRAILTY of it's CITIZENS.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
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Slightly off topic:
Hi DreamTrove
Given the growing ineffectiveness of antibiotics, and also the number of diseases for which there is no and has never been treatment (HPV is one of them) I am in GENERAL in favor of vaccination as both a personal and group means of preventing preventable diseases. (For disease read suffering and/ or statistical likelihood of death.) I predict we are only beginning to see the wave of horrible diseases in the face of which our normal treaments will be useless. Having lost the treatment option, prevention will be our only recourse.
Having said that - while I don't know much about Gardasil specifically, I am wary of the modern FDA. David Kessler was the last of the good guys, and he was fighting a losing battle as it was being dismantled underneath him. It used to be a fairly effective regulatory agency, standing between the hucksters and the public. It is now the puppet of the pharmaceutical industry.
I wouldn't trust anything that came out of the FDA over the last perhaps 10 years on that alone. Gardasil is one of them.
Which is a tragedy in the making. The FDA lost a lot of ground when it needed to be progressing. It could have been ahead of the curve enhancing its reputation and honing its collective skills and scientific data set. Now it is behind and I see little likelihood it will catch up.
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Nicely said, Pizmo, and pretty much mirrors what I believe. There are worse things than what we've got, and I'd rather not experience them.
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Together we are more than the sum of our parts
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Mike,
you can quit a capitalist institution in either direction without changing anything else about your life. No need to move, just "unsubscribe."
Govt. should be the same way. But globalists would like to block the "relocate" as well
Kathy,
I think the science of gardasil is sound research, but the application is poor. It's a synthetic copy of the principle protein of HPV, non blood virus, and then it is injected into the bloodstream. This can create radical immune responses against particles that could lodge in the lungs, heart, anywhere, and the immune system would attack it as if it were the cancer causing virus it resembles.
I agree, the FDA is a totally captured agency that bows to the likes of Merck, and Merck in particular, making it a useless check on power.
Addition, yes, there are many diseases we don't yet know. I suspect a lot of the problems we think of as "aging" including I would hazard a guess "all of cancer" is actually a number of diseases just now being identified. Vaccines are good, but cures would be better. There's occasional talk about "universal defense" because viral structure is alien to human, that it could be targeted without any risk to our own tissues.
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The good news, Kwicko, or perhaps the bad news, Pizmobeach, is that no government lasts forever. And I think the decay in ours has been showing for a long time.
They way I see it, is that our government has been willing to allow giant corporate conglomerates to grow, that have such a stake in the market (and control over the government) that if they fail, they take our economy with it.
Eventually, all the outright theft from the public to contribute to cronyism will misstep again, and they will cause their own ruin.
Oh, sure, they can do things like declare martial law and try to increase the control they have over the general public to stay alive for a bit longer, but that'll fail too, eventually, because at that point, people will want to stop accepting the government's rule because it will no longer be in their best interest even surficially (if they ever really intended to act in our best interests), but about control.
A contingency plan for when that happens is all I'm advocating.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I think maybe Anthony has been to a place with our gov that most of us never have been, or maybe many of us ever could go... maybe...
I quite happily and willingly live within this government's laws and constraints because I - gulp - still believe it is my gov to change if I want to.
I say this in full knowledge and recognition that it is flawed, that it practically robs me every paycheck, that some of its international decisions go against my core beliefs. I say this knowing that I actually NEED a government to survive, that in fact the REAL ISSUE is not the poorness of my government or it's constraining practices, but rather the WEAKNESS and FRAILTY of it's CITIZENS.
Were the citizens "weak, frail," and dependent on the government before the great depression?
It has not always been this way, and I don't think this way is for the best. There is something satisfying in doing something for yourself. I grant you, there may be times when you CAN'T do something for yourself, but then, isn't that where human relationship should come in?
Out of curiosity, have you ever voted for someone who was not elected, or even, in the case of primaries, not nominated? If so, then how is your voice being represented in the decision making process in our country? Is it enough to have faith in a particular party if you do not have local representation from that party? Why would a national party work on any of your local issues, if they have no members from there with any constituents?
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Quote:
That's a heck of a philosophy ya got there, Signy. It completely renders the term "freedom" meaningless. So everyone who talks about "freedom" is deluded in your book? What the hell? Your problem with Anarchy finally makes perfect sense, though. You don't believe in freedom, you see aspects of your natural environment, even your own bodily functions as "constraints" on your freedom. Again: what the hell? The only being that could be free in the way you mean free, would be a god, free of all external forces or pre-existing conditions. Freedom for you is omnipotence. Who the hell would feel constrained by "empathy?" "Dang it, empathy won't let me pull the wings these flies our gouge these puppies' eyes out! Stupid empathy!" I promise you, no one here is using the word "freedom" the way you use it, Ms. Spinoza. So, when you hear people talking about living without coersion or heirarchies, you must throw up your hands as if we're talking pure jibberish.
Quote:
"Your only option is to choose your constraints." Hello, You mostly named the constraints people DON'T choose. I can't choose to not be thirsty, or hungry, or tired, or whatever. Not unless I blow my brains out. But I can choose government. That's what we're talking about. Choosing government and choosing what you're willing to give them, or let them take. Choosing what your line is, and where you draw it.Or whether you even draw it at all.
Quote:BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Signy, dear, antidepressants. 100mg 5htp, 2/day, available at your local health food store.
"Ms. Spinoza"
Thank you!
I've been called worse. Later.
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For the most part, I think everyone here believes in the power of the individual.
The power of one person to run their own life.
To protect, feed, and care for themselves and others.
Am I wrong?
Most of us just disagree on whether or not we should be forced to care for strangers.
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Quote:Wulf, I believe that you are utterly wrong, not only about the ability of individuals to care for themselves, but also about what most people here think about that.
For the most part, I think everyone here believes in the power of the individual. The power of one person to run their own life. To protect, feed, and care for themselves and others. Am I wrong?
Elderly can't care for themselves. Neither can the sick or disabled. And of course babies can't either. Dump them from consideration and you've dumped the entire human race.
You assume that the technological society we live all came from "individual effort"? Not true. "Individuals" can't develop technology. People have to have extra time to learn and to experiment. Ideas need to be exchanged. Of course, that means agriculture, and language. Written language is particularly helpful. Which means, of course, that in order to progress... to build on the discoveries of the past and to use the current technologies we need to have a broadly educated population.
And then there is trade... money... all of the things we do collectively that we couldn't possibly do individually. Even hunting requires coordination. By your standard, we would each be digging for roots by ourselves. Individually.
Frem recognizes the need for coordination. So does HK, and a whole host of other people here. The question revolves around not whether we can survive as INDIVIDUALS (we can't) but HOW coordination is engendered: by cooperation, by force, or a combinaiton.
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"... our government has been willing to allow giant corporate conglomerates to grow ..."
It was one of the oft-repeated errors (lies ?) during the u-soft trial that the government was going after u-soft b/c it was a monopoly, or at least too big.
In fact, there is no law against large corporations per se, or a few large corporations - or even one corporation - having a monopoly and controlling the vast majority of the market.
What there IS a law against is said controller(s) engaging in anti-competative practices (of which u-soft was found guilty).
If you want corporations kept small, then the laws will have to be changed. (That, I may add, is going against the grain as small differences in advantage tend to accumulate into large differences until only one, or a select few at most, remain.)
BTW - when it came to enforcing the laws that WERE on the books, the Reagan administration kept both the Justice Department and the Federal Trade Commission inactive - career people spent years with literally nothing to do. It was at this time when u-soft was doing its most egregious dirty deeds. So much for deregulation, eh ?
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ANTHONY
Quote:
Try that with a corporation. Declare Microsoft a free software community, distribute their software, break their intellectual property protection, and learn the hard lesson that once corporations starts taking care of you, it's hard to get them to stop.
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In truth, I think that using the word "allow" was a kindness, on my part. "Helped while laughing their heads off about it" is perhaps more likely.
Regulations were a nod at the citizens becoming outraged at the abuses of transgressions over consumers in the name of not just profits, but OBSCENE profits, but they're among a number of things that our government does that I consider lip service. And they don't really seem to do it WELL.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For the most part, I think everyone here believes in the power of the individual.
The power of one person to run their own life.
To protect, feed, and care for themselves and others.
Am I wrong?
Most of us just disagree on whether or not we should be forced to care for strangers.
...Or whether or not they should be "forced" to care for US.
Right now, today, you have military men and women fighting, laying down THEIR LIVES, purportedly so that you don't have to. And they're being paid a pittance for doing so. And they have no real say in whether they do it or not. Once you join, you're stuck there. You can't get out if you want to, or when you THINK you're supposed to be done. Well, unless you announce that you're gay - then you're gone in sixty seconds!
Wulfie, I know you have this image of yourself as being a self-made man, of springing from the earth fully formed and ready for battle, but it's just not so. Everybody that ever came before you, you owe for your ability to even be born into this country. Everybody who comes after you, you owe a debt to leave them a better place in which to live. I know you don't think that; I know you're only in favor of that which you can see and feel and touch, and think that's the only contributions that matter, but you're dead wrong. If you went to school, you owe us all that money that paid for your education. If you ever called the police, the fire department, or any other civil servant, you owe us the money for their training and equipment. If you've ever driven on a public road, you owe us for that.
You want to make it sound like every man is his own self-contained world, but it just ain't so. You don't want to care for others? Fine. I don't want to care for you or any cracker spawn you might be able to propagate. Either promise us all that you won't have children, or make goddamn sure that you have enough money put aside so that you NEVER need any public assistance of any kind to help take care of them - because that would be forcing strangers to take care of you. Or, in your words, that would be forcing ME to take care of STRANGERS, namely YOU.
And while you're putting away your millions to take care of your kids, make sure NOT to take any kind of deductions off your taxes, because that is money that the government is taking from me and giving to you for the dubious honor of littering the planet with your worthless seed, and I don't believe in giving charity to those who are too stupid to pull out or wear a condom.
Deal?
Mike
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And if you think I'm being unduly harsh, Wulfie, it's only to try to FORCE your damned eyes and your mind to open just a little tiny bit.
Mike
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Kwicko, I think you said better than I.
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No.
I do not see myself as having been spawned from the earth, complete and whole.
Nor do I agree that everyone exists in their own self-made world.
However, do I believe that a person, actual and whole, on their own, can do well without the influence of others? Yes.
Roads? You mean the over-priced lanes that are now being given over to private companies? For tolls?
Schools? LOL Lets not even go there.
Demon seed? You mean the illegitimate spawn that propagate themselves and continue to ruin EVERY major urban area? The gangs, the drug runners, the criminals?
But, NOW, Im expected to not only feed and house and clothe these monsters, these filth... but even to pay for their healthcare? Are you serious?
While the new filth may be the slaves of the rich, arrogant, elitist pigs... its up to us to pay for their well being?
Fuck that.
You know what? How about you make those folks who bring in over 100 grand pay for the slime? Instead of people who are barely getting by?
Or... how about everyone who is FOR "universal healthcare" be the ones to pay for it? We could have a vote... those who say they want to pay for it CAN, and those who don't... they DO NOT?
Otherwise, let the rich pay for their indentured servants, and leave the free citizens alone?
Isn't that fair?
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"In truth, I think that using the word "allow" was a kindness, on my part. "
Again, I'd like to remind you there is no regulation against monopolies. So, if you are concerned about corporate size as an issue, and you are concerned about government non-regulation of corporate szie, it's a regulation that had yet to be written.
But more broadly, it's not ALL government ALL of the time that does such things. Reagan did it to the max. Bush I did it some. Clinton didn't interfere with enforcement of laws, but he was non-supportive either. The departments were on their own. Bush II did it a LOT.
But the u-soft trial DID go forward. And u-soft WAS found guilty. As was Ken Lay. Bernie Madoff DID go to jail.
You may see only small differences in politicians. But I think the record shows that that's why WHO gets into office is important.
BTW - as bad as I think Obama is - and I think he's bad - I still think he's better than McCain would have been. McCain would have been owned by Cheney and con-conspirators. Obama is far more conservative than most people realized. But he's push-able.
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Quote:NO.
on their own, can do well without the influence of others? Yes.
Quote:That's the plan, dumbo. Only it's $250 grand, not $100.
How about you make those folks who bring in over 100 grand pay for the slime? Instead of people who are barely getting by?
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Quote:Just like to add my voice to the chorus of get your head out of your ass, Wulf.
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For the most part, I think everyone here believes in the power of the individual.
The power of one person to run their own life.
To protect, feed, and care for themselves and others.
Am I wrong?
Most of us just disagree on whether or not we should be forced to care for strangers.
You wouldn't survive for a week without other humans. Interdependence is the human condition. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that--in fact, it is what's gonna save us from annihilating ourselves in the final analysis.
You know, there's kind of an elephant in the room that almost never gets talked about here in the RWED. That elephant would be gender--specifically, the default gender of those who voice certain aggressively antisocial opinions. No sane woman could ever agree with your rants, Wulf. And you may find that, eventually, you'll want such women in your life.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Ok... maybe you CAN'T do well without human interaction. I admit that.
But forcing people to do something? When has that EVER worked?
Like I said, I tell you what.... you have a vote. All of the people who are in favor of paying for healthcare for those who can't afford it, go ahead and put your names down...
The 3 of you can then pay for the booboos, sniffles, and std treatments of the dregs, and leave the rest of us alone.
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Quote:BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!
But forcing people to do something? When has that EVER worked?
This gets back to the "truly free" concept.
We're "forced" by our need to eat and drink; to be warm and safe; to be cared for when sick, young or old... to make all kinds of compromises... with each other, with corporations, with government.
And even if you're limiting the idea of "force" to someone holding a gun over someone else... as you seem to think gubmint does ... well, then, truly it works quite often! Because governments have been in existance for a long, looooong time.
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Kind of scares you, Sig, doesn't it?
Saying, "If you want to pay for the healthcare of those who can't afford it, raise your hand".
And then FORCING those who said they would, to do it?
"And even if you're limiting the idea of "force" to someone holding a gun over someone else... as you seem to think gubmint does ... well, then, truly it works quite often! Because governments have been in existance for a long, looooong time."
Yeah, and thats why the American government was SUPPOSED to be different. Not this horrible abortion that the libs and conservatives have turned it into.
ETA: Which is why we are head to a revolution, btw. (For those of you who havn't been paying attention)
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Eh ... their idea of government was not what you think it was.
They had a law - in the constitution no less - against treason. You might have run afoul of that. They felt the government should 'promote the general welfare'. Everbody's welfare, not the few who voted for it. And so on.
They were MUCH more social and sane than you.
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Quote:FWIW I AM willing to pay for healthcare for those who can't afford it. And that means yours too, if you can't. So go suck on a turd.
Kind of scares you, Sig, doesn't it?Saying, "If you want to pay for the healthcare of those who can't afford it, raise your hand".
Quote:Oh, grow up, you simpleton! They DID have laws back then! They even had taxes!
Yeah, and thats why the American government was SUPPOSED to be different. Not this horrible abortion that the libs and conservatives have turned it into. ETA: Which is why we are head to a revolution, btw. (For those of you who havn't been paying attention)
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"FWIW I AM willing to pay for healthcare for those who can't afford it. And that means yours too, if you can't. So go suck on a turd."
Cute, but if I need healthcare, and can't afford it... I have FRIENDS and FAMILY....
So really, you and the 2 others... go ahead. Pay for the uninsured. Please, by all means. Just leave the rest of us alone.
While you are at it, btw,... when the next round of whining for reparations comes up... go ahead and take care of that too.
ETA: Oh, yeah, almost forgot... same thing with paying for illegal immigrants educations... oh and their licenses....
I'm sure the 3 of you will be great at paying for all of that. Thanks so much! 
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Quote:YOU DO???
Cute, but if I need healthcare, and can't afford it... I have FRIENDS and FAMILY....
AFAIK your "family" was useless, and quite frankly I can't imagine you having any friends.... at least, not any rich enough to handle a $250,000 surgery... let alone a simple trip to the ER...
But, hey... I can slap on a poultice with the best of 'em. So if your friends can do the same, I guess you're all set! NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wulfie
You KNOW you're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper - right ?
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"YOU DO??? AFAIK your "family" was useless, and quite frankly I can't imagine you having any friends.... at least, not any rich enough to handle a $250,000 surgery... let alone a simple trip to the ER... "
And here come the personal attacks... (or at least as personal as they can be over the internet)
Sorry Sig, I gave you more credit than to try this when you are losing an argument... I guess I was wrong.
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Frankly Wulf, when you said "I have FRIENDS and FAMILY..." (implying that I don't 
) all I could think of was "I have a fwiend fwom Wome named 'Biggus Dickus.'" (For you Monty Python fans out there...!)
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You CLAIM your friends and family will be able to take care of you no matter what - you don't need no stinkin' health care !
Could they really afford a $250,000 surgery ? What about if you become disabled at an early age ? What about when you WILL become disabled when you are older ? Questions and comments about your (supposed) friends and family and their ability to do what you CLAIM they will do are relevant - because YOU brought them into this. If you didn't want that to be part of the discussion, you should have left it out. Doooood.
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And then, of course there's the consideration that Wulf may not have any such... in which case, he's a bliar.
Wulf, don't mean to pile on like this...
Well, OK, I do.
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Hey, its cool. Im sure I've given the 2 of you sisters MORE than enough reason to "pile on me" as you so eloquently put it...
But, for as pretty as I am, I'm just not into bull dykes... 
Now, can we get back to where you were saying that I, or anyone else MUST pay for them that won't help themselves?
Or were you and Rue going to do it?
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Quote:First of all, there is a difference between "won't" and "can't", which I invite you to explore. Unless there is a job with survival wages for everyone willing to work, there will always be people who "can't". (And that's not counting the sick, eldery, the very young and their care-givers, and the pregnant.. which make up roughly 50% of the population of the USA)
Now, can we get back to where you were saying that I, or anyone else MUST pay for them that won't help themselves?
Despite what Frem and HK aspire to, ALL societies have some element of coercion. That's one of them.
There are sound reasons (aside from being nice)for making people pay for others. Those who derive the most from society should pay the most for its maintenance. There would not BE any wealth if "someone" hadn't laid the groundwork for sewage, roads, education, safety etc. That points to the fact that a society which is secure, healthy, stable, and educated is a productive society. All you have to do is look at Europe versus Somalia to know this is true.
But there is a more fundamental question than that.
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Sig, these sound like the same failed arguments that the 70's hippies used when they started (and ultimatly ABANDONED) their communes...
"Those who derive the most from society should pay the most for its maintenance."
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No, the communes were based on "cooperation". Taxes? Not so much.
You young pup, you!
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Cooperation? Don't you mean.... drum roll please..... SOCIALISM?
The basic premise that you have to care for your neighbor works ONLY if you actually CARE for your neighbor.
Its the same principle of arranged marriages... you cannot love someone you are FORCED to love.
In the same vein, you cannot build a good civilization on the basis of FORCE. Or feelings of being "owed" something.
Sig, being forced to take care of strangers, or those who cannot or will not take care of themselves, WILL lead to revolt.
Especially in this country, where individualism is a keystone of our combined national self.
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Not necessarily. I'd like to build a system where people like you, who would rather go on their own, would be free to do so. If you'd rather be left alone, then by all means.
But is what I envision socialism? Perhaps. Forced? I don't think so, because what I'd like to do is rebuild a sense of family, friendship, and community, so that people who choose to settle near each other do actually care about each other. In doing so, I think they would want to help each other... Although, I would also hope that they wouldn't be obligated to.
It's not as though I agree to do everything my friends and family ask of me. But I because I do care about them, I do enough that we get along, and do cooperate.
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Quote:No, I think this would have been closer to anarchism or communalism.
Cooperation? Don't you mean.... drum roll please..... SOCIALISM?
Quote:But you can't "CARE" for your neighbor if it's beyond your capacity. What if they need brain surgery? Gonna do that on your kitchen table? Pay out of pocket? It can't be personal, limited to "friends and family". Just like building roads can't be limited to "friends and family".
The basic premise that you have to care for your neighbor works ONLY if you actually CARE for your neighbor.
Quote:But you can partner with someone if they're hardworking and honest.
Its the same principle of arranged marriages... you cannot love someone you are FORCED to love.
Quote:Most people have enough empathy to want to help less fortunate. I know from your history that may have been more-or-less beaten out of you, but it doesn't take strong personal feelings to create a more caring society.
In the same vein, you cannot build a good civilization on the basis of FORCE. Or feelings of being "owed" something.
Quote:That's just YOU talking. I know that in your case, "strangers" is a code word for violent black gang members and their equally ignorant and resentful moms, but... ya gotta look past that, man. There are a lot of honest, hardworking people who are truly being beaten down by the system.
Sig, being forced to take care of strangers, or those who cannot or will not take care of themselves, WILL lead to revolt.
Quote:Not really. The peeps in this country are far more indoctrinated and uniform that in... say.. Europe. We're more religious, more inclined to believe demagogues, more brand/ corporate-loyal, less able to consider and discuss alternate opinions... in other words, we've given our brains, wallets, and loyalties over to churches, corporations, and mouthpieces at alarminlgy higher rates than in other developed countries.
Especially in this country, where individualism is a keystone of our combined national self.
My hubby works at a major So Cal university, they have many Chinese and Russian graduate students, who almost all say that the level of propaganization here is far worse than in their country.
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"and their equally ignorant and resentful moms..."
Huh?
But again, this isnt about me.
This is about the idea, and the ideal, of who and what we are as a country. Are we to be forced to pay for those who cannot or will not do for themselves?
Are we?
Hell, can we even afford it?
Do we really want to turn the middle class into the revenue generators for the scum, while the rich laugh? Use us as indentured servants?
I say hell no.
I say no more.
Enough is enough.
Now, that family you were deriving me about just finished cooking dinner... so Im off to eat the food I worked to pay for, in the house I worked to pay for, at the table I saved for...
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Quote:Wulf, it's ALL about you.
But again, this isnt about me.
Quote:You're simply trying to convince me of YOUR ideals. YOUR ideas.
This is about the idea, and the ideal, of who and what we are as a country.
Quote:What mean this "we", kimo sabe? YOU will not be forced to pay for anything unless you're a helluva lot richer than I think you are. (Which I doubt)
Are we to be forced to pay for those who cannot or will not do for themselves?
Quote:Can we afford to be in Iraq? Can we afford 800 military installations around the world? Maybe we should re-set our priorities, eh? Less about invading other countries, bombing them back to the stone age and killing people, and more about providing actual ... yanno... services.
Hell, can we even afford it?
Quote:Of course not. You heard this from... who??? Why do you think that's the plan?
Do we really want to turn the middle class into the revenue generators for the scum, while the rich laugh?
Quote:What world are you living in?
Use us as indentured servants?
Quote:Bully for you!
I say hell no.
Quote:Ah, so you have a WIFE and she's gonna pay for your healthcare. Isn't that sweet? (Unrealistic, but sweet...
Now, that family you were deriving (sic) me about just finished cooking dinner... so Im off to eat the food I worked to pay for, in the house I worked to pay for, at the table I saved for...
!) BTW- does she know that she's your healthcare plan? Wulf, I'm trying to get you off your sopabox and plant your feet back on the ground. You get carried away sometimes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Are we to be forced to pay for those who cannot or will not do for themselves?
I may have missed someone explaining this already... but *IF* you pay any taxes then you pay for them already. Medicare and Medicaid get syphoned right out of your paycheck - it goes for those useless old people who can no longer do for themselves. Maybe you should call them and let them know that by Gawd, you've had enough, no more care for anyone over - what do you think? 70? 75? Flush them after they're 80 for sure, right? It's a tough call, but you have your principles right?
Good news - it gets taken even if you don't pay for your own health care!
"Even though you may not have health insurance, about $219.40 of every $1,000 of your taxes went to pay for health care last year. On an annual salary of $52,000, that works out to $11,408.80 a year. The biggest chunk of that ($124.20 per thousand) went to pay for Medicare, which provides health coverage for people over 65. The rest ($95.20) went for Medicaid, which covers low-income families and individual, and state administered health coverage for children.
It's all moot though because I doubt you pay any taxes.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Cute, but if I need healthcare, and can't afford it... I have FRIENDS and FAMILY....
I'm shocked that nobody jumped on your ass for this post. Hasn't your big platform been up until this point that you can stand on your own two feet and do absolutely anything without the help from others and that everyone else should have to do that too? Well then why would you go to your friends and family for healthcare Wulf? If you can't pay for it, isn't that your fault in your little world? Shouldn't your response be "Well, I don't have healthcare. Guess I better just hope this passes."
Practice what your preach son!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:FWIW I AM willing to pay for healthcare for those who can't afford it. And that means yours too, if you can't. So go suck on a turd.
Kind of scares you, Sig, doesn't it?Saying, "If you want to pay for the healthcare of those who can't afford it, raise your hand".Quote:Oh, grow up, you simpleton! They DID have laws back then! They even had taxes!
Yeah, and thats why the American government was SUPPOSED to be different. Not this horrible abortion that the libs and conservatives have turned it into. ETA: Which is why we are head to a revolution, btw. (For those of you who havn't been paying attention)
Wulfie, you poor misguided shit-head... Have you ever actually read a history book, gone to a class, LEARNED about ANYTHING at all having to do with your country's history? Well after the Revolutionary War, we had taxes, fines, fees - and debtors' prisons. We had laws whereby you could be tossed in debtor's prison for not paying your debts. Hell, we threw SOLDIERS in them for not paying the debts which they accrued WHILE FIGHTING THAT WAR - fighting, it should be noted, without any pay whatsoever.
And beloved "patriots" like Sam Adams advocated killing these people if they wouldn't pay for the war they'd helped win with their blood. There was even a documented case of a woman being thrown from her sickbed when she couldn't pay her bills, and her bed was sold out from under her. She was left to die on a bare floor.
That "revolution" you dream of? It wasn't anywhere near as glamorous as you think it was.
Mike
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Hey, um, I know we don't agree with Wulf on his outlook towards other human beings, or about revolution and the suffering and dying it would bring, but I'm not sure this is going to convince him otherwise.
I just see this backing the big angry Wulf into a corner, and, I admit I don't know him well, but when people get backed into a corner, they take away a negative perception of it. <_<
Maybe a time'll come when something changes in his life for the better, and he might be more open to hearing this stuff. That's what I hope for, anyway.
'Til then, I think we ought to try to not reinforce his beliefs through sheer negativity. Disagree, because there are things he says I disagree with, but don't push him further the other direction, you know? >_>
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So Byte- So what should we do? Agree him to death?
Wulf's problem far as I can gather, is that he grew up in the projects and was harassed and beaten by black thugs most of his young days. Him mom, near as I can tell, was a non-entity and his dad was out of the picture. But Wulf fought back, progressed, and learned several things from this early, scarring experience:
Violence pays, because most problems are about violence and therefore most problems are solved by violence.
Anyone can make it.
Blacks are violent, shiftless, lazy, resentful and feel entitled.
The problem is, he can't see beyond it. So everything is about whether a program would help "those people" or not. If it does, or might, no matter HOW good the programs, Wulf is against it!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The problem is, he can't see beyond it.
There is quite a bit of that going around, IMHO.
Signy, how are you any less authoritarian than you like to blame other's of being? You seem to have no problem with forcing other's to do something against their will as long as it is "right" in your books. You seem to have no problem with demonizing your opponent as long as they are in the "wrong". So come on Purplebelly, tell us all how your meddling will make this a better world. (Hey, I could have gone with jack-booted thug, I believe that is your favorite refrain)
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Part of Wulfies issue is reflexively posting knee-jerk responses he *knows* are idiotic and then feeling the need to defend them so he doesn't look like an idiot about it, cause of an also reflexive instinct not to show weakness.
That this winds up makin him look worse isn't quite lost on him when he chills out.
Likely his subconscious-triggered racism lead to bad reactions from any person of color to him and those bad reactions amplified his unfortunate opinion, a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy there stirred up quite deliberately the rightist end of the political spectrum as a useful prod.
Perhaps one would do better to point out to him that he's railing at the rats in the cages, instead of the folk building them, and what chance at a natural existence is there for those born into the "captivity" of deliberately fostered ignorance, malice, and economic suppression which has little incentive for improvement anyway, cause even IF you manage to survive, even IF you manage to escape without a criminal history, even IF you find the money and the time and get a degree...
That piece of paper won't make you a single shade whiter when the boss that's part of the cage builders shitcans your resume to keep you in your place.
To deny the obvious realities these people face is an act of cruel mockery, without doing some very dark deeds you ain't EVER gettin out of the trap, and those deeds and the doing of em, they HAUNT a person, prey on their mind and chase em screaming down the corridors of their own consciousness in the wee hours of the night...
And Wulf *knows* this, damn well he knows it, it's just a matter of getting him to understand that instead of gassing the cage contents, maybe breaking open the door so they don't have to climb out on top of their fellow victims is a good idea - cause have you really bettered yourself if you come out of it with mental aberration and a side order of racism, compounded by the haunting of your own actions in the escape ?
And just cause someone is a semi-literate thug doesn't mean they don't WANT to better themselves, but what good is a college degree with a felony conviction draggin it right back down like an anchor, from something they HAD to do in order to feed themselves or their family ?
Anyhows, as far as medical care...
Roads, communications lines, railways, power lines, all that infrastructure stuff I got NO problem payin tax dollars on if it is considered the dominion and property of the people as a whole, rather than payin for the comm lines and having some corporation co-opt them and bail on it's promise to share, operating them for profit as their exclusive playground, hell with that.
WE paid for it, it belongs to US, way I see it, and each state and locality can set things up the way they like, far as regulation goes, as it was intended.
And medical care, that's one of the infrastructure bits which I think is worth the money, buy it out, make it OURS instead of renting it at the purchase price plus, that's bullshit.
We gonna pay for it, then it should belong to US, all of us, something that is no more "socialist" than public school, which FOR THE BASICS, doesn't do that bad of a job, it's just been badly neglected and abused by folk with political reason to do so - and by taking back such things as the dominion and property of the people collectively, we can then apply ourselves to it to improve it if we wish, or not.
I mean, for the rapacious tax bite we pay, oughten we GET something for it, for once ?
-F
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Quote:In terms of...? The discussion here? Taxes? Health care?
Signy, how are you any less authoritarian than you like to blame other's of being? You seem to have no problem with forcing other's to do something against their will as long as it is "right" in your books.
Quote:Do you think I'm demonizing Wulf? I'm not. I think Wulf is wrong in his opinions, but I also think he's fully human.
You seem to have no problem with demonizing your opponent as long as they are in the "wrong".
You're just pushing back because you thought my argument was effective.
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Frem, I obviously don't have either your or Wulf's background. I'm not good at pushing buttons, I don't know where the levers are, I don't know of any other approach than straightforward logic and... alas... I think I will never learn.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You're just pushing back because you thought my argument was effective.
uh, no.
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Well BDN, if that's the best argument that you can come up with - I'm authoritarian and I'm somehow demonizing Wulf - then go point by point with me on that. And if you can't, then I'd say you got nuttin'.
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Yep. Ya got nuttin'.
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Signy,
Just my opinion, mind you.
Only Bush followers were authoritarians. I remember you throwing that term around quite a bit on a myriad number of subjects.
Is it somehow different now that the head honcho has changed?
How about the FLDA crisis? How about your views on smoking?
Seems to me that we all follow authority, just in different ways.
And by demonize, I meant attacking the Poster not the post. If your argument is so strong, why the pontificating on your perceptions of Wulf's background?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yep. Ya got nuttin'.
Patience is a virtue, might want to look to that.
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ANTHONY, I would like your specific response to this:
Quote:Thought it might have got lost in the shuffle. Thanks.
Try that with a corporation. Declare Microsoft a free software community, distribute their software, break their intellectual property protection, and learn the hard lesson that once corporations starts taking care of you, it's hard to get them to stop.
BDN-
Quote:AFA any change of attitude from Bush to Obama: Obama's followers are MUCH more critical of Obama than Bush's followers were of Bush. All you have to do is go here www.alternet.org to see that
Signy, Just my opinion, mind you. Only Bush followers were authoritarians. I remember you throwing that term around quite a bit on a myriad number of subjects. Is it somehow different now that the head honcho has changed? How about the FLDA crisis? How about your views on smoking? Seems to me that we all follow authority, just in different ways.
BTW- Non-authoritarian doesn't mean lack of rules, it means rules reached by logic and consensus, not by receiving "the word" from on high (Bush, Rush, Glenn or whomever). So I'll be happy to discuss point by point. Smoking, for example. Feel free to smoke. But YOUR right to smoke ends at my nose, not? AFA the FDLA crisis, I haven't looked into it so I have no real opinion. I can see how it COULD have been manufactured by the authorities. OTOH, I could also see how children might have been abused. If that is the case, intervention was necessary. If it makes any difference, I thought the whole Koresh thing was grossly mishandled.
Quote:I don't feel I'm attacking, I feel that I'm explaining the basis of Wulf's pretty visceral reactions in a rather neutral way. It's an model of his behavior that I find quite predictive. (It predicts what he says and how he reacts almost all of the time.) Possibly I should have PMd him instead, but the message was really for Wulf.
And by demonize, I meant attacking the Poster not the post. If your argument is so strong, why the pontificating on your perceptions of Wulf's background?
BTW, I'm using the term "authoritarian" very specifically, from this book:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
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Try looking up and then get back to me.
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posted a quick oops. My response will be above.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Frem, I obviously don't have either your or Wulf's background. I'm not good at pushing buttons, I don't know where the levers are, I don't know of any other approach than straightforward logic and... alas... I think I will never learn.
So ?
We might not always agree, and I can be right snappy about it at times, but the fact is the more windows and viewpoints you have on a subject the clearer the picture is - it's when folk smear mud on them windows I get pissed off, and the only reason I ain't ripping the folks all up in Obamas shit a new one is cause that pressure is the only way to bring enough force, misguided that it is, upon a bad idea before we get handed over on a plate to Big Pharma and the insurance companies.
I have real, valid concerns those dipwads ain't expressing, which ain't likely to get heard in all the shouting, but I do note a net positive effect in that said sandblasting is forcing them to remove a lot of side-issue flakery that doesn't belong on the core bill and should in fact be a seperate bill itself.
Meanwhile, it's right wing public suicide on a massive level, something I got NO problem with either.
Logic is a valued viewpoint, but once human emotion gets involved in things, applying it becomes a lot tricker.
As for gears & levers, think of it like a programming problem -
10 IF A=5 THEN GOSUB 100
20 IF B=5 THEN A=A+1
30 GOTO 10
100 SELECT $RNDPHRASE$ ECHO "$RNDPHRASE$"
110 RETURN
Trust me, the mentality of your average rightwingnut isn't much more complex than that when you reduce it to the components, and if you know the right INPUTS to get the correct OUTPUTS, you can make em do anything you please without em even really being aware of it.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
AFA the FDLA crisis, I haven't looked into it so I have no real opinion. I can see how it COULD have been manufactured by the authorities. OTOH, I could also see how children might have been abused. If that is the case, intervention was necessary.
Remember this thread?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=33401#602592
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Quote:Yes BDN, thank you for bringing this up. What I said was:
Remember this thread?
Quote:I had not then reached any conclusion about what was going on in the FLDS. I still haven't. I simply have not had the time to go into a detailed examination to my satisfaction about what the evidence says or does not say. But thanks for proving my point.
If the girls have undergone physical exam (and I believe they have) that would certainly reveal if underage girls are non-virgins, have signs of sexual intercourse (bruising etc.), have borne children. If the practice of marrying off and impregnating underage girls is as widespread as has been suggested, then physical evidence will be easy to find, and a case could be made based on that evidence irrespective of what the children have been taught to say.
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All of your responses in that thread and you chose that particular bit. Interesting that.
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Okay, here's another
Quote:I sprinkled my comments throughout with caveats.
But my understanding was that pedophilia was part and parcel of their belief system and that sooner or later, no matter how much "good" they may have been doing, eventually ALL girl-children would be subject to that practice. I don't think there was any way to "weed out" the "bad actors" because they were ALL supporting the same belief system. AFA what 'really" happens there... most people in that cult like being there. Most of the kids will feel terribly disrupted. Even people who left voluntarily, feeling that they'd be "damned to hell", not knowing anything of the outside world, have profound "homesickness". Boys more so than girls, but that's to be expected because boys were treated a lot better. One boy who was exiled for breaking some minor law - which BTW reserves the girls for the old farts- said that he greatly missed the feeling of "family", that you knew that no matter where you went there would always be a hot meal and a seat at the table for you (prepared, of course, by women). I think these people are reacting to the sick, uber-competitive culture that we've created. It's too bad that their only options seems to be exploitation by some pedophile.
Quote:Spent much time in the thread talking about religion in general (all cults in my mind), how I think responsibility floats to the top, the lack of a bright biological line separating "children" from "adults" (ie you don't suddenly become an adult once you've reached puberty) and how the Catholic Church shuffled pedophile priests around. So it seems funny that out of all my responses, you focus on... whatever it is you're focusing on. So OOC, which particular comment are YOU focusing on??? Care to take it out of context and post it here?? That way, we'll all know exactly how even-handed you are.
All of your responses in that thread and you chose that particular bit. Interesting that.
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