Real World Event Discussions
South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
PAGE 23 of 28
Friday, August 22, 2008 1:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Those are questions that I was asking almost seven years ago. You know what the answer I got was? "We won't need to - the Iraqis will greet us as liberators, and oil profits will fund the reconstruction." It's no truer now than it was then, and I called bullshit on it then as I do now.
Who were you asking these questions of and who was telling you that answer?
And if I consider it called bullshit will you consider not calling it anymore?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What do *I* do about it now? Nothing. *I* didn't break it - you did.
Should the Government provide universal healthcare?
No. I got mine so why do I care?
Should the government bail out homeowners?
No. I ain't got no mortgage troubles so why do I care?
Should the Government raise the minimum wage?
No. I don't make minimum wage so why do I care?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You and your right-wing Neo-con worthless asshole brethren.
Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?
Because I had the temerity to question your stance, I must be a worthless Neo-con asshole. And all Muslims are terrorists, right?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I warned you, you didn't listen, and you can take it all and shove it straight up your ass now for all I care. I told you it would be a monumental waste of human lives, both American and Iraqi, and I was told it wouldn't cost more than a few lives at the most, and the blood is squarely on YOUR hands now, because this is exactly what you wanted and what you begged for, and you fucking well deserve it. I'm sick to fucking death of the righties whinging about how "no one could have foreseen this turn of events in Iraq" - when there were several million of us who foresaw it EXACTLY as it's come to pass, and who were denounced by that very administration as being less than American in our viewpoints. Now these same right-wing assholes want us to sign off on an Iranian campaign, and they assure us that nothing could possibly go wrong this time. Well, fuck them, and fuck you for supporting them.
That was quite a little tantrum there, I hope you feel better now.
And what's with the language there son, this isn't the locker room. Show some respect for your fellow Posters.
We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened. Whatever reasoning or lack thereof for the invasion, we cannot go back in time. So constantly typing about what you may or may not have known, and when you knew it or didn't, is simply posturing, IMHO.
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Friday, August 22, 2008 2:47 AM
Quote:Just bc you can't predict obvious consequences doesn't mean everyone else is equally incapable.
We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.
I had the same problems as Kwicko with invading Iraq, well before we invaded. And we weren't the only ones. There were actual anti-war demonstrations ahead of time, objective proof that at least SOME people could either see the fallacy of the Bush drive to war, or the problems entailed with an invasion, or both. I've also been predicting the current economic meltdown for about a year. All you have to do is go back to mys posts with Fletch2 to verify.
Now, in my book, if someone has a model in their head accurate enough to predict things that I can't, I feel like I should learn from them because clearly they know something I don't. You might want to do the same, son.
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Friday, August 22, 2008 3:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just bc you can't predict obvious consequences doesn't mean everyone else is equally incapable.
Tell me how you know anything about me, my stance, or my predicting abilities, to make a statement like that. Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know. Does your model lessen the instabilities presently in Iraq? Does it lower the burden on indebted homeowners? Is it a coping mechanism? You know, plausible deniability.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I had the same problems as Kwicko with invading Iraq, well before we invaded. And we weren't the only ones. There were actual anti-war demonstrations ahead of time, objective proof that at least SOME people could either see the fallacy of the Bush drive to war, or the problems entailed with an invasion, or both.
Man that whole majority rules thing sucks. If only the US was a dictatorship with Signy as the dictator.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've also been predicting the current economic meltdown for about a year. All you have to do is go back to mys posts with Fletch2 to verify.
Yeah, I remember reading that in another thread.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, in my book, if someone has a model in their head accurate enough to predict things that I can't, I feel like I should learn from them because clearly they know something I don't. You might want to do the same, son.
Oh, but I have learned alot from different Posters in this forum, too bad the same can't be said about you.
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Friday, August 22, 2008 4:38 AM
Reality check- we were right, er, I mean correct on this, BDN. You poor righties need to defend it, to justify it, to make it the right choice...if you don't criticize the war, you accept it.
isall
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Friday, August 22, 2008 6:17 AM
Quote:
Who were you asking these questions of...
Anyone and everyone I could talk to about it. Friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, several web boards, e-mails and letters.
Quote:
...and who was telling you that answer?
Well, let's see - telling me and the rest of the nation... President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Condolleza Rice, Donald Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and the entire Republican heirarchy. I'll leave Colin Powell out of it, because he is a man of honor and integrity, and being faced with a horrible situation, he did his best to follow orders as he was trained to do as a military officer. But I did lose a great deal of respect for him for it, and I don't think he's ever recovered, professionally or personally.
Quote:
Should the Government provide universal healthcare?
No. I got mine so why do I care?
You don't.
Quote:
Should the government bail out homeowners?
No. I ain't got no mortgage troubles so why do I care?
You don't.
Quote:
Should the Government raise the minimum wage?
No. I don't make minimum wage so why do I care?
You don't.
If these are your avowed positions, you hardly gain any credibility by questioning my taking the same position in regards to your beloved little war. And truth be told, I'm right there with ya on at least two of those issues.
Quote:
Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?
Yes. You DO realize that it's an ironic statement, don't you? It's a contradiction - if I say that sweeping generalizations are always wrong, then that statement is itself a sweeping generalization, and therefore must be wrong. Do you get it?
Quote:
Because I had the temerity to question your stance, I must be a worthless Neo-con asshole.
MUST be? Not necessarily. If you throw your lot in with Bush and his cronies and support the Iraq war, then yes.
Quote:
And all Muslims are terrorists, right?
Your words, not mine. Let me guess; you never once said anything along the lines of "we should nuke the entire Middle East" or "Kill 'em all".
Quote:
That was quite a little tantrum there, I hope you feel better now.
Oh, but I do.
Quote:
And what's with the language there son, this isn't the locker room.
I'm not your son. You're not my father, nor any kin to me (thank the fates). And I'm likely older than you are, boy. Don't like the profanity? Change your screen name. Isn't that a four-letter word I see in it?
Quote:
Show some respect for your fellow Posters.
I show respect for those who earn it.
Quote:
We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.
I don't think you "get" it at all. The party on the right is the party that is essentially saying:
"Warnings about Al Qaeda? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Hunting down Bin Laden? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Liberating Iraq and making it a haven for democracy and a beacon to the Middle East? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Throwing covert operatives under the bus to settle political scores? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Firing U.S. attorneys who didn't want to play ball on caging lists and participate in election fraud? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Responding to natural disasters like Katrina? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Anticipating the mortgage meltdown? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Tanking the economy and devaluing the dollar? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Blowing the "permanent majority" that would keep us forever in power? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Having any credibility on the world diplomatic stage? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Pulling nations together to unite in an effort to eradicate terrorism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Wiping out the Taliban and Al Qaeda and putting an end to Islamic extremism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Getting you cheap oil like
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Friday, August 22, 2008 6:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reality check- we were right, er, I mean correct on this, BDN. You poor righties need to defend it, to justify it, to make it the right choice...if you don't criticize the war, you accept it.
Yup, and those reasons and justifications are changing more often than the seasons. WMD! Oil For Food! Terrorists! Al Qaeda! Hez'bollah! Hamas! Congress made us do it! Saddam must go! UN bad - US good! Support the troops! Moral imperative! Fightin' 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em here! They hate our freedoms! You're not the boss of me! I'm the decider! The Sunnis! The Shiites! The Kurds! The Iranians! The Russians! The Chinese! The North Koreans! The sky is falling!
What's next on your "wheel of misfortune" for reasons for the invasion of Iraq? Will you blame the war on flag-burning? Gay marriage? Illegal immigration? What's the reason du jour?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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Friday, August 22, 2008 6:30 AM
Quote:
Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know.
Then, pray tell, how can we know that you aren't just posturing? You SAY you know, but what proof do we have?
Quote:
Tell me how you know anything about me...
Right back atcha, sporto.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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Friday, August 22, 2008 6:53 AM
Quote:
And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.
What about my interests in those areas? What do you know of my interests in those areas? Nothing at all.
You say that "obviously" I was willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of Saddam, because you can only see black/white, on/off, war/not war in your tiny little world view. To say that I was against the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not to say that I was against doing ANYTHING at all. As I stated before, war isn't - and never should be - the FIRST option you go for. It should be the LAST option, because it renders all others unworkable.
Pulling Saddam into line would have been the first step. Remarkably, it had worked to some degree after the first Gulf War - a war which was never aimed at regime change in Iraq, but solely at driving Iraqi forces from Kuwait. George H.W. Bush understood something that Dubya never has: creating a power vacuum in Iraq was a VERY BAD IDEA. You had too many factions, all of which hated each other, but all of which were somewhat held in check by Saddam's ruthless reign. The only way removing him from power was ever going to be workable was if it were done from within.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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Friday, August 22, 2008 7:04 AM
Quote:But we were talking about war, not ANYTHING at all. You criticized me for not being willing to go to war unless it was worth the effort to go to war, yet here you are claiming the same thing. That’s a bit hypocritical. So if you can question my value of human life, simply because I don’t believe we should fight a war unless it’s worth it to do so, then I can certainly question yours, because you're more willing then me to leave innocent people at the whim of ruthless dictators.
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.
What about my interests in those areas? What do you know of my interests in those areas? Nothing at all.
You say that "obviously" I was willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of Saddam, because you can only see black/white, on/off, war/not war in your tiny little world view. To say that I was against the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not to say that I was against doing ANYTHING at all. As I stated before, war isn't - and never should be - the FIRST option you go for. It should be the LAST option, because it renders all others unworkable.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Friday, August 22, 2008 12:19 PM
And, as I've pointed out, your FIRST option seems to be to jump straight for the "war" card. You are unwilling to do anything other than jump straight into an all-out war at the drop of a hat.
Hell, I can't see why you draw the line at Darfur, Iraq, Iran, Rwanda, or Somalia - why aren't you beating your stupid war drums for invasion of Mexico? After all, they must have some sort of "ruthless dictator" if so many millions of refugees are pouring across our border to get away from him. Shouldn't we invade Mexico to fix all their problems? Apparently, we have all the answers, as long as those answers are spelled "W....A....R!"
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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