The Destruction of the US Dollar
POSTED BY: JaynezTown
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2008 00:43
VIEWED: 21107
PAGE 9 of 17
Anthony- The reason to back a currency with gold (or silver, or oil, or whatever) is because of it's relative scarcity and difficulty to reproduce. That makes it more difficult to debase a currency, altho not entirely impossible: I'm sure you've heard of "clipped coins"? And, if you look at our pennies, they're no longer pure copper, they're copper-jacketed zinc. Which brings up good reason not to use metal directly: when the value of the metal as a commodity exceeds the nominal value, then people will hoard that metal and smelt it down. So yes, coinage CAN "disappear".
Some people think that w/o the Fed Reserve and fiat money debt would disappear, the nation would be prosperous, and wars couln't be funded.
But let me remind you that the Federal Reserve system founded in 1913, not 1813. Before that, the Federal govenrment had managed to get itself into several wars, including the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and the Spanish American war. And with it came... debt. (And BTW war profiteering. But that's another story)
Quote:
The United States has had public debt since its inception. Debts incurred during the American Revolutionary War and under the Articles of Confederation led to the first yearly reported value of $75,463,476.52 on January 1, 1791. Over the following 45 years, the debt grew, briefly contracted to zero on January 8, 1835 under President Andrew Jackson but then quickly grew into the millions again. The first dramatic growth spurt of the debt occurred because of the Civil War. The debt was just $65 million in 1860, but passed $1 billion in 1863 and had reached $2.7 billion following the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
Quote:Not true. The gold standard was adopted by the USA in 1873 and re-adopted by the Bretton Woods agreement after WWII. It did not officially end until 1971 when Nixon refused to honor the French demand for gold.
Rue , you haven't lived under 'The Gold Standard' in your Lifetime...Neither have I...
1971!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
Despite that, the United States had already endured several major depressions (1807, 1893, 1929) and several minor ones (1837, 1873) and become deeply indebted in five major wars (Revolutionary. Civil, WWI, WWII, Vietnam) and two major depressions (1893, 1929).
So, what did the gold standard accomplish? Did it prevent public debt and thus keep the government out of mischief? Did it ensure prosperity? Did it create stability?
The gold standard, gold coinage, and the lack of banks has not prevented economic mayhem. All you need to do is look at the various monarchies that minted gold coins directly: the French, Spanish, and English kings, and look at their history rife with wars, debt, and revolution to realize that even government-issued gold currency doesn't create prosperity or stability.
I agree with you that the Federal Reserve System is rife with mischief and too open to corruption for political ends, but IMHO it is not the heart of the problem.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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There are MANY avenues towards power: religion, armies, trade, productivity, money, control of the media ... maybe even reason! Prolly more than that but I don't recognize them. But once a person builds up a little more power (a few more soldiers, a little more money, a dozen more acolytes) it tends to snowball as soldiers are used to conquer and create more soldiers, and money is used to create more money, and acolytes are used to covert more heathens. And ultimately power converges: the rich control the government, the government controls the soldiers, the controlled media pushes an ideology (or religion), and it all feeds on itself until resulting injustice is too great to bear and it is all brought down by revolution.
My view is that the problem is far more complex than "currency" and a great deal slippier than "the concentration of wealth". Focusing on "fiat money" is silly, and it isn't backed by the grand sweep of history.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Signy,
You misapprehend my purpose.
I do not look towards gold to create prosperity or stability. I rather look towards gold (or Silver, I'm not a filthy oreist) as a means to limit (not naive enough to use the word eliminate) the power of the issuing agency to make my money worthless.
I'm not moronic enough to think that a precious metal standard would eliminate war or war profiteering or stop governments from borrowing money. I'm flabberasted that anyone thinks such things.
Rather, I think a precious metal standard ensures that if confidence in the US turns to crap, the money in my pocket continues to be worth more than crap.
In other words, the money in my pocket is backed by more than someone's opinion of my government's value. It's backed my its own minerological content.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Okay, I understand your point. Part of my argument is with O2B, who seems to think fiat money is root cause everything bad.
AFA backing the dollar with gold (silver, oil, copper)... Alas... I think we're way past the point of it even being feasible. Once the world adopted "floating" currency by officially abandoning Bretton Woods, every currency became subject to speculation. The only way to manage your assets NOW is to realize that it's ALL open to speculation and be prepared to abandon what isn't working at a moment's notice. I realize that doesn't help the average Joe and Jane Doe who don't have enough free cash speculate. Most of us are trapped by the dollar economy anyway... we're paid in dollars, we (collectively) pay the world in dollars, and if our currency tanks then everything we import suddenly becomes that much more expensive. For better or for worse, we are at that capitalist ideal where we're all competing world-wide.
So IMHO collectively the best way to get the dollar back on track is to
Stop the insane waste of federal dollars into such money-pits as Iraq
Increase the minimum wage to get the average person back onto solid footing and out of debt. This will boost the economy in a sustainable way.
Tax higher incomes to redistribute money downwards, especially thru the mechanism of universal health care (health-related debt causes more than half of all personal bankruptcies)
Outlaw predatory lending.
I think we also need to re-develop the fear of debt and a somewhat anti-consumerist outlook. The Simplify movement, for example. Just because we want something badly doesn't make it a necessity.
My concept is to reduce the NEED for debt to at the Federal, State and personal levels. That will automatically reduce the power of banks. (BTW my current grotch is against insurance companies). That is all politically within the realm of possibility, I think.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, was there such a need to be such a jerk?
...The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo...
The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp. and that's an insult to chimps everywhere.
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Have you started to get a grip on the notion that certain commodities , Metals , or Elements DO have an 'intrinsic' worth ?
That's really where the argument started...And , almost every bone that you've uncovered proves the original point somehow...But , you continue to Dig , Dig , Dig , like an attack dog on a search for bones , and you pay no heed to paleontologists , archaeologists , or Historians , much less Economists...(Yes , I know Keynes was an Economist , but he's also a diversion to you...You've gotten in deep , working at shellacking over facts , while you embrace theories and 'opinions'. You've sought to misstate the positions of folk like myself and AnthonyT , attempted to 'put words in our mouths' , but that's due to your limited apprehension , not due to any defect in facts that we've brought out in front of you . Your 'symbols' are broken...The 'fiat' money is broken . It's your LOVE for that fiat money that is bringing US down . A hundred years ago , even Average Joes had intrinsically-valuable Lawful Money in their hands...If you support the notion of Democracy that's a good thing...If you support the notion of a stable Republic , that same Lawful Money is a good thing...
But , if you support the Privatization of Wealth and the Socialization of DEBT , then , Lawful Money stands in the way of that...)
It's simply not within your purview...You're an attack dog , for the Establishment , on a temporary search for the latest bone that you can gnaw on...
I have to give you some credit , though...
At least you're single-minded...Probably not too focused , 'cause you're doing more sniffing than seeing , while your head is in that dark hole...
But , I do get the notion that you're conducting a search , and that's a good thing .
Hopefully , something that you uncover will give you the ability to sniff out a clue , and you'll be able to help yourself , or someone else , with what you find...
In my world , there is no lack of folk who can uncover facts...
But , there is a severe shortage of folk who are actually able to apprehend the truth that those facts reveal .
The first casualty of war is always the truth...
Thanks for calling me a chimp , Siggy...
You figure that's an insult , but , to me it's really a great compliment...
Since you're fond of citing fiction to bolster your opinions , I'll go along with you , humor you , for just a tick .
Just keep in mind , in the latest iteration of PLANET OF THE APES , there are only two types of critters flying the Space Ships...
The Chimps , and the real , human , beings...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There are MANY avenues towards power: religion, armies, trade, productivity, money, control of the media ... maybe even reason!...
And ultimately power converges: the rich control the government, the government controls the soldiers, the controlled media pushes an ideology (or religion), and it all feeds on itself until resulting injustice is too great to bear and it is all brought down by revolution.
My view is that the problem is far more complex than "currency" and a great deal slippier than "the concentration of wealth". Focusing on "fiat money" is silly, and it isn't backed by the grand sweep of history.
You're right...REASON is POWER...
We're battling to change your mind...
If your mind becomes Free , then the rest will follow...
You've been a (wage)slave on the Plantation a long while now...
We want you to get a taste of Freedom...
Liberty...
'The Grand Sweep Of History' was surveyed by the Founding Fathers...They STUDIED it , rather than taking a superficial glance at it...
And , they required , soon after , that COIN be based upon a system of Weights & Measures...
Of , certain Metals , of intrinsic Value...
Sure , even the most foolish criminals of low birth know about shaving or clipping coins...
But , any Merchant with a simple scale can tell whether a coin is 'up to spec' , in just a short time...
That's the nature of intrinsic value , of True Substance...A way that value can be exchanged , one thing of worth , for another thing of worth...
A lot of Folk can do the Math , on that...
But , others can't , or won't , or don't...
About 410 Million 'FRN' 'Dollars' are produced on printing presses every day in the US...
But , more than that amount ia being expended every day in Iraq...
That's not only 'inflationary' , but the interest alone that comes due on that deficit , could be enough to 'crash the system'...
If one keeps adding energy to a BAD SYSTEM , it can only inevitably become a BIG , BAD SYSTEM...
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Quote:Do you suppose you could tone down the righteousness? Your spittle is flying and it's splattering my screen.
Have you started to get a grip on the notion that certain commodities , Metals , or Elements DO have an 'intrinsic' worth ?
I guess first of all, I dispute your notion of "intrinsic worth". I'm not sure I know WHAT you mean by "intrinsic worth", since it seems to wobble between "supply/demand" and "inherent properties" To clarify, do you mean...?
Quote:
An intrinsic theory of value is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic or contained in the item itself. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value.
For my viewpoint, ANY physical item has SOME sort of value. For a while, the medium of exchange was salt ("worth his salt") because it was extremely necessary, rare, and light. The exchange value of gold is based on the demand versus the supply. At the moment, it's exchange value IMHO far exceeds its value as an industrial metal. In fact, the major use of gold is jewelry.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp.
you continue to Dig , Dig , Dig , like an attack dog ...You're an attack dog
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I like my chances...
After all , I'm the 'chimp' with the gun...
Always better to be the chimp , than to be the chump...
Siggy just begs to be the chump...
No matter how many times anything gets shown to him , he just circles the hydrant and looks for something to lift his leg over...
The rest of the time , his head is down in the hole , and his tail end is in the air...
He doesn't even know , he's really getting boned at both ends...
Sad .
History shows him the bones in the hole in the ground , while the Establishment shows his arse a bone of a different sort...
Can't see how he'd find that so comforting...
He's got my Pity ; but no Sympathy from me...
He just needs to learn to be still...Watch things for a bit...Maybe learn a new trick or two...
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Quote:
Just because we want something badly doesn't make it a necessity.
Blasphemer! How dare you say that my 42-inch HDTV isn't a necessity! I mean, seriously, have you WATCHED Firefly on Universal HD on a really large screen? It is quite necessary. :)
Siggy, I've heard you called many things over the years, but an attack dog for the establishment? That really takes the cake. This person doesn't know you at all, does he?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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