The Destruction of the US Dollar
POSTED BY: JaynezTown
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2008 00:43
VIEWED: 21107
PAGE 8 of 17
Hello,
All items are subject to market forces of supply and demand. The argument I am presenting (perhaps not the argument of others) is that
A) Precious metal is portable, and thus suitable for use in pocket-carried currency
B) Precious metal's value may fluctuate, but is universally higher than the value of paper (except when completely removed from civilization, I grant.)
and so
C) Even if national market forces collapse, precious-metal currency retains a value for trade with outside agencies, where paper-based or non-precious metal currency does not.
D) Real Estate, Arable Land, and Fresh Water have no portability, and are not good candidates for currency. Further, title to such items relies on the stability of the issuing government.
The bottom line is this: When an economy is booming, paper money (depending on denomination) may be worth more than gold, but gold is not worthless. When an economy collapses, gold is still not worthless, but paper currency is.
Hence, gold (and other precious metals) have a better 'minimum value' base than paper currency, whose value is exclusively dependent in the confidence of the issuing agency.
I will admit this: In the presence of a worldwide economic collapse where all civilization dies, gold will have lost its 'universal' appeal.
In which case, strong adults and weapons will be the new currency used for obtaining and retaining wealth and property until civilization is re-established.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food."
And the gold became vulture stomach grist. Nice way to evade the point.
So mebee I'll have to be really, really explicit. If gold is so valuable why didn't starving people steal it ? Could it possibly be that gold is subject to market forces of supply and demand, and when demand drops gold loses its 'value' ? And if gold loses its value, how could that value be intrinsic ?
"Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that 'exceeds' the globally accepted value of paper."
And how do you quantify that when your metric is the equivalence between paper (currency) and silver ? (As in silver is 'worth' so many dollars per ounce.) Your argument is circular - silver is 'worth' more than dollars because it's worth so many dollars per ounce. Or in reverse, currency is worth so much mass of silver.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Hello,
A better way to make my point:
If I take a pound of Paper, and print "One thousand Ron Paul Dollars" on it, and take that paper to England, France, or Russia, what will it be worth to them?
If I take a pound of Gold, and stamp "One thousand Ron Paul Dollars" on it, and take that paper to England, France, or Russia, what will it be worth to them?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I see we cross-posted.
I understand what you're saying. But I see it as a survivalist-style reaction to the Bush policies that have devalued the dollar (quite on purpose, as an assault on the middle-class). And what you imply is that an individual survivalist reaction is just the thing on which to base national policy.
It's the policies that are at fault, not the currency. And a 'gold standard' would not improve the policies one bit.
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And to try to catch up on our cross-posting - having traded in gold I can tell you it's not quite that easy. For one thing you'd have to show valid provenance for the gold, or have it re-assayed.
But even more than that - let's say the US goes on the gold standard. What does it trade to get that gold ? See the problem ? And once it has enough gold to 'back' whatever amount of currency is out there at whatever the chosen level will be - how does it cash in on the value of its gold without disturbing the market ? Your trade and my trade don't jiggle the market one bit, but the government's would drive the market to extremes (as a consequence of gold being a commodity.)
Even further, you can have ruinous economic policies, gold-standard or no. See SignyM's historic argument and 'cross of gold' reference.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !
O2B- you're conflating at least five things (maybe more, once I read your posts carefully): intrinsic value, taxes, control of currency, interest/ debt, prosperity. But for this particular point- if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.
Really , I'm sorry to be so harsh about this , but if you care for the Future of Your Country , or Your Family , or Yourself , you really need to learn why these economic facts and fundamentals are so important...
If I seem to 'conflate' (synthesize the Big Picture , well , I'm known for that...) , at least I'm not confused...
I mean to confound these bungers !
More on this, soon...
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food."
And the gold became vulture stomach grist. Nice way to evade the point.
So mebee I'll have to be really, really explicit. If gold is so valuable why didn't starving people steal it ? Could it possibly be that gold is subject to market forces of supply and demand, and when demand drops gold loses its 'value' ? And if gold loses its value, how could that value be intrinsic ?
"Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that 'exceeds' the globally accepted value of paper."
And how do you quantify that when your metric is the equivalence between paper (currency) and silver ? (As in silver is 'worth' so many dollars per ounce.) Your argument is circular - silver is 'worth' more than dollars because it's worth so many dollars per ounce. Or in reverse, currency is worth so much mass of silver.
You're making the 'circular arguments' , Rue...
The pictures of suffering aren't sustaining your argument at all...They're just a diversionary tactic...
AnthonyT didn't fall for your feint...
The reason why 'starving people' don't steal gold to buy food :
First , they don't have the energy to do it...They're starving !
Secondly , they're living in places where they've been disarmed , usually by force...
Thirdly , the countries where they're starving are usually 'debtor' nations where their leaders have exploited the land's wealth for personal gain , and the 'economies' of those nations don't have any solid commodity backing their 'currency' either...They have 'paper' money , made as fast as the presses can run , and it's still not being made quickly enough...Ironically , these nations are usually not lacking in natural resources...
Usually , they have large reserves of something...
Witness Zimbabwe as one recent example--'INFLATION' is running an unimaginable figure...I've heard it's about 300,000 percent .
Paper 'currency', again...Corrupt dictator , again...
Any of this beginning to sound familiar ?
It really should...
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I understand what you're saying. But I see it as a survivalist-style reaction to the Bush policies that have devalued the dollar (quite on purpose, as an assault on the middle-class). And what you imply is that an individual survivalist reaction is just the thing on which to base national policy.
It's the policies that are at fault, not the currency. And a 'gold standard' would not improve the policies one bit.
***************************************************************
And to try to catch up on our cross-posting - having traded in gold I can tell you it's not quite that easy. For one thing you'd have to show valid provenance for the gold, or have it re-assayed.
But even more than that - let's say the US goes on the gold standard. What does it trade to get that gold ? See the problem ? And once it has enough gold to 'back' whatever amount of currency is out there at whatever the chosen level will be - how does it cash in on the value of its gold without disturbing the market ? Your trade and my trade don't jiggle the market one bit, but the government's would drive the market to extremes (as a consequence of gold being a commodity.)
Even further, you can have ruinous economic policies, gold-standard or no. See SignyM's historic argument and 'cross of gold' reference.
The 'cross of gold' argument is bogus...WJB was a flowery orator who impressed a bunch of rubes...Not saying he wasn't a good talker , or that they weren't a fine bunch of Reubens , just saying that WJB was a politician , and since he was not keen about gold , he was probably strong in his holdings of silver...
Back then , EVERYBODY who had as much as a nickel had silver...And , it could trade its True Substance for another commodity of True Substance...
A Federal Reserve Note can't do that...It is not Lawful Money ; It is not so 'valuable' , in an intrinsic sense , as are Metals...A 'NOTE' is not something to pay a debt , it is an Instrument for Conveying , Increasing , and Accumulating DEBT...
Have you ever been able to cancel a Debt , that is , PAY someone , by giving them an 'I.O.U.' ?
Definitions--
MORT-gage or 'House Note'--An Instrument of Debt , designed for the profit of Banksters , with the intent of keeping the debtor on a program of paying compounding interest until he DIES...
From the French , by way of the Latin...
CAR Note--An Instrument of Debt , designed for the profit of Banksters , with the intent of keeping the debtor on a program of debt until the 'durable good' is WORN OUT...Reference : CONSUMER Debt , and 'Human Resources' or 'Human Capital' , etc.
FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE--An Instrument of DEBT , DEBT , DEBT , designed to exploit all the Human Capital , 'Labor' , 'Consumers' , Natural Resources , Real Estate , Capital , Securities , Treasure , etc. , of the Citizens of the United States of America , and turn it all into the Property of the (Un-Elected , but Elect) Banksters of the Federal Reserve...and , Their Cronies and Co-CONspirators...
Rue , you haven't lived under 'The Gold Standard' in your Lifetime...Neither have I...
100 years ago , 1908 , how much 'National Debt' did this country have ?
How much does it have Now ?
What happened to this Nation's treasure ?
Its Reserves of Gold , Silver , and Copper , that were in GENERAL CIRCULATION , for the most part ?
Did it all just EVAPORATE ?
Is it all in 'Fort Knox' ? Where is it ?
How does ANYBODY know where it is ?
Has ANYONE seen it lately ? Hullo , is anybody home ?
Where is the Wealth of this Nation ?
Here's some interesting reading , that won't make it to the Major Media outlets for a while...
Maybe not ever..." We crashing again ? "
Disclaimer : It's for general informational and educational purposes only , and should not necessarily be construed to represent the viewpoints of IndependentBrowncoat 'Out2theBlack'...
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=232547
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Hello,
Rue and others, I support entirely that it is possible to have ruinous economic policies that can devastate a region and a people no matter what the currency is.
I merely believe that having currency that also happens to be a valued trade item independent from its source nation ensures that a percentage of the money's value is protected.
A fifty dollar bill may someday prove to be valueless, but an ounce of silver with the words 'Fifty US Dollars' stamped on it will always be an ounce of silver. Perhaps that ounce of silver will be worth 20 dollars here or 40 dollars there, depending on the demand of silver in the market, but it won't ever be worth zero dollars in most places.
And it's true, a desire to put precious metals directly into our currency is a reaction to ruinous fiscal policy that has brought our nation to the brink of disaster.
Which makes it, in my opinion, no less a good idea.
What I find funny is that there are arguments here from people who all agree with one another.
One people are arguing from a premise of, "We need to fix the economy, not the currency!"
The other people are arguing from a premise of, "We need to fix the currency, because I don't trust the bastards to fix the economy."
And the logical end result is to work on choosing representatives who will fix the economy while also reserving a small quantity of precious metal to use for emergency commerce in case the worst happens.
In an economic collapse, you may only get 20 cents on the dollar for your gold on the black market, but that's a lot better than no cents on the dollar from a worthless paper scrip. It might be enough to get emergency supplies, bribe law enforcement, and book passage.
And then those few lucky Americans can enjoy the life of an immigrant worker someplace else.
I hope this sentiment is alarmist bullshit that never comes to pass. I hope we can fix what we broke.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Out2 - The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo and thus, both unsafe to hold and propogate, as well as requiring a near total restructuring of stuff folk have (mistakenly) believed all their lives.
Only folk who maybe WOULD listen to you, are folks who've not yet entered our debt-slave economy as worker drones, and those are mostly powerless politically.
Such a neat little trap, isn't it ?
-F
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Quote:Do you have an actual point buried in all of these insults?
Oh , Puhleeeze DO !
Do you ever even bother to READ the sources that you cite ?
You keep proving my points , over and over again , and you don't even know that you're doing it !
It would be somewhat less shocking if you didn't do it time and again , but you persist , Ad Infinitum!
I have laughed so hard until I've gotten sleepy from exhaustion , and you bore me so badly that I must go take a nap !
You are very tiresome , and I think it's because you've clearly been 'educated' beyond your capacity for intelligence...
I'm truly sorry about that...Plainly you have bought into the banksters Propaganda...Ah , well , some people juggle geese...
Apparently not.
You have no idea what I think do you?
Yes, a rich minority was in control of the economy.
No, it wasn't just bankers.
The REASON to debase the currency is because the runaway concentration of wealth into the hands of the wealthy (not just bankers) causes aggregate demand to fall. The Keynsian solution (actually discovered years before Keynes) was simply to create more currency.
It's not the currency that's the problem, it's the apparently inevitable tendency of power (money) to concentrate.
It happens whether the currency is cowrie shells, gold, or paper, or whether the powerful are kings, bankers, or priests. It happened just b4 the French Revolution. It happened in ancient Egypt.
Now, was there such a need to be such a jerk?
Quote:
The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo
The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp. and that's an insult to chimps everywhere.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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