Waterboarding- the real deal
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2008 01:12
VIEWED: 11112
PAGE 22 of 23
Quote:Oh, like slavery and the slaughter of Native Americans, most of which occurred AFTER the formation of the nation?
even events which predate the country
Quote:Okay, so NOW we're supposed to limit ourselves to "today"? What about "yesterday"? What about under Clinton? Reagan? Nixon? Johnson? How much of our history do we have to elide in order to prove your point? I mean, after all, you DO like to point to Reagan as a success story. And you DID reference World War II. Are we now supposed to ignore that now? One wouldn't want to think you were being selective, would one? I mean, you wouldn't actually black out huge swaths of history, would you?
We're talking about current times, and events under the control of folks TODAY, not about that which occurred beyond our ability to control. That's for a different thread.
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I mentioned WW2 because YOU brought it up, and to to prove a point. That dropping two bombs helped end the war quicker and saved more lives overall. But you only seem interested in showing 1 side of the story, the one which only shows the US in the worst possible light, never once accepting the possibility that, as bad as some of the choices we made were, the alternatives were even worse.
Naw, That'd be too much for you to accept.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Well, I hate to be picky, but YOU did:
I mentioned WW2 because YOU brought it up
Quote:And so since YOU brought up WWII AND WWI, and have often cited Reagan as your hero, I wonder exactly how we're supposed to hop, skip and jump through history?
Guess what ? Millions of civilians died in WW's 1 and 2 also, and the world actually thanked us for that too
Quote:No, I'm not. I never said that the USA hasn't done any good. You, OTOH, were quite categorical in your statement We don't torture and kill innocent civilians. I didn't hear any exceptions or caveats. And so you've demonstrated my point quite well: Basically, you hunt for supportive data and avoid everything noncongruent. WWI, WWI, Reagan... check, check, check. Says what you want. Vietnam, Native Americans, Iran, Nicaragua, slavery, Iraq... too far in the past. Or, er... something. I'm sure you'll find a rationalization to mentally slide over several million deaths, untold suffering, and other facts that make you uncomfortable and challenge your views.
But you only seem interested in showing 1 side of the story
But how do you expect to ever understand the world as it is if you have to elide so much in order for it to "make sense"? If I had to toss most data to preserve my model, I would think that the fault was not with the data but perhaps with my model. All that would be academic except that we use our mental models not only to explain the past but also to predict the future. (That's why I bow to whoever can predict the most the best: that is the REAL test of a model.) And if you're working with a model that's so limited, you will of course be blind-sided by events over and over and over again and you'll always be in reactive mode.
I can guarantee you that if stop trying to impose your views of the world on everything, if you let go of your overweening assumptions initially you'll be uncomfortable but in the end you'll get to more solid footing.
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As a rule, the USA does not ( present tense ) do what you accuse it of doing.
The idea that we 'torture and murder' in the name of freedom has not been substantiated here. You want to bring up slavery or any other random issue from the past, have at it, but I'm not bothering to discuss that here.
q It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Present tense? Do you mean at this very moment? What about yesterday? Or am I "allowed" to go back to the beginning of the Bush (your hero) administration, which was almost eight years ago?
And if you narrow it down to ... oh say the past year or two... how do you justify reaching back to WWI for examples of our shining goodness? If YOU point to the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, WWI, WWII can I insist that you have to stick to "today"? And if not- why not? Or do you want to only play this by your very biased rules?
Anyway, I'm done talking with you. It's clear that you don't have a sliver of objectivity anywhere in your mental toolkit.
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Current military action, current administration.
And Bush isn't my " hero " , despite what you'd like to believe.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Okay Rap, I'll humor you. First I recommend that you go to this website http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony
and listen to what veterans of the Iraq War have to say. Many of these guys have been on multiple tours of duty in Iraq and they're from all branches. If anyone has an idea of what the war is really like, it's them.
To give you (and everyone else) a snapshot of what you'll hear and see, there's this:
Quote:Now, I didn't go trolling the internet for horrific cases or statistics. This is just what popped up when I googled iraq+veterans+"rules of engagement".
Garret Reppenhagen received integral training about the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of Engagement during his deployment in Kosovo. But in Iraq, "Much of this was thrown out the window," he says.
... Reppenhagen served in Iraq from February 2004-2005 in the city of Baquba, 40 kms northeast of Baghdad. He said his first experience in Iraq was being on a patrol that killed two Iraqi farmers as they worked in their field at night.
"I was told they were out in the fields farming because their pumps only operated with electricity, which meant they had to go out in the dark when there was electricity," he explained, "I asked the sergeant, if he knew this, why did he fire on the men. He told me because the men were out after curfew. I was never given another ROE during my time in Iraq."
Another veteran of the occupation of Iraq on the panel was Vincent Emmanuel. He served in the Marines near the northern Iraqi city of Al-Qaim during 2004-2005. Emmanuel explained that "taking potshots at cars that drove by" happened all the time and "these were not isolated incidents".
... As other panelists nodded in agreement, Emmanuel spoke of abusing prisoners who he knew were innocent adding, "We took it upon ourselves to harass them, and took them to the desert to throw them out of our Humvees, while kicking and punching them when we threw them out."
I DID watch the testimony tho, and I suggest you educate yourself and do the same. The point of the testimony is not that it's just a few incidents here and there, it's SOP. Shooting at anything that moves, taking out frustrations on Iraqi civilians and innocent prisoners has become the ROE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay Rap, I'll humor you. First I recommend that you go to this website http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony
and listen to what veterans of the Iraq War have to say. Many of these guys have been on multiple tours of duty in Iraq and they're from all branches. If anyone has an idea of what the war is really like, it's them.
To give you (and everyone else) a snapshot of what you'll hear and see, there's this:
You conveniently left out this part of what Reppenhagen said.
“The men I served with are professionals,” Reppenhagen told the audience at a panel of U.S. veterans speaking of their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, “They went to Iraq to defend the U.S. But we found rapidly we were killing Iraqis in horrible ways. But we had to in order to remain safe ourselves. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/03/us-iraq-rules-of-engagement-thro
wn-out-the-window/
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I watched the full testimony and I suggest you do the same. The point was made, over and over and over and over that the ROE had completely broken down due to frustration, lack of clear objectives, and tacit (and explicit) approval of superior officers. Every zone was a "free-fire" zone. Innocent people were knowingly killed just because. And the contractors were even worse because they felt unbound by any military discipline. They would shoot at civilians for fun (and some military guys did the same).
This isn't just an argument. Sure you can grab a snippet and pound on it, ignore the main point and feel smug because you think you've "won", but there is real world out there where "our people" are killing civilians and becoming morally, emotionally and mentally damaged from the experience. And that's not even taking into account all the blowback that we're earning.
There were over 30 veterans that testified. Some had experiences that were worse than others, depending on where they were located and what their superior officers expected/ tolerated. So if you don't trust my summary- and there's no reason why you should- and if you REALLY want to support and honor the troops and understand what they went through, I again urge you to educate yourself and listen to what these guys had to say.
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Too may people here - Kirkules is only one example - already 'know' all they want to know. Asking them to include more information in an unbiased way that contradicts what they believe - is pointless.
They will never - and I mean absolutely, categorically never - avail themselves of the entire set of information. They will never get the big picture. What they will always do, as you have seen, is find miniscule bits to justify their forgone conclusions.
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