Water-boarding 'would be torture'

POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 08:12
VIEWED: 4122
PAGE 1 of 1

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:28 PM

Quote:
US national intelligence chief Mike McConnell has said the interrogation technique of water-boarding "would be torture" if he were subjected to it.

Mr McConnell said it would also be torture if water-boarding, which involves simulated drowning, resulted in water entering a detainee's lungs.

He told the New Yorker there would be a "huge penalty" for anyone using it if it was ever determined to be torture.

The US attorney-general has declined to rule on whether the method is torture.

However, Michael Mukasey said during his Senate confirmation hearing that water-boarding was "repugnant to me" and that he would institute a review.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7185648.stm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

GEEZER

Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:20 PM

Cool. So all three people who have been water-boarded by the CIA can sue. Since the CIA banned it in 2003, they better hurry, before the statute of limitations runs out.

"Have you or a loved one suffered the indignity of ... WATERBOARDING? Our team of top-notch lawyers is ready to get you the justice you deserve. Call 1-800-WTRBORD today. Operators are standing by.

(lawyers not licensed to practice in Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, or most anywhere else)

"Keep the Shiny side up"

AURAPTOR

Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:36 PM

Great. Now all the terrorsit have to fear is being fed too much or the prayer rugs being too soft.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:52 PM

Citizen

These poor deluded folk are beyond reach. They think that a government out of control is somehow not going to be interested in them. This despite Real ID (TM), 'voter fraud' and mandatory entry into a biometric database.

***************************************************************
Baaaaaaa baaaaaa baaaa

CHRISISALL

Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Cool. So all three people who have been water-boarded by the CIA can sue.

Cool. So it's a numbers game for you Geezer. Torture is only bad past a certain amount of persons harmed...what- like a thousand?

Silly person...

Not just a biped Chrisisall

KIRKULES

Monday, January 14, 2008 12:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
"Have you or a loved one suffered the indignity of ... WATERBOARDING? Our team of top-notch lawyers is ready to get you the justice you deserve. Call 1-800-WTRBORD today. Operators are standing by.

(lawyers not licensed to practice in Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, or most anywhere else)

Man, I'm calling that number. My older brother used to hold me under until I ingested water every time I got in the same swimming pool with him. It might not technically have been Water-boarding but I think I should be able to sue him anyway. I'm sure some of you would submit affidavits confirming the Dain Bramage I may have sustained.

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 12:29 AM

Baaaaaaa baaaaaa baaaa

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 4:53 AM

And that was my quick and dirty answer.

In extended english what it means is this - people are turning a blind eye to the government taking away essential liberties and privacies. That's b/c there's a little voice that says 'it's not going to be about me. It's going to be about them'.

But in fact it's about a government out of control, taking absolute power to itself and answerable to no one. Once people wake up and realize it IS about them - it will be too late.

If torture, lack of habeas corpus, gitmo and the rest seem too remote, here are the progeny that ARE about YOU:
RealID
so-called voter fraud
FBI biometrics database "Covert iris- and face-image capture is several years away, but it is of great interest to government agencies." And what would be the use of covert biometrics without that massive government database - eh ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIMONWHO

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:18 AM

What I want to know is where are the militias? All these hardened men with guns and grenades and tough looking faces, insisting they were preparing to fight the government when it went too far.

What exactly are they waiting for?

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, January 14, 2008 12:41 PM

The frikkin' Log Flume Ride at Disneyworld throws more water on you than waterboarding. I think some are confusing bathing with torture, although to the terrorists, I can see why they'd feel they were tortured if they ever came into contact with water.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, January 14, 2008 1:19 PM

"What exactly are they waiting for?"

A chance to use those "Damn Liberals" as target practice ?

Most militias are unfortunately quite overpopulated with folk who think things are just FINE the way they are, and the more lynched darkies, ay-rabs, and yellowmen the better.

Those few that were not such easily-leashed and controlled, or run by more rational folk have either gone deep under and moved to a cell-structure type, or have been quietly smashed and destroyed one by one...

Those that remain are left alone by the feddies cause they're a disgrace and discredit to the entire idea (the exact intent of leaving them alone, mind you) and easily manipulated to boot.

I would not count on them for support barring a total REX-84 type meltdown, and even then they would be of little help due to being heavily engaged with the yee-haw we finally get to lynch some folk types described above...

Not to mention, the more reasonal/professional ones, at the bottom of it...

No one stood up for them, when it came to cases, so I very well doubt they'd stand up for the folk who left em swing back in the 90's, oh hell no.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So it's a numbers game for you Geezer.

Sort of. How many pages/blogs/threads/reports/articles/discussions have there been here and elsewhere condemning the US government for waterboarding three people, all of whom are still alive, and none waterboarded after 2003?

How many pages/blogs/threads/reports/articles/discussions have there been here and elsewhere condemning Al Queda and its fellow travelers for blowing up thousands of innocent people in markets, temples, schools, stores, etc., all of whom are still dead, and such events still occur every day?

The numbers just don't add up.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SERGEANTX

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
The numbers just don't add up.

It's not the numbers, its the fact that our fucking government doesn't have the dignity to condemn the practice.

It's my sincerest hope that all the supporters of waterboarding have the opportunity to go through it. And not as a fun stunt with their buddies, but administered by people they don't know or trust, having no idea whether they'll survive the process or not. Then then can tell us all how is was like a log-flume ride.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:28 PM

Water boarding IS torture. Sorry folks, but it is.

If we use torutre, how can we say we are any better than those that use other forms of toture? Say, like pulling out your fingernails? Or electro shock? Or sleep deprivation? Or the old favorite...beating you mercilessly?

What happens when its decided to use water-boarding on ordinary citizens (not suspected terorists) who piss off the government?

Don't pay your parking ticket? Thats a torture.

Don't file your taxes on time? Thats a torture.

Think that the government and its employees, should be replaced with sane, intelligent, and honorable CITIZENS?

Oh you better believe thats a torture.

HERO

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Cool. So all three people who have been water-boarded by the CIA can sue. Since the CIA banned it in 2003, they better hurry, before the statute of limitations runs out.

"Have you or a loved one suffered the indignity of ... WATERBOARDING? Our team of top-notch lawyers is ready to get you the justice you deserve. Call 1-800-WTRBORD today. Operators are standing by.

It would be barred by the Federal Tort Claims Act.

And the fella said it would be torture if he were waterboarded. Me too...it'd be torture to me. But I don't think that means its torture to everyone. In fact I think its NOT torture to waterboard Jihadists or reality TV producers.

H

HERO

Monday, January 14, 2008 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
What happens when its decided to use water-boarding on ordinary citizens (not suspected terorists) who piss off the government?

Don't pay your parking ticket? Thats a torture.

Don't file your taxes on time? Thats a torture.

It'd make my job a whole lot easier, and since I only prosecute guilty people, there's no real harm is there?

We could set up torture rooms in all the police stations. You liberal types would not mind...after all a little systematic govt-sponsored torture is nothing to get all up in arms about. Certainly not worth going to war over. So why not?

H

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
What happens when its decided to use water-boarding on ordinary citizens (not suspected terorists) who piss off the government?

What happens when flying angel monkeys come down from heaven and give us all magic wish granting bananas? One is about as likely as the other. Note that three people have been waterboarded to gather intelligence, the last was prior to 2003, and all three are still alive. Leaping from this to waterboarding for parking tickets is either hyperbole or nonsense, maybe both.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 4:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It's not the numbers, its the fact that our fucking government doesn't have the dignity to condemn the practice.

So the fact that they don't do it anymore, since 2003, doesn't mean anything to you? Or the fact that all the rants about routinely waterboarding just about anybody turn out to be bogus? You hear "waterboarding" and get all red in the face and irate, but you hear "car bomb in market kills 20" and go "Meeh, what do you expect?"

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Monday, January 14, 2008 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
What happens when flying angel monkeys come down from heaven and give us all magic wish granting bananas?

It couldn't happen here.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

FLETCH2

Monday, January 14, 2008 6:27 PM

Make a great Doctor Who episode though... because banana's are good.

SERGEANTX

Monday, January 14, 2008 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So the fact that they don't do it anymore, since 2003, doesn't mean anything to you?

Sure it does. If it is a fact. But it also means a lot that they won't reject it as a practice. It means a lot that our chickenshit "leaders" shuffle their feet, look at the ground and mutter weak-assed euphemisms like 'advanced interrogation techniques' when asked about it. What in the hell is it supposed to mean when they equivocate in that way? Because it sure doesn't sound like "We don't waterboard."

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 7:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
How many pages/blogs/threads/reports/articles/discussions have there been here and elsewhere condemning the US government for waterboarding three people, all of whom are still alive, and none waterboarded after 2003?

, First of all, biped, you/we don't KNOW that, but you go on believing anything you're told, okay?

Quote:

How many pages/blogs/threads/reports/articles/discussions have there been here and elsewhere condemning Al Queda and its fellow travelers for blowing up thousands of innocent people in markets, temples, schools, stores, etc., all of whom are still dead, and such events still occur every day?

Geezer, how come you don't post anything about it being so cold in space?? Should I infer that you want to see all Americans do the 20 second jig in the frosty bits between planets? Is THAT what you advocate by your omission of directly addressing the subject??? You want us all to die in SPACE??????!!!!

You are so a biped, Geez.

Chrisisall

FLETCH2

Monday, January 14, 2008 7:50 PM

Who dreams this stuff up? I mean I would never have considered something like waterboarding, it would never have crossed my mind to do something like that.

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 7:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Who dreams this stuff up? I mean I would never have considered something like waterboarding, it would never have crossed my mind to do something like that.

Someone in the Gov't saw the Buffy ep where the Ubervamp was doing it to Spike & decided to try it for real on a person that actually breathed....

They're copycatsisall

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 9:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, how come you don't post anything about it being so cold in space??

So terrorism is just a natural phenomenon, and we should accept it as such, without any anger at those who perpetrate it or dismay over the loss of life?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 9:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So terrorism is just a natural phenomenon, and we should accept it as such, without any anger at those who perpetrate it or dismay over the loss of life?

My point, genius biped, is that not posting about the obvious does not a pro-terrorist (or a pro-freezing-in-the-vacuum-of-space) make.

Ever been shot? You need to be shot....

Jubalisall

KIRKULES

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Who dreams this stuff up? I mean I would never have considered something like waterboarding, it would never have crossed my mind to do something like that.

People who torture people every day for a living probably started to develop back problems from bending their victims backward over a horse trough. Their employers probably bought them back braces but they still all eventually asked for transfers to the finger nail pulling department. I think some smart middle manager in the simulated drowning department came up with water-boarding as a way of keeping his best employees.

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:20 PM

*snicker*isall

CITIZEN

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
People who torture people every day for a living probably started to develop back problems from bending their victims backward over a horse trough. Their employers probably bought them back braces but they still all eventually asked for transfers to the finger nail pulling department. I think some smart middle manager in the simulated drowning department came up with water-boarding as a way of keeping his best employees.

F**king microsoft.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, how come you don't post anything about it being so cold in space??

So terrorism is just a natural phenomenon, and we should accept it as such, without any anger at those who perpetrate it or dismay over the loss of life?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Keep up the good posts Geezer. The Rennaissance Fair crowd is demonstrating more than their usual obtuse twittiness today. Your sound, calm truth and logic leaves them no alternative. They don't want to do anything to fight terrorists. Heaven forbid we eavesdrop on someone calling a cave in Tora Bora, or a group moving money in and out of the First Infidels Will Die Bank. But what they really mean is gee won't I be fucked if someone hears me talking to my drug dealer.

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My point is that not posting about the obvious does not a pro-terrorist (or a pro-freezing-in-the-vacuum-of-space) make.

Ever been shot? You need to be shot....

No, it makes you someone who doesn't care enough about folk getting blown up by terrorists to say anything - silence being consent, and all. And if you consider waterboarding obviously torture, why post about it either? Must be that you care more about a handfull of Al Queda top brass who got 'tortured' for a couple minutes and are still alive than the thousands (tens of thousands?) of folks gowing about their lives killed by Al Queda's bombs.

And, yeah, I have been shot.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
No, it makes you someone who doesn't care enough about folk getting blown up by terrorists to say anything - silence being consent, and all.

Then why do you silently consent to international piracy? I've never seen you speak out on it.

Or for that matter Wife beating. QED.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Your sound, calm truth and logic leaves them no alternative.

EFFUE, you steaming pile of go-se!!!!!

Uh, I mean, I disagree with you here, J.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
silence being consent, and all.

I also condone overfishing of our oceans...

Quote:

And, yeah, I have been shot.

Did you live?

The evil, sarcastic Chrisisall

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Your sound, calm truth and logic leaves them no alternative.
EFFUE, you steaming pile of go-se!!!!!

Uh, I mean, I disagree with you here, J.

Chrisisall

That's nice. Can't handle the truth I guess Chrissyboy. Sorry to have upset you.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Then why do you silently consent to international piracy? I've never seen you speak out on it.

Perhaps if this thread was about sweeping changes to maritime law you might have a point.

CITIZEN

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Perhaps if this thread was about sweeping changes to maritime law you might have a point.

I have a point now, regardless of this threads topic. Apparrently not expressly condemning something means consent, Geezer hasn't expressly condemned piracy here or anywhere else, thus by his own logic he must silently condone it. He introduced no limitations to his statement, if he had you would have a point, but he didn't.

But if for some unfathomable reason it must be limited to this thread and subject, why do you silently condone terrorism? Why do you silently condone torture? You've spoken out against neither here, and by your adapted version of Geezers definition, that means you silently condone them.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Monday, January 14, 2008 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I have a point now, regardless of this threads topic. Apparrently not expressly condemning something means consent, Geezer hasn't expressly condemned piracy here or anywhere else, thus by his own logic he must silently condone it. He introduced no limitations to his statement, if he had you would have a point, but he didn't.

And why discuss the topic at hand when you can delve into the minutia of semantics to sidetrack it.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But if for some unfathomable reason it must be limited to this thread and subject, why do you silently condone terrorism? Why do you silently condone torture? You've spoken out against neither here, and by your adapted version of Geezers definition, that means you silently condone them.

I condone neither. I find torture inhumane but I find senseless slaughter of innocents inhumane as well. Depriving someone of their right to freedom is inhumane and yet it is sometimes necessary for the well being of others, do you not agree?
And why is the endpoint always so grim? I believe someone suggested being waterboarded in the future for not paying their taxes. If that is the case, where are all of the present day Iraqi internment camps?

GEEZER

Monday, January 14, 2008 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Then why do you silently consent to international piracy? I've never seen you speak out on it.

Probably because it's never come up here. The topic of Al Queda terror has, and usually ends up with you and your cronies making excuses and saying "they're no worse than the US government".

Quote:
Or for that matter Wife beating. QED.

If your wife wants to beat you, I have no objection.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KIRKULES

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But in fact it's about a government out of control, taking absolute power to itself and answerable to no one.

FBI biometrics database "Covert iris- and face-image capture is several years away, but it is of great interest to government agencies." And what would be the use of covert biometrics without that massive government database - eh ?

It confuses me how someone who constantly tells us that we should trust the government to run health care, and we have nothing to fear from government regulation of firearms, can object to big brother stamping a bar code on everyone's forehead. Just think of the savings in paperwork when we all apply for those "free" government services you advocate.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
And why discuss the topic at hand when you can delve into the minutia of semantics to sidetrack it.

Why admit you're wrong when you can bait people instead? The thread hasn't been on topic for awhile, and it was Geezer who made out that not activily shouting something down means you condone it. Faulty logic at best.

Quote:
I condone neither. I find torture inhumane but I find senseless slaughter of innocents inhumane as well. Depriving someone of their right to freedom is inhumane and yet it is sometimes necessary for the well being of others, do you not agree?

Yes. Is this when I mention that this is completely off topic and delving in semantics in order to sidetrack the thread, or are we over that silliness?

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Probably because it's never come up here. The topic of Al Queda terror has, and usually ends up with you and your cronies making excuses and saying "they're no worse than the US government".

Me and my cronies? I have cronies now? Cool. Do I get minions as well. Personally I've always wanted an Igor. You never said anything about the topic coming up, you said "silence = condoning". I'm sorry if your logic has faltered, but it does you no favours to then turn around and start making baseless accusations and lumping me in with my 'cronies'. I think my only assertions have been we should be striving to be better than them, and that "not quite as bad as terrorists" isn't my yard stick for an 'enlightened liberal democracy'. Maybe it is yours?

Unless you'd prefer some sort of more 'eye for an eye' response like "the subject of torture has come up before, and you and your cronies usually end up making excuses and saying "it's ok as long as we're torturing Muslims"".

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
I condone neither. I find torture inhumane but I find senseless slaughter of innocents inhumane as well. Depriving someone of their right to freedom is inhumane and yet it is sometimes necessary for the well being of others, do you not agree?
Yes. Is this when I mention that this is completely off topic and delving in semantics in order to sidetrack the thread, or are we over that silliness?

You could mention it. Being in the wrong has never stopped someone from posting in the past.

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... They don't want to do anything to fight terrorists. Heaven forbid we eavesdrop on someone calling a cave in Tora Bora, or a group moving money in and out of the First Infidels Will Die Bank. But what they really mean is gee won't I be fucked if someone hears me talking to my drug dealer.

The founders of this nation fought and died for the rights you're trying to throw away. You're cheering for exactly what the terrorists want. They want us to collapse into a police state and piss away the rest of our rights, money and good will chasing our tails. Why don't you just send them a check?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

GEEZER

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:37 AM

Waterboarding is bad. True.

Blowing up innocent folk in markets, schools, stores, and other non-military places is bad. True.

Assuming for the sake of argument that non-lethal waterboarding is equal to blowing up and killing innocent folk.

If a literal handful of people are waterboarded and tens of thousands of people are blown up, which is worse?

Should the one which is worse deserve more or less condemnation by the folks in RWED?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Should the one which is worse deserve more or less condemnation by the folks in RWED?

C'mon, it's not like we're cheering for sides here. I know that's what some of you keep trying to frame it as, but that's ridiculous. You seem to be saying that any criticism of our own government must be accompanied a more strenuous condemnation of our enemies. Do you really think that the people griping about waterboarding are "pro-terrorism"?

See, I can't control the actions of the terrorists. But, as a citizen, I have a responsibility to at least attempt to control the actions of my government, and to persuade my fellow citizens to do likewise. Big difference there Geez.

Besides, we post on these boards specifically about things that are contentious. It's the debate that makes the effort stimulating and worthwhile. What would be the point of stating the obvious over and over again? Yeah, terrorism's bad, m-kay? We get that. That's no reason why we should toss aside our standards for human dignity.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted in the 75 Percent of Al Qaeda in Iraq has been Destroyed! thread by AnthonyT:
Hello,

This recent argument smacks of dishonest debate tactics.

Q - "Do you support pedophiles? That is, do you support adults who rape little children?"

A - "Why, no. Of course not."

Q - "Do you support hiring an armed guard for each and every child in the world, to protect them from pedophiles?"

A - "Well... no. That doesn't seem practical."

Q - "It sounds like you support pedophiles, since you don't want to protect children. You support pedophiles, don't you?"

A - "No, of course not."

Q - "Then hire the armed guards."

A - "I don't think it's even possible to-"

Q - "Admit it. You're a pedophile, aren't you?"

A - "No! Jesus Christ, man."

Q - "A pedophile and a blasphemer! If you don't support protecting kids from pedophiles, then you are a pedophile supporter, or a pedophile yourself, which is just as bad."

A - "Look, just because I don't accept your choice of solutions doesn't mean-"

Q - "Pedophile!"

A - *Sigh* "I give up..."

Q - "He gave up on our children! Monster!"

--Anthony

ROFL! Lovely, just lovely. You have captured the essence of the framed debate that forms the basis of the neo-con apologists' attack on reason, their rationalization of any and all of their most beloved authoritarian tactics:

"If you don't agree with my choice of how to deal with the problem, you must not believe it's a problem, in fact, you must be causing the problem yourself!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Should the one which is worse deserve more or less condemnation by the folks in RWED?
C'mon, it's not like we're cheering for sides here. I know that's what some of you keep trying to frame it as, but that's ridiculous. You seem to be saying that any criticism of our own government must be accompanied a more strenuous condemnation of our enemies. Do you really think that the people griping about waterboarding are "pro-terrorism"?

I think they are often lacking perspective, which is what Geezer is talking about. It’s one thing to disagree with a policy, but much of this criticism is not thoughtful disagreement, it’s simply a naïve knee-jerk reaction to an emotional issue, and this leads to an imbalance in the discussion, where the real issue - terrorism - is set aside in favor of finding easier demons to slay, as it were. It’s never failed to astonish me the degree to which otherwise intelligent and thoughtful people seem to lose higher brain function at the mention of “George Bush.” None of us are pro-terrorism, strictly speaking, but with the lack of perspective that exists in many criticisms of US foreign policy concerning terrorism, I can't help but think that some of us might as well be.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIMONWHO

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:03 PM

Yes and our perspective is that we don't want to sell out our principles and become the bad guy ourselves while fighting the terrorist threat.

Not to mention the fact that such activities promote terrorism in of themselves - "You see what the decadent West does to their prisoners?"

Too many people think the world is like 24 - just torture enough bad guys and demonise the opposition and it'll all be okay. Sorry, you're wrong and I can say this with the perspective of a nation that was terrorised for 25 years and made the same mistakes America is making now.

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s one thing to disagree with a policy, but much of this criticism is not thoughtful disagreement, it’s simply a naïve knee-jerk reaction to an emotional issue, and this leads to an imbalance in the discussion, where the real issue - terrorism - is set aside in favor of finding easier demons to slay, as it were.

"Knee-jerk" reactions are indeed the problem here. Knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of US policy, for example, blinds us to the fact that our response to terrorism IS the real issue. It's the whole point of terrorism. They can't hope to do us any lasting damage through legitimate means so they provoke us into fits of fear and rage, and then sit back and watch us come unraveled.

Ever wonder why they haven't made any serious attempt to hit us again? It's because there's no need. We're following the script to the letter. When we do finally regain our sanity, and chart a more sober course, we'll likely see another attack. At which point folks like you will crank up the emergency sirens (we'll likely go to full-blown martial law next time around) and our downfall will continue on schedule.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... They don't want to do anything to fight terrorists. Heaven forbid we eavesdrop on someone calling a cave in Tora Bora, or a group moving money in and out of the First Infidels Will Die Bank. But what they really mean is gee won't I be fucked if someone hears me talking to my drug dealer.

The founders of this nation fought and died for the rights you're trying to throw away. You're cheering for exactly what the terrorists want. They want us to collapse into a police state and piss away the rest of our rights, money and good will chasing our tails. Why don't you just send them a check?
SergeantX

I really don't know what you're talking about. Sounds like hyperbolized paranoia to me. Me, my family, my friends, co-workers, everyone I know...no one has ever been interfered with by the Govt. in any way related to this topic. I guess if you read enough conspiracy and hatred of the Govt. propaganda, one might see things as you do...that everybody & everything is out to get you. You seem to think you have impenatrable privacy righs in America. You don't. From the minute you're born, the big, bad Govt. knows your name and SS number. They know where you live, taxes you pay, school records, and can access credit recports etc. to find out what you do with your money. And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Fair enuf....but my ILK doesn't kill people. Your tireless sympathy for terrorist's rights will get all of us killed...but your ILK doesn't care...right? You're suicidal in your beliefs...right? As long as you die not having transgressed against our enemies, or given up one iota of your so-called privacy, you'll be satisfied enough in that.

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Your tireless sympathy for terrorist's rights will get all of us killed...but your ILK doesn't care...right? You're suicidal in your beliefs...right? As long as you die not having transgressed against our enemies, you'll be satisfied enough in that.

That argument? Again? Listen, try and rub a couple of neurons together. It's not the terrorist's rights I'm worried about. As far as I'm concerned, once you've determined someone is a terrorist, do whatever you like with them. But these programs that satiate your fear are attacks on everyone's rights. You can't just target the terrorists. See, they don't exactly wear uniforms.

We can do as you suggest, and give in to the panic and fear that is terrorism's goal. We are doing it, sadly. But people are starting to wake up. It remains to be seen whether it will be soon enough to regain what we've lost.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:36 PM

Who has given in to panic and fear? ...certainly not I !!...I never even think about, but you are obsessing about something that has not and will not ever affect you. Relax & live. Let the people who either get paid or have volunteered deal with terrorists. Fortunately, you & I don't have to. If my small contribution to the effort is not going paranoid and ballistic at the thought of a Govt agent checking my library selections, then I'm proud to have helped my country.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Not to mention the fact that such activities promote terrorism in of themselves - "You see what the decadent West does to their prisoners?"

And this is where the perspective needs to come into play, because it is not that the US uses torture or not that is the promoting factor for terrorism but rather it’s that you complain about it. Or more importantly that the media broadcasts the criticism of American policy on torture and often quotes people saying derisive inaccurate things about the US concerning torture. People listen on the news or they read a internet forum and they hear SergeantX saying that America is the enemy. And it occurs to them, that maybe Bin Laden’s right. It is not that torture is or isn’t practiced by the US that is the problem you’re referencing here. You’re talking about people who often live in countries where real torture is routinely practiced. If the issue of torture was discussed with a degree of perspective, instead of these knee-jerk emotional reactions, then it wouldn’t be much of a promoting factor at all.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Ever wonder why they haven't made any serious attempt to hit us again?

Have you? Evidently not. If we get attacked, it’s because we provoked it. If we don’t get attacked, it’s be cause we're playing right into the hands of the terrorists.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

And you equate people who don't share your America-is-always-wrong ideology with terrorists regardless of whether they actually employ terrorism or have any propensity to kill at all, much less kill indiscriminately.

In your mind, you've already decided the only real enemy is the Great Satan.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
"Knee-jerk" reactions are indeed the problem here. Knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of US policy, for example, blinds us to the fact that our response to terrorism IS the real issue. It's the whole point of terrorism. They can't hope to do us any lasting damage through legitimate means so they provoke us into fits of fear and rage, and then sit back and watch us come unraveled.

What do you consider lasting damage? What kind of loss of life or property would make a lasting impression on you?

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Ever wonder why they haven't made any serious attempt to hit us again? It's because there's no need. We're following the script to the letter.

That could be.
Perhaps further attacks have been prevented by aggressive interrogation tactics.
Perhaps further attacks have been prevented by most of the terrorists being across the ocean.
All any of us can do is speculate and go with the scenario that best fits our way of seeing the world.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
When we do finally regain our sanity, and chart a more sober course, we'll likely see another attack. At which point folks like you will crank up the emergency sirens (we'll likely go to full-blown martial law next time around) and our downfall will continue on schedule.

And how would you handle further terrorist attacks should they come. Not trying to be a 'neo-con apologist' or derail the discussion, just curious. Are you a part of the do nothing camp? You know, show the terrorists their puny attacks mean nothing and perhaps they will give up the jihad. Do you think some security measures are needed post 9/11? which do you find necessary and which do you find needlessly obtrusive? You are obviously not in the one innocent victim is too many therefore all means necessary are used in the pursuit of terrorists camp.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

And how would you handle further terrorist attacks should they come. Not trying to be a 'neo-con apologist' or derail the discussion, just curious. Are you a part of the do nothing camp?

Well, just speaking for myself, I want two things done:
Let's LISTEN to the guys and gals that do the actual fieldwork more (that could have PREVENTED 9-11), and let's focus on KILLING Bin Laden already, okay, please????
We can be effective without being paranoid.
Or don't any conservatives hold with that?

Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
You could mention it. Being in the wrong has never stopped someone from posting in the past.

Neither has it stopped people being baselessly argumentative and baiting, it would seem.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In your mind, you've already decided the only real enemy is the Great Satan.

If by "Great Satan" you mean the cadre of morons who can't seem to understand what makes our country worth fighting for in the first place, yeah, I have.

The thing is, these end runs around constitutional protections affect everyone, not just the terrorists. You might not care about your rights to privacy or due process or freedom of association. etc, etc, but I do.

Quote:
your America-is-always-wrong ideology

And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

Grays are uncomfortable Sarge, and folks like the identifiability of blacks and whites, so when you or I criticize the acts of rogue as*wipes attempting to dissolve parts of our Constitution to fight terrorism (or gain political & economic power, more like) they MUST see us as against our country- otherwise they must weigh the facts, and do some real thinking, and they can't have that, can they?

A co-worker of mine says his uncle came back from Iraq, he is an officer, but his assigned duty for a year was to drive civilian oil trucks from one side of the country to the other. So that proves this war isn't about oil- it's about test-drives...he's a funny guy he is.

Oh well, time to read more in my 'little Red book' I guess

Like John McClane, I love America Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
The thing is, these end runs around constitutional protections affect everyone, not just the terrorists. You might not care about your rights to privacy or due process or freedom of association. etc, etc, but I do.

I care about a lot things. I just put it in perspective, instead of demanding it be viewed in absolutes, and accusing people of being the enemy if they don‘t see things my way.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

That’s rich. This from the guy who just accused people who disagree with him on policy as being as much enemy as terrorists we’re at war with. And actually I didn’t say you hate America, did I? That’s something you came up with. What I said is you think the US is always wrong, which does seem to be the case.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:12 AM

"And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could."

Seconded.

I was gonna say that, and be a lot less polite about it, but since Sarge beat me to the punch here, I will leave it at that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it