Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Friday, November 9, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 13706
PAGE 10 of 21
You know Au, initially I took what you said head on, but I realised, there really is no point while you're being this unreasonable. You've stopped merely Strawmaning my argument, and moved on to outright lying. When the accusations you make about what I'm saying not only don't follow from my words, but are the complete antithesis of my stated opinion, I can only assume you are too emotionally invested in the lie to listen to reason.
Ron Paul isn't the issue, Muslims aren't really the issue, fear is the issue. For the first time in your life there's a group of people who hate you and want to kill you, not invade or go to war, kill you. Not only that, but to make matters worse, they're invisible to boot. No big national target for us to watch. So you're afraid, deeply afraid of the terrorists, and to protect that fear you lash out at anyone who doesn't share it. Its not YOU that's afraid, oh no, it is I. I'm so afraid I can't stand up to the international Muslim like you can, I have appease him and cower away like an abused dog, hoping to be spared.
But I'm not afraid Au, when the bomb went off in Aldgate East station, I was pulling into Monument, 2 stops down. In a very real sense, it could have been me. But do you know what I did this morning? I got on a tube, and went to work. Do you know what I'll do tonight? I'll get on a tube and go home.
I'm not a coward Au, no matter how much more comfortable it makes you to portray me as one. It's not that I fear the international Muslim so much I wish to appease him, its that I recognise 'he' doesn't exist, and I stopped fearing the bogey man a long time ago.
As the dude said "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the darkside". As true today as it was a long time ago galaxy far far away...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Ditto Citizen.
Auraptor:
Quote:Okay, I agree with Citizen. Please re-read his post carefully. (Also Fletch2's and Frem's. When several people with wildly different outlooks all tell you the same thing, it's time to pay attention.) I think so are so fearful that you've become mesmerized by it, but I'm going to try to take one last whack at rationality.
Doing something about those who are murdering innocent civilians isn't letting fear rule or way of life. When folks have cancer, you find it, cut it out, and then let the healing take place. Too many are willing to ignore the cancer, and are hoping it will go away.
Over the past six decades or so the United States has prolly been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other entity, all in the name of "anticommunism". We've cozied up to and brought to power all kinds of nasty tyrants INCLUDING the Shah of Iran, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein, knowing full well what they were doing to "their people". Aside from the observation that fear makes people do stupid things like support the Taliban, what would you say about our "religion" of anticommunism which has NOT lead to democracy in most of the affected countries?
You say that you want to "do something" about those who are murdering innocent civilians? Well and good, but you might want to take a rational view of the world: put every organization on the weigh scales and see who really IS the biggest offender, and start with them.
BTW_ I'll repeat what I've said many times before: 9-11 didn't frighten me. Why? Because I was expecting it. I acknowledge that there are people "out there" who hate us with the white-hot hatred that only irrationality and religion can create. But you do not fight the irrational by being yourselves irrational. You have to appeal to the remaining people who have yet to be swayed, and you DON'T do that by rampaging through their world, creating chaos and death and poverty everywhere you go, especially if they had nothing to do with the offense that set you off. We've got enough enemies. Why create more?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Here's the thing: if people who've joined a website because we share a love for something very human and real (Firefly, of course) can't talk to each other civilly, how in the world can we expect folks who've had centuries of strife to enter into any meaningful dialogue with each other? I mean, whatever happened to clean your own house? RWED is messy house. Lotta hot air. Lotta me-me-me-me-me-me and the blame is elsewhere and the problem is with someone else.
No, it's not just Rap, but he particularly gets to me, because he seems driven to top everyone's crassness. (Uh.. Rue, whose opinions I almost always agree with, is similar. And others...)
Now, I don't think anyone here is trolling; everyone is genuine in their passions and beliefs. Even more, I think we all share a general desire for peace and harmony in the world. But we can't even come close to getting along with each other, to disgreeing with respect and dignity. To saying - OK, I was just called a fucktard, but I'm just going to assume that the name-caller is a human being who, though wrong, means well in the end. So I think I'll try responding with humor, to see if I can diffuse the situation, cool it down, instead of escalating it.
Does anyone else see it like this? Does anyone think that the problem we can solve isn't in Washington, it isn't in the Middle East, it's here. It's us. We, who have common ground, can't have civil discourse without getting personal. This is a problem we have power over. Maybe, until we find a way to be decent here, there is no way we should expect other folks (who are just people, just like us) to stop shooting each other or cutting off women's privates or sending helpless millions through gas chambers. I mean, how big of a step is it from Hero laughing because a guy he doesn't like got tazed to rubbing his hands and cackling as a political prisoner he disagrees with is shot in the head? And how disturbing is it that he thinks it's perfectly natural and reasonable to feel gleeful over a person being physically brutalized?
Good luck, world peace. Won't ever happen, because the people who live in the world are the people on this website, who believe their opinions to be Basic Truths and can't disagree with any civility or respect. That's why RWED makes me sad. It's hypocracy run wild. Rap, Hero, Rue, 6string - all the folks who escalate and blame and think hostility is the answer to disagreement. I really don't want to join in this game, but you people are polluting my world, my beloved website. You make it an ugly place.
Maybe I'm wrong to single you out Rap. I just read your post and started wondering if you treat people in real life the way you treat people here. Made me wonder what is the root of this hostility. Are you at all happy? Does this anger serve you well? Does it help you get your way? Make friends? Does it solve any problems? Really?
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not an issue of allowing fear causing me to make irrational generalizations, but FACTS making accurate ones. Why can't you see this for what it truly is, instead of trying to wrap it up in a Politically Correct blankie, making it look far less senister than it really is ?
No I just refuse to see it as being more sinister than it really is. In Northern Ireland we saw Protestants and Catholics killing each other. There were executions, punishment beatings, indiscriminate acts of violence against each other's innocent populations. That did not lead me to conclude that every Christian on the planet was a homocidal nut job. I could go to a bar with an Irishman and get truely and completely drunk without fearing he was about to slit my throat.
It's not a defence mechanism it's rationalisation. Thousands of Americans die on the roads every year. If I lived in fear I would never drive again but I look at the facts, realise that as a percentage of all trips the fatal ones are a tiny minority and get in my car. The statistics inform me to be carefull not to stay home scared.
I was in the US on 9/11 I also caught one of the first cross country commercial flights once the flight restriction was lifted. The airport was empty and there were 14 of us on the plane from all classes. I was in London one week after the tube bombings and I used the Tube a lot (in fact more than I usually would because of having to travel around the closed sections.) I don't fear ghosts, especially when the chances of it happening to me are none existant.
Like I said, punish the guilty when you find them but don't fear them, that gives them a power over you far bigger than they deserve.
Quote:
I guess the Brits were living in fear when the buzz bombs were raining down on London, huh? Should have just turned the other cheek and moved on about their day, right ? Please, this 'giving in to fear' crap is EXACTLY what lead up to 10 yrs of bloody attacks by al Qaeda
They actually went about their lives while their government and it's allies successfully won a war in multiple fronts. That is the definition of what it is to be brave it's not about not being afraid, it's about being afraid but doing what you have to do anyway.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"So I think I'll try responding with humor, to see if I can diffuse the situation, cool it down, instead of escalating it.'
Been there, done that - for years. Got tired of it. Got tired of having to respond to repeated name-calling, mischaracterization, lying, foul-language, derailing, propaganda, hate-mogering, flame-baiting, goading - from the same people - as if they were real posts from confused but well-meant people.
They're not well-meant. Some people really are here to troll, whether foul-mouthed or not. Kaneman, Jongstraw, BDN, Hero, and Geezer for example. Some people are so irrational you can't have a rational discussion no matter how hard you try - Rap for example.
Maybe I need to get away to get my patience back with these 'people' - but really, I've pretty much had it with them.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Here's the thing: if people who've joined a website because we share a love for something very human and real (Firefly, of course) can't talk to each other civilly, how in the world can we expect folks who've had centuries of strife to enter into any meaningful dialogue with each other? I mean, whatever happened to clean your own house? RWED is messy house. Lotta hot air. Lotta me-me-me-me-me-me and the blame is elsewhere and the problem is with someone else.
No, it's not just Rap, but he particularly gets to me, because he seems driven to top everyone's crassness. (Uh.. Rue, whose opinions I almost always agree with, is similar. And others...)
Now, I don't think anyone here is trolling; everyone is genuine in their passions and beliefs. Even more, I think we all share a general desire for peace and harmony in the world. But we can't even come close to getting along with each other, to disgreeing with respect and dignity. To saying - OK, I was just called a fucktard, but I'm just going to assume that the name-caller is a human being who, though wrong, means well in the end. So I think I'll try responding with humor, to see if I can diffuse the situation, cool it down, instead of escalating it.
Does anyone else see it like this? Does anyone think that the problem we can solve isn't in Washington, it isn't in the Middle East, it's here. It's us. We, who have common ground, can't have civil discourse without getting personal. This is a problem we have power over. Maybe, until we find a way to be decent here, there is no way we should expect other folks (who are just people, just like us) to stop shooting each other or cutting off women's privates or sending helpless millions through gas chambers. I mean, how big of a step is it from Hero laughing because a guy he doesn't like got tazed to rubbing his hands and cackling as a political prisoner he disagrees with is shot in the head? And how disturbing is it that he thinks it's perfectly natural and reasonable to feel gleeful over a person being physically brutalized?
Good luck, world peace. Won't ever happen, because the people who live in the world are the people on this website, who believe their opinions to be Basic Truths and can't disagree with any civility or respect. That's why RWED makes me sad. It's hypocracy run wild. Rap, Hero, Rue, 6string - all the folks who escalate and blame and think hostility is the answer to disagreement. I really don't want to join in this game, but you people are polluting my world, my beloved website. You make it an ugly place.
Maybe I'm wrong to single you out Rap. I just read your post and started wondering if you treat people in real life the way you treat people here. Made me wonder what is the root of this hostility. Are you at all happy? Does this anger serve you well? Does it help you get your way? Make friends? Does it solve any problems? Really?
[glib]Do as I say not as I do?[/glib]
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
THANK YOU for proving me right about you, and in such a timely and contextual way.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It's all a problem of peeps seeing what they want/expect to see versus peeps seeing reality, IMO. And we all pitch back and forth through both states.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Does anyone else see it like this? Does anyone think that the problem we can solve isn't in Washington, it isn't in the Middle East, it's here. It's us. We, who have common ground, can't have civil discourse without getting personal.
But some are willing to look at facts and question their points of view. Others are "always right".
No, we'll never have world peace, as demonstrated right here. You're sadly correct, Mal4prez. It's actually why I've been more on the entertainment side these days. I'm not always right, and I have a lot to learn, but not from them that know they're always on the "right side" of an issue.
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
THANK YOU for proving me right about you, and in such a timely and contextual way.
Guess those rose tinted glasses are still doing the trick.
How can Mal call for 'grown-up' discussion while insinuating another Poster needs med's?
How can Mal call for less attacks while insinuating another Poster is a sociopath?
How can Mal call for understanding while stating all RW'ers are sullying 'HER' website?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
BiggusD
"How can Mal call for 'grown-up' discussion while insinuating another Poster needs med's?"
It's simple, really. When you find someone who often posts completely irrational and factually wrong views, and adheres to them no matter what, it's like dealing with - well - an irrational person. It doesn't lend itself to rational, thoughtful, adult discussion.
"How can Mal call for less attacks while insinuating another Poster is a sociopath?
And you're the person who thinks said sociopath "rubs" you the "right way". EEEwwe. But seriously, someone who says EVERY tasering is amusing in some way is clearly not a normal human.
"How can Mal call for understanding while stating all RW'ers are sullying 'HER' website?"
"ALL" RW'ers ? Now clearly you've gotten carried away with your rhetoric.
And still nothing bad to say about Hero and other real trolls. Way to go.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME