Why so many murders?
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Monday, April 13, 2026 04:37
VIEWED: 4147
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An argument that goes ugly isn't a murder, really.
I define murder as the purposeful slaying of a human being with intent and malice aforethought.
That lets out a lot of the cases mentioned, but it's not murder, as slaying without premeditation is generally considered manslaughter.
Murder is when you have intention to kill someone, means to do it, and act upon that intention - something that's very much more likely to happen if you KNOW your intended victim is unarmed... one of the reasons that many shootings occur on court property, the parking lot, or the steps, is that they know.
A- Where the victim is going to be.
B- That they will be unarmed.
Generally when a criminal assaults or confronts someone, it is because of either desperate need (a jonesing junkie will attack ANYONE) or because they perceive they can successfully victimize the target - and as self defense of ANY kind becomes more and more vilified, this makes it easier and easier for that victimization to occur.
Generally a murderers goal is to get close enough, successfully kill you, and then escape without harm or arrest - something a weapon in the possession of the potential victim greatly complicates.
Now, you wanna discuss social issues relative to gunfire, that's a different thing entire, but outright and intentional murder is directly affected by the intended victims perceived or real ability to forestall it.
That ring it a bit clearer ?
-F
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I thought there were 'degrees' of murder, where only one of the degrees was pre-meditated?
I might be wrong. Maybe watch too many courtroom dramas.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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No. You’re right. Federal Homicide code title18: section 1111 distinguishes two types of murder: first degree and second degree. Each state has its own laws about murder, but I think all or most also distinguish two types of murder as well.
Although I think Alabama does not distinguish between first and second degree murder, now that I think about it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
An argument that goes ugly isn't a murder, really.
I define murder as the purposeful slaying of a human being with intent and malice aforethought.
That ring it a bit clearer ?
-F
I see what you are saying, that was why I didn't include ugly arguments in my initial list. However, it is surprising how many argument related cases there are. The violent crime stat I gave includes things as diverse as carjackings, burglary and robbery and still doesn't get into the same ballpark.
I know you probably don't want to hear it because the whole underpinning of the gun lobby is that you use weapons for defence against violent crime but it does seem that some drunken ahole shooting you is far more common than the thief in the night or the mugger.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I suspect that my position on this is not going to well accepted by either side, and it’s largely speculation, but I think it explains the difference between the crime in the US and that in Europe.
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If you will indulge me an alternative explanation.
An American friend of mine said something last week that startled me. He said that many Americans live with an ongoing subconscious undercurrent of fear. Fear that they will get sick and not be able to afford healthcare, fear of losing their job, fear of being robbed, fear of not being able to compete.
I wonder if this isnt the dark side of social Darwinism? American society is extremely competative at almost every level, Americans are taught to compete with each other at an insanely early age. There is a morbid fear of losing and a society that sets relatively limited definitions of "success" most of which are unobtainable by the majority of citizens.
I wonder if that low level continual build up of stress doesnt occasionally find explosive release? Maybe that's why so many arguments turn violent. As Frem says this isn't premeditated, this is things getting way out of hand . Add to that relative ease in getting lethal weapons and things go bad very quickly.
By comparison there are fewer stresses in Europe, it's not nearly as competative a culture there is less stigma associated in not being a winner and the consequences of catastrophic loss are less profound.
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I'll be honest...
I'm a gun ownership advocate. I love going shooting in the desert. I enjoy the security I feel, knowing that a weapon is within easy reach that can equalize the differences between a criminal and myself.
Still, if I could press a magic button right now that would eliminate every firearm on the planet forever, I would. I'd really be perfectly content to strap a sword to my side and call it a day.
But since I can't make it so no one has firearms, I insist on the right to have one.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Ayep, very true - you are MUCH likely to face potential gunfire from a drunken, stoned, or just plain wacked out shithead than you are to face attempted murder.
I mentioned de-escalation, shadowdancing, and substantial defense tactics in another thread, and even if one doesn't carry some iron, it's still well-worth the knowing as it could save your life one day.
I'll also mention that the better trained someone is with a firearm, the LESS likely they are to draw and fire it, overall - which touches I guess on the whole "undercurrent of fear" mentioned above.
Our society here in the states thrives on it, makes a business on it, the government depends on it - they all want you scared, all the time - and for whatever reason, that Kool-Aid don't work on me, never did... everybody dies, it's just a matter of when and how, and the things they want me to be scared of are laughable threats in the face of real dangers, which are in truth very rare, or at least rare in that you'd never see em coming.
I guess having survived a near-fatal accident, and watching the entire medical establishment write me off as a lost cost who was gonna die anyway kinda poisoned my mind against that kinda fear - if it happens, it happens, but that bastard reaper is gonna hafta CATCH me first!
Social factors leading to gunfire are generally a lack of mutual respect, lack of de-escalation, and lack of training on behalf of the folks involved - having all three reduces the threat value to virtually nil, not to mention there's always running for your life, and most wackos are terrible shots.
I also think vilifying self-defense in any form has substantially contributed to the problem, because people without confidence in a situation because they have no training or proper means of defense enter a fear state, and then ANYTHING can happen... you just never know which way fear is gonna jump when you poke it.
A link for ya, Anthony, when you have the time.
http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=0
Online graphic novel, pretty good story in and of itself, but also proposing a society closer to what I would envision as ideal - not that I agree 100% with it, but I think you'd like it.
Anyhows, that's about all I can say on the topic, really.
Oh, yes, final note in this post, having had to get on and off the turpike repeatedly in Ohio - who's bright idea was it to make the rest stops "UNARMED VICTIMS HERE!" zones ?
(aka weapon-free zones)
Do they really think that stupid little SIGN is gonna stop a criminal ?
I took MY business elsewhere, thanks.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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I think what you are saying is very true. If you look at Switzerland you see a country where not only do they have more guns than the US they have far less gun crime. I believe that's because everyone there is trined in proper use and storage of the weapon and the discipline needed to use it. Guns dont kill people, impulsive aholes with guns kill people.
Unfortunately any suggestion of certification or licensing is rejected by the gun lobby, so the more ideal situation -- that people know and respect the weapon falls by the wayside.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I tend to think that some of the reason is that we have a relatively new and extremely diverse population, and that we haven't worn all the rough edges off yet, as they have in places where folk have lived thousands of years. I'll have to look into national murder rates in relation to settlement and diversity.
Did a little more poking at this proposition.
Looking here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap
ita
I see that countries with higher murder rates generally share one of two things.
1. They were colonized by Europeans within the past 500 years and have ethnicly diverse population. This would include the US.
2. They are parts of the former Soviet Union.
Countries with lower murder rates tend to have either been around longer, or have a great preponderence of European colonist descended population (Canada, Australia, NZ)
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:I think it’s more complex than either interpretation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if either was a contributor.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I wonder if that low level continual build up of stress doesnt occasionally find explosive release? Maybe that's why so many arguments turn violent. As Frem says this isn't premeditated, this is things getting way out of hand . Add to that relative ease in getting lethal weapons and things go bad very quickly.
I think geezer has touched on something though. One obvious thing that characterizes the American murder rate is that most of it comes from African-Americans, which make up a minority of the population. If you remove the 52% of murders committed by the 12.6% of the population, then the murder rate drops considerably. It doesn’t drop all the way down to the European average, but it does drop down to a high ballpark below Finland. So I think the diversity of the population is certainly a contributor.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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