Any Dune Readers Out There?

POSTED BY: milford
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 14:03
VIEWED: 5457
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MILFORD

Monday, September 10, 2007 7:01 PM

I've read all the Frank Herbert books, and enjoyed them immensely. Out of loyalty to the series, I also picked up the newer books (mostly prequels) from his son. They were OK, but not up to Frank's standards. However, the newest one has be a bit perplexed. Warning: spoilers ahead.

I just finished the newest book, Hunters of Dune, which is one of two supposedly final books in the series. Apparently his son found notes and outlines for the final Dune book written by his father before his death and used them to write this, and the soon to follow, text. However, I'm having trouble seeing Frank's vision in the book. In fact, it seems like his son is using the books to tell his own story, as they contain details and important components not from Frank's books, but from his own prequels.

Has anyone else read these? Have the same feelings?

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SISTER

Monday, September 10, 2007 8:01 PM

Hi...I've read Frank's stuff (LOVED)...and I believe one or two of his son's efforts. Have not yet read the one you're asking about, so sorry...but I agree 100 percent with you that the son's stuff didn't measure up...(as a matter of fact of the two I read...the first was okay...the second degenerated into so-so...therefore I've not actively sought out another...) I do appreciate your thoughts and if I do read the book I'll be back to share my ops as well.

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Monday, September 10, 2007 8:20 PM

Hello...I consider myself a Dune expert. Please allow me to submit my thoughts.

You are hitting a bullseye with your analysis. I and others I know have been confounded and saddened by Brian Herberts work. Starting with House Atredies in 1998 and coming forward through his books, one can tell that Brian is light years from his father's prowess. Frank possessed a magical quality in his storytelling. He didn't TELL you a story...he SHOWED you a story. There is a big difference. Brian on the other hand is a linear writter who just throws information up in your face, much like the various trash fantasy writters that have produced things these last 15-20 years. (David Eddings and Robert Jordan come to mind) Go back and read the stuff in House Atredies sometime and you just cringe....he tells...and re-tells...and re-re-tells you the same things. And then in the next installment (house Harkonnen) he's re-re-re telling you the things you already know and it's at that point that I became so mad I threw my book across my livingroom, allowing it to lie crumpled on the floor for 2 months before my wife gave it to a charity garage sale for a church.

I think Tycho over at Penny-arcade said it best in this posting from 2003. Read paragraph 1. Warning to those of you with kids, the comic from that day contains profanity....but this link itself is clean.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2003/10/15

The comic is here: (profanity warning)

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15

If you chance upon penny arcade's collected works in a bookstore and can locate the october 15 2003 comic entry, Tycho had more to say on it. "I picked up the Butlerian Jihad in an airport so I could have something to read during my plane flight home. I was halfway through when we landed whereupon I decided to leave it in the forward seat pocket....where you leave garbage."

I echo Tycho 100%. Brian is not his father. Frank was a master of the storytelling craft and Brian insults Frank with each word he writes. What a goram shame.

I've always said that the 4 greatest storytellers of my time have been Neil Gaiman, George RR Martin, Frank Herbert, and Joss Whedon. It makes me so sad to see Frank's memory tarnished by his son.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

MILFORD

Monday, September 10, 2007 8:39 PM

That's a big 10-4 on beign disappointed. I read the other works, and was planning on avoiding any others, but I thought with the help of his dad's outline he couldn't scrwe up too much, right?

Wrong. He's just not subtle enough. His dad had so many twists and turns and slow reveals in his work that when the time came you weren't sure you believed it or not. Brian, however, blatantly drops stuff in your lap. Every character says what needs to be said, every scene plays out like you think it will. I wanted to know what the end of the story would be, but I didn't realize I'd have to muddle through this. Ick.

I probably wouldn't be as critical if I hadn't just finished Spook Country, William Gibson's latest. That guy is smokin awesome. I'd add him to your list and be done with it.

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Customizeable handmade baby gifts personalized by my wife! Check them out at www.baby-bobo.com. All proceeds go towards international adoption.

Leaning into the wind that used to carry me-Stavesacre

NBZ

Monday, September 10, 2007 9:18 PM

If you were disappointed, read my reply from a different forum:

Select to view spoiler:

GAAAAAAAH!

It's the Matrix Revolutions all over again!

Why the "£$%"£$%$%^ E£$^£^ £$^ £^ did the author decide to go down the pacifism route?

EDIT - thinking of Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions (I subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the Wachowski's did not write the original - but stole the script.)- there is much overlap. The Architect could be Omnius. The oracle Erasmus. Agent Smith replaced by the face dancers. Neo, Trinity, Morpheus replaced by Paul, Cheni, Duncan. And much much more.

It is just not the subtlety. The son mentioned how his father had destroyed Dune in between chapters - you never saw it, and that he would never do that. How true.

Another major problem was the lack of urgency. "Last stand?" There's (literally) a million planets to go! (the old kingdom was described as such I think. "Emperor of a billion worlds" was the title, but it was closer to a million... as mentioned by Prince Shaddam in one of the prequels...)

The ending was a little too perfect too.

The journey to the end? appalling. inconsistent too. They could kill the worms of Arrakis, but it was impossible on that new one? (just a single example...)

For me the whole Dune universe was built on a mystery. What is Dune Where did it come from? How did it get there. After 13 books, it still has not been answered. Worse, it was more or less ignored after the first two!

(I do not like the Dune universe. I do not buy that family feuds can take centuries, let alone millenia. The robots lacked robotic thought... and the stories are about super people instead of normal people.)

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Monday, September 10, 2007 9:45 PM

I never noticed the parallels twixt Dune and the Matrix. Wow. How very apt.

I recall watching the commentary for Objects in Space and Joss references Frank Herbert as one of many artists that inspired that episode. I consider OIS to be the very best Firefly episode and in the greater world of Sci-Fi, perhaps one of the best episodes of all time. I therefore tend to watch the commentary for OIS a lot. Joss has said that it was Frank that inspired the "I am the Ship" lines River delivers. We know it isn't possible that she could become the ship. But as the episode continues we start to wonder...then right at the moment we (and Early) suspend our disbelief to accept the possibility that she could very well have become the ship....NOPE she's in Early's vessel. But it's that magical moment of belief suspension that makes OIS so wonderful. And you can thank Frank Herbert for it.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

MIRAMEL

Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:54 AM

i haven't read all of the dune books, but heres my 2c from what i have read:

the first one, the originol dune, was amazing. AFTER that, way downhill. i read the two books after it, and then gave up in disgust. i thought the first one was great as a stand alone story, but when you try to expand on it, it just doesn't work. (yeah, i'm aware thats not such a popular opinion).
as for what his son wrote... well, they're JUST barely passable SF, but attaching the name 'dune' to them is laughable. Also, i felt like they couldn't decide weather they wanted to be plot-driven or character-driven; the plot wasn't really interesting to be plot-driven (also, took too long), but we didn't really like any of the characters that much. problematic.

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98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
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Fear is the Mind Killer
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MILFORD

Tuesday, September 11, 2007 12:53 PM

Regarding the Wachowski's script theft: They certainly did steal it, most certainly from William Gibson, and most certainly from his book Neuromancer.

I like to imagine a world where there are no crappy sequels like Revolutions and Reloaded. Revolutions, in my humble opinion, is one of the worst movies of all time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Customizeable handmade baby gifts personalized by my wife! Check them out at www.baby-bobo.com. All proceeds go towards international adoption.

Leaning into the wind that used to carry me-Stavesacre

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
Revolutions, in my humble opinion, is one of the worst movies of all time.

I like to think the worst movie of all time is Highlander 2. But I'm willing stick Revolutions down there with it.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:13 PM

Read 'Dune' at an early age and was totally blown away by it. Never got on with any of the later books, but that first one just has the vision and power.

I have provoked a row before now with this thought, but I know Joss is a Herbert fan. Did anyone else instantly think 'Bene Gesserit' about the Companions?

(BTW, other Herbert influences? Read an early Pratchett, 'Dark Side of the Sun'. Serious Dune meets the Gowachin...)

Gotta go with the love for Gibson, too. Never read G Martin, but am devoted to Gaiman.

The Matrix and sequels poached equally from Herbert and Gibson, with a good helping of anime in there, too. I feel very strongly that folk should be content with one perfect thing, and not try and milk it for merchandising or sequels *coughStargatecough* The Matrix on its own would have been a great and groundbreaking entertainment. Instead, it became a flabby, overblown cod-mythology epic.

PS on the topic of cod mythology - any Lovecraft afficionados out there?

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