All you righties can toast to the Iraq War success. Oh...no you can't.
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2026 18:21
VIEWED: 7463
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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Before: not able to kill with impugnity. After: able to kill with impugnity. So while you may be right that they are responsible for their acts of killing, we are certainly responsible for our creating conditions that made that a live option.
That was true over three years ago during the initial campaign but what about now?
Well, as far as this goes, we're still responsible for creating those circumstances.
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Is it not reasonable to expect the Iraqis to at least start to rectify some of the conditions which allow these people the freedom to act? It's much easier to blame the Americans instead of rolling up their sleeves and begining to enact meaningful change themselves.
Yeah, I think you're right here. I doesn't make sense to me that they blame us when they could be standing up and taking charge of their own country. But then I also think that "taking charge of their own country" isn't even a conceptual category they have. Before us it was Hussein, before him (ignoring about 15 coups) it was a king, before that it was the colonial Brits, before that, well, I'm not really sure. Point is, I can't see where they've ever had the notion that as a people they're responsible for themselves. And without that idea, it's going to be hard to get the democratic project going over there.
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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
So we each bear 100% responsibility for the things that we do, and no one else can be blamed for the things that a free individual does? OK, you could be right about that. If that's the case, the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act.
This seems somewhat akin to blaming the carmaker because the driver drove too fast for conditions, lost control, and crashed.
Also, by your "the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act." theory, the U.S. bears total responsibility for every crime committed in the U.S. since the U.S. provides us all with the freedom to act.
Individuals do have primary, if probably not 100%, responsibility for their actions.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
*Edited to reduce sarcasm.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This seems somewhat akin to blaming the carmaker because the driver drove too fast for conditions, lost control, and crashed.
Well, interestingly, there are situations (although probably not the one you gave) in which we would blame the car manufacturer. If, for instance, the car manufacturer knew that the brakes on a particular vehicle were prone to failure and yet allowed the car to ship anyway, then it would seem that if someone dies because the brakes failed the manufacturer bears at least some responsibility, because they knowingly shipped a car with dodgy brakes (even if they weren't the ones driving). If a toy manufacturer ships a toy that it knows carries the risk of overheating and causing house fires, then we think that manufacturer bears some responsibility (even if they weren't the ones that put the toy next to the curtains). My point is, your account of responsibility seems somewhat simplistic.
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Also, by your "the U.S. bears 100% responsibility for creating the conditions in which these people have the freedom to act." theory, the U.S. bears total responsibility for every crime committed in the U.S. since the U.S. provides us all with the freedom to act.
Your ability to miss the point astounds me. I specifically mentioned this sort of thing in my post, and said that criminals alone bear responsibility for their actions. But suppose that there is a violent sex offender who rapes and then kills his victims. Suppose that he is caught and locked up in prison. But one night, a certain prison guard falls asleep on his shift and neglects to lock the rapist's cell. The rapist, being a clever fellow, escapes from prison and commits a bunch more crimes before he's recaught. Now, are we going to try the guard for the rape and murder the rapist commits after his escape? Heck, no. But we have the sense that the guard has done something wrong. Over and above his negligence, we think that he's responsible for the prisoner's being loose again. He might not be the one committing the crime, but when considering the condition prisoner-on-the-loose, it seems pretty the guard bears responsibility for having actualized that condition. So no, I'm not holding the U.S. responsible for the sectarian violence happening in Iraq. But there is the condition of authority-vacuum in Iraq, and I think that we bear responsibility for having created that condition. And just like we get mad at the guard who allowed the rapist to escape, I can understand why people are upset with the U.S. for creating conditions conducive to sectarian violence.
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Individuals do have primary, if probably not 100%, responsibility for their actions.
Again, as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not disputing that. I'm merely saying that the just like the insurgents, terrorists, death squads and Baathists are responsible for their actions, the U.S. is responsible for its own actions. I think that we can agree on that much, because saying that is no more than what you've been saying this whole time: people are responsible for their actions. The point that I'm making--that you keep trying to dodge around--is that where before there was relative calm and stability in Iraq (no death squads, no suicide bombings, etc), now there's violence and instability. The conditions have changed, and I think it's legitimate to ask what role the U.S. invasion had on those conditions.
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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Quote:Causal, why do you hate America?
Originally posted by Causal:
The conditions have changed, and I think it's legitimate to ask what role the U.S. invasion had on those conditions.
(Just thought I'd ask before Geezer did
)Missing the point is what he does, darlin' Chrisisall
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Quote:Lol. Since we're at it:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Causal, why do you hate America?
Causal, why do you hate the troops? And since you're a troop, I guess that means: why do you hate yourself?
Plagiarist KhyronisallThe best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
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Quote:Khyron, I think we're missing the point.
Originally posted by Khyron:
why do you hate yourself?
Let's join Geezer for some self-flagelation.
Causal's writing is clear and precise; how can anyone miss his points? I think The Geez misses 'em on purpose, to argue.
Mr Pointy Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Khyron, I think we're missing the point.
Let's join Geezer for some self-flagelation.
All right, you two--don't make me have to say something coherent!
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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Somebody looking for on argument here on FFF.net!? Mr Isall, surely you jest!
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
All right, you two--don't make me have to say something coherent!
isallNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:No, I'm not...wanna make something out of it???
Originally posted by Khyron:
Somebody looking for on argument here on FFF.net!? Mr Isall, surely you jest!
Goofy Chrisisall
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