Laughing at Saddam
POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Monday, January 5, 2026 21:57
VIEWED: 10444
PAGE 15 of 17
That's about as nasty as it's going to get. Not a big fan of flame wars.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Oh, I find that hard to believe. Anyone who can come up with that kind of response is a natural! 
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I just say it like it is. I'm not looking for a verbal shoot fight. If there is no point in discussing this any further, I find no great pleasure in throwing shit at one another. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:No. You say it like you want it to be or at most like you see it, but certainly not like it is. If you were saying it like it is, you wouldn’t have made the mistake of assuming that Iraq is the only secular regime in the Middle East. And whatever point there might have been to this discussion, you threw out several posts ago in favor of childish ridicule, so I don’t see any reason to take you seriously now, do you? I’m not here to tutor you on Mideast politics, and I’m not going to discuss the issue with you anymore, so that really only leaves pointless banter.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I just say it like it is. I'm not looking for a verbal shoot fight. If there is no point in discussing this any further, I find no great pleasure in throwing shit at one another.
Which is really all this thread is good for anyway, it’s pretty much all over the board, from Crow’s demise to your crazy assumptions about Iraq.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The reason to think of him as human - a despicable, hateful human - isn't for his sake, it's for yours. To not feel empathy at the death of another is to be a reduced human being and to bring yourself closer to being Hussein.
I'm trying to be very careful of what I say, because I think there's a point in here somewhere, and I don't want to move back to the lower level of discourse.
I agree that one human feeling empathy for the death of another human is one of the best things about humanity. Even at the death of someone we know nothing about, reported on the news, we default towards empathy. Even when a suicide bomber blows up a bunch of people, we may find just a glimmer of empathy for the bomber, because he thought he was doing the right thing for his people, or religion, or whatever, no matter how misguided we think he was.
I consider empathy over the death of a human a learned behavior, an understanding that under other circumstances that could be me; and that understanding is a benefit to the species as a whole. It's what keeps us from just bopping strangers on the head.
I guess where we differ is that I think a person can consciously, by his actions, opt out of this system. He can break the ties of empathy and humanity which should connect him to all other people. he can kill humans, any humans, with no empathy, with no more compunction than killing roaches.
This person I cannot empathize with. I can't say "There but for the grace of (something) go I." There is no connection between us, no shared humanity. That's the way I think of Hussein.
I'd really like to have a discussion about this, rather than an argument. On the infrequent occasions when we do put down the cudgels and actually share information, I always get something out of it.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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On empathy in general - certain types comes fairly naturally at certain ages. Children cry when they see other children crying ... because they understand what it means to cry.
Most people feel immortal until about 30 years old. Even when you see death it's an abstraction, not something you feel inside. (Though it's something you'll have to deal with later.)
At a certain point death becomes personal. It's the basic biological fact of an individual dying that we can understand.
That is the empathy due Hussein, the kind you shouldn't disavow because, if you do, you put your humanity in peril.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
On empathy in general - certain types comes fairly naturally at certain ages. Children cry when they see other children crying ... because they understand what it means to cry.
Most people feel immortal until about 30 years old. Even when you see death it's an abstraction, not something you feel inside. (Though it's something you'll have to deal with later.)
At a certain point death becomes personal. It's the basic biological fact of an individual dying that we can understand.
That is the empathy due Hussein, the kind you shouldn't disavow because, if you do, you put your humanity in peril.
Is everyone due the same empathy at their death? Besides the biological fact that we all die, does the way in which we've lived our life affect the amount of empathy we're due? Should the empathy we may feel at a person's death be completely divorced from how we consider them as a person?
Not a trick question, I really am interested in your response.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:So Ant's get to decide, by committee, what Ant behaviour is. So what is up with all these biologists studying ants? They should just ask them, surely?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Ah. This, then, is the root of our disagreement. I think humans, by consensus, do get to decide what human behavior is.
And Psychologists, what a rip, all they need to do is ask you, you've got it all worked out.
Quote:You take a joke, and throw a tantrum and start bitching about spelling, the lowest form of discourse on the net, including flame wars.
No. I just know how to use Google. You should try it some time. And perhaps learn how "Marx" is spelled in relation to Chico, Harpo, Groucho, Gummo, and Zeppo.
Good job, well done you.
Perhaps I could say ' behavior ' is spelt behaviour...
Quote:Actually, if you read my post, you know like you were admonishing me for not doing even though I did, you'd realise I didn't give an answer in the philosophical ground that you are talking about, I gave what science had too say on the matter, and asked that without a philosophical definite maybe it would be better to rely on the scientific answer we do have. From a scientific standpoint there is little difference between you and Saddam, you seem unable to grasp this concept, I merely said that wasn't my fault.
Finally, an answer (in a roundabout way). You consider Saddam as human as you because he has the same genetics. See, that wasn't hard, was it?
You have merely said "I say Human behaviour is X, Saddam doesn't show X, Saddam isn't human", that's not an argument, at all, Saddam isn't Human because Geezer says so just doesn't cut the mustard, sorry. Try again, or make a fatuous remark, perhaps you could take a cue from AURaptor and discuss my sexuality, that's sure to swing the whole thing in your favour
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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That I think is the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy says - I feel sorry for you. Empathy says - I feel with you. Sympathy is earned based on the characteristics of the recipient, empathy is given based on the characteristics of the empathizer.
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
On empathy in general - certain types comes fairly naturally at certain ages. Children cry when they see other children crying ... because they understand what it means to cry.
Most people feel immortal until about 30 years old. Even when you see death it's an abstraction, not something you feel inside. (Though it's something you'll have to deal with later.)
At a certain point death becomes personal. It's the basic biological fact of an individual dying that we can understand.
That is the empathy due Hussein, the kind you shouldn't disavow because, if you do, you put your humanity in peril.
Is everyone due the same empathy at their death? Besides the biological fact that we all die, does the way in which we've lived our life affect the amount of empathy we're due? Should the empathy we may feel at a person's death be completely divorced from how we consider them as a person?
Not a trick question, I really am interested in your response.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
So Ant's get to decide, by committee, what Ant behaviour is. So what is up with all these biologists studying ants? They should just ask them, surely?
Ants get to do what's hard-wired into them by evolution and their genetics. They don't change, aside from gradual evolution, and don't form committees (which may or may not be a good thing). If you think human beings operate only on the same instinctual level as ants, we have a contridiction, because if we act only on instinct, you wouldn't be thinking about it.
If we humans get to step outside our gradual advance by evolution alone by actively developing new technologies, from fire to computers, and new social structures, from tribes to nations, why can't we also develop a concept of what it is to be human? Isn't that what law and religion, in their best expressions, try to do?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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