Drug war
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 23:52
VIEWED: 6976
PAGE 5 of 8
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Personally, I feel pretty sure that virtually all the other issues we discuss are minor compared with this one, and that, to quote jurasic park, the only one I've got on my side is the bloodsucking lawyer. No offense.
..bloodsucking lawyer. I love that line!
No worries.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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DT,
You are not the only one.
Standing on the tracks, watching the train come down ...
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sgt. X.
The first step is to admit you have a problem...
Surely, Sgt. X., you have to realize this, even if you're in intense denial re: your own habit. What is it? Marijuana?...
If you weren't using yourself, you'd see this clearly....
Now you're just making me giggle. I haven't smoked pot in over a year. And I rarely drink. But I've done them both before and plan to do them again. And I don't want to be skulking around in back alleys dealing with gangsters because insecure, misguided morons are waging war on ghosts.
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You're free to do your own thing somewhere else, but not in our homes with our kids bringing your dealers and addicts and their AK47s and everything. No way, no gorram way. Not on my boat.
Listen to yourself. Dealers and addicts with AK47s are the result of anti-drug paranoia and the subsequent legislation, not my freedom to use. I've never suggested I should be allowed to come into your home with drugs and I fully support keeping them away from kids.
You're clearly looking for a scapegoat, and it seems you've found it. I guess it's easier than addressing the real problems of society.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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I'm interested, Dreamtrove, on why you choose to separate alcohol, tobacco & caffeine from the "real" recreational drugs. Is it because you don't hear about rival gangs killing each other over tobacco turf, or see folk being mugged by alcoholics looking for their next bottle of MD-20/20? Illegalize them, and I guarantee, you'll see a black market as corrupt as the trade in crack develop at warp factor 10.
On the subject of "Drug-related death", does anyone remember the "EX-POLICE" sketches on the original Saturday Night Live?
The basic scenario ran like this: Some person, or group of persons, would be indulging in a consensual activity, which might or might not be illegal -- (say smoking a joint) -- when suddenly Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray would break down the door, declare themselves to be "Ex-Police" -- ("We were dismissed from the department for excessive force--but that's not going to stop us!") They would then beat the offending citizens unmercifully, usually to death, whereupon they would shake their heads sadly, while announcing, "How tragic--yet another marijuana related death."
I included the above, not to make light of your concerns, but to make a serious point: most of the deaths attributed to the drug trade are actually the result of their illegal status. The reason people jest about the tragic situation your thread addresses is that, at this point, it's either laugh or cry--and we've already cried a river.
It isn't that I'm not taking the situation seriously--I am--but that, upon long and serious consideration, I have reached the conclusion that no program to reduce the drug problem will succeed unless it includes, as a cornerstone, some form of legalization. At the very least, it must incorporate a legal avenue for hardcore addicts to received their "fix" without having to deal with a black market. Eliminate the profit motive, and the impetus for cultivating new addicts--for hooking children--vanishes. After that, it's just a matter of waiting for Darwin's dues to be paid.
"Think of it as evolution in action" -- Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
(Edited to include further comment)
Just wanted to add, considering your above argumentum ad hominem against SergeantX, that I had thought better of you. What you said boils down to this: "You don't agree with me about drugs. Therefore, you must be a drug addict. And if you don't admit your problem, that constitutes proof that you have one."
I must come to the conclusion that you aren't really interested in finding a workable answer to America's drug problem, unless it agrees with your preconceived notions.
And that kind of thinking is the bedrock reason why the problem persists.
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Is it because you don't hear about rival gangs killing each other over tobacco turf
Ironically, thanks to lunatic attempts at prohibition-via-taxation, there's now been a couple incidents of EXACTLY that up here, which will only increase as smuggling and phony tax stamps become more and more profitable.
It's worth noting that such taxes are in part an attempt to force a certain morality on people (that being why they're oft referred to as "sin taxes") at the behest of a religion, breaching the wall of separation between church and state.
The Temperance movement, later to become prohibition was almost completely inspired and pushed by religion - in essence, a form of state-sponsored religion (when it became prohibition) in direct contravention of the constitution and the founding fathers ideals.
So you've got a trioka of piss-frem-off right there, senseless taxes, government religion, and subversion of free choice all in one.
As for addiction, there's been reams of stuff written on the common sense perspective of treating it as the purely medical issue that it is, rather than a legal one - worth your time to read up on it.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sgt. X.
If you weren't using yourself, you'd see this clearly. The rest of us are completely unable to do our own thing because your own thing is fucking it up.
How about this? I don't use any substances (not even caffeine) with the exception of alcohol, which I don't even keep in my own house (the only time I drink is beer with dinner at a restaraunt or socializing at a party, and that happens rarely), and I think you are off your nut on this one, DT.
I don't think Sarge has the problem here. I'm full-on in favor of the legalization of MJ, and a few other "soft" drugs. This notion that you have that every casual user is an addict waiting to create the Burger King Chainsaw Massacre is ludicrous. I know dozens of causual users, and I think every person I know over 21 but 3 or 4 are drinkers, and not once has it ever made me fear for my life or prevent me from "doing my own thing." I also think that if we fixed the root problems of poverty and education we'd cut down on most of the "hard" drug issues, like Crystal Meth or Crack.
IMO, and IANAP*, but I think you had a problem in your family or life with a drug abuser, and are trying to take your bad experience out on everyone who wants to get a buzz. You're the only one in this thread (well, I can't tell if Hero was serious or not) that took that position, Hell, I'm even agreeing with Auraptor this time (which might be more than the 5th time we've agreed, but certainly less than 10). Come back to the rational.
_____
*(I) (A)m (N)ot (A) (P)sychiatrist
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Sgt. X.
That was the dumbest analysis I think I've read on this forum outside of maybe Kaneman.
I understand the situation very very very very very very very very very very very very very very well. I think I understand a lot of the problems of society.
Scapegoat my ass.
Drugs make people crazy, that's why there are crazy people. They used to be people who used drugs and weren't crazy, and then they got crazier, and it happened to 100% of the users of hard drugs, and 0% of the non-users. Pretty straightforward stuff. A monkey could figure it out.
Not interested in arguing with your habit.
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I'm interested, Dreamtrove, on why you choose to separate alcohol, tobacco & caffeine from the "real" recreational drugs.
Because I'm a realist. They're harder to get rid of. Alocohol is even healthy in small amounts, yes, unlike mj.
Moreover, we know the long-term effects of all of these compounds. All drugs are not created equal. I actually have a priority of ones I'd like to get rid of.
I'm also substance free because it would not be in keeping with my religion, but I have known coffee drinkers and drinkers of occasional alcohol to not degenerate into psychotic episodes or suffer major memory loss, loss of mental acuity or other brain damage. Alcoholism, however, is much more like a drug problem. I think the simple rule of limiting alcohol intake would be a good one, but I don't know how to implement that.
I'm not here to argue "drugs are bad" I've lived a life, and have learned very well the pretty undeniable fact drugs are bad. Some young twit coming up with "drugs are good" as a counted argument isn't going to undo that experience. "drugs are good" is just a dumber position than "war is good", imho. I'm looking for solutions.
It's like an RTL thread I posted a while ago, clearly looking for other RTLers with their view, how far does rtl extend. Such a discussion isn't looking for the argument "abortion is good" and isn't going to argue it, because that's not item at the table. Similarly, a pro-choicer might post a thread like "what's the safest way to do abortion" is not going to want to argue with my "don't do it" attitude.
Go ahead, a thread is waiting to be created by Sgt. X. called "which drug is the best high." Have fun.
Anyway, I believe that the illegal alcohol traffic would turn bad, I don't think it would be so bad with caffeine.
The fact that hallucinogens impair logic is important to the situation. As one long term friend and addict told me "My first hit of crack has to be free, because I won't buy it, so they give it to me. My second hit I pay anything because I'm all f^
Not going to happen with your caffeine dependents.
I already knew Sgt. X. was an user because he defended mj in an earlier thread. The drug defends itself. It's pretty telltale. Maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm not dumb, and I call it as I see it. I don't put up with a lot of BS which is what I'm hearing basically.
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I must come to the conclusion that you aren't really interested in finding a workable answer to America's drug problem, unless it agrees with your preconceived notions.
What a load of unadulterated cr@p.
Frem,
I'm dealing with a common sense medical perspective. I am increasingly living in looney vegetable land, and I can in fact see what's right in front of my eyes. I'm not calling these guys gone because a moral perspective, I'm calling it because I can see it because it's in front of my eyes. You know perfectly well that a taoist is not a christian, and doesn't force their beliefs on others. We do, however, have the right to defend ourselves. The druggies don't see it because they're drugged, just like the bushies can't see that there's something wrong with bush while he's paying their bills in the military industrial complex or whatever. People tend not to see what's inconvenient for them to see.
7%,
Actually, we have a societal p
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
7%,
Actually, we have a societal problem here, where each kid becomes a loser and shoots themselves or someone else or becomes a total do nothing loser if they stay on it, after being introduced to drugs usually by city folk and it has happened about 150 times in succession pretty close to without exception.
Okay....so it's staying on any type of drug that makes one a loser? Because I thought at the beginning of your argument you were saying that just the act itself made one unable to become a success, a fact that 95% of the PoTUSA, multiple members of congress, many prominent businesspeople, et. al. would have to disagree with. Some people's brain chemistry can't handle substances - and that's an argument for banning it all? That's like saying 'since blind people shouldn't get behind the wheel, no one should be allowed to drive.'
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So, I'm the lone reactionary looney on the board, but everyone I know who isn't taking takes the same position I do.
I'm not taking, and I disagree with your position 110%. Maybe you should call it everyone sans one. Unless, your respose will be, well, since you don't agree, you must be a heroin-using junkie just lying to me anonymously on a message board, but I think you know better than that.
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It's a serious situation. We used to have a society. Now we have a trashcan. And there's no scapegoating going on here, me and everyone else here knows exactly what's causing it because there's only one thing that's changed and it shows up at the scene of the crime 100% of the time and nowhere else. Add it together, it all spells duh.
Last time I walked outside we still had a society.
I went to work yesterday, taught some kids grammar, joked in the faculty lounge, bitched about my congressmen, saw the idiot that sped past me get caught in a speedtrap on my way home, had dinner with the wife, went to the show. Not once was I accosted in the street by a wild-eyed marijuana user who just finished gunning down a busload of nuns in pursuit of a fix, and I talked to a lot of people yesterday.
What impacts the drug culture is poverty, education, and general hopelessness about life getting better. Help people get off the streets, give them an education, and show them that their children will have opportunities and I bet you will have the same number of drug users and one tenth the crime and 'societal degradation.'
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I'm not backing down, I'm not off my nut, I'm not nuts, stupid, misguided, or misinterpreting the situation. I'm calling the lot of you out on your buckets of BS. This is a problem, and I am looking for a solution, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I disagree that you aren't misinterpreting the situation. I think you are. I don't recall saying you were nuts (and if I did I meant it in a more sarcastic way, not a literal one), even though I stand by my assessment that you had a traumatic experience with a drug user you are taking out on the rest of us.
Seriously though, as someone who does not drink often, does no drugs (I don't even take cold medicine unless I'm dying), doesn't even drink caffeine - how do you figure that my disagreement with your post makes me 'part of the problem?' I've given what I think is the problem, what about that is BS?
Forget Sarge, forget Frem (no offense to you all - he's picking your argument apart as addicts defending your addiction, he can't do the same to me). Convince me, a non-drug user who interacts with today's youth, of your position if you can, because you haven't so far.
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What I'm saying basically is that we've got gorram reavers at my front door, and what I'm hearing is "let them in." I can't help but think that some of those voices are themselves, gorram reavers.
Are you from Missouri? Did someone set up a crystal meth lab in your backyard? Did a crackhead shoot your dog? What gives with you on this issue?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Forget Sarge, forget Frem (no offense to you all - he's picking your argument apart as addicts defending your addiction, he can't do the same to me). Convince me, a non-drug user who interacts with today's youth, of your position if you can, because you haven't so far.
Yes, and kindly convince the (until-now lurking) non-drug user youth, too.
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DT, I don't know what to say. You seem to be caught up in some kind of panic that's leading you into making unfounded personal accusations and hysterical overstatements that only weaken your position.
I've read some really keen insights from you in the past and in general I look forward to your posts, but you're just not making any sense on this one.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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