Affirmative Action
POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Thursday, November 9, 2006 23:36
VIEWED: 3834
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I know this will open up a very nasty barrel of worms, but I figure I'll ask anyway.
There was a proposal in my state to ban affirmative action, and based on the last poll results, it looks like it will pass. So in the interest of rational, intelligent discussion (emphasis on intelligent), I thought I would ask everyone's opinion on the subject.
I personally think that affirmative action detracts from true equality. However, since human beings are the ignorant creatures that they are, true equality is far beyond our reach. Which unfortunately makes affirmative action very necessary, and not just on a racial level.
So what say ye?
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Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I know this will open up a very nasty barrel of worms, but I figure I'll ask anyway.
There was a proposal in my state to ban affirmative action, and based on the last poll results, it looks like it will pass. So in the interest of rational, intelligent discussion (emphasis on intelligent), I thought I would ask everyone's opinion on the subject.
I personally think that affirmative action detracts from true equality. However, since human beings are the ignorant creatures that they are, true equality is far beyond our reach. Which unfortunately makes affirmative action very necessary, and not just on a racial level.
So what say ye?
*************************************************
"So long and goodnight."
I think affirmative action in its purest form would be a good thing. But humans are never pure.
I have seen some eff'd up stuff done in the name of affirmative action.
I think the person best for the job should get it. I don't care what color or sexual orientation or gender they are.
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Quote:
I think the person best for the job should get it. I don't care what color or sexual orientation or gender they are.
Yes, but the underlying reason behind AA is the fact that not everyone gets an even start. Some children are lucky enough to go to schools which actually supply textbooks that list all 50 states. Some children face prejudicial treatment, both indirect and institutionalized.
Like you, I am very cool with the "best person for the job" philosophy (AKA Darwinism), but if that leaves a big segment of the population out of the running, shouldn't that be addressed somehow? What do you say to a citizen who doesn't have a chance? Do you just write them off?
Yes, yes - I know that anyone (in theory) can succeed or fail, and there are always anecdotal stories that support this, but the larger numbers don't lie: certain ethnic and socioeconomic groups simply don't have the same opportunities as others.
I definitely think we should abolish AA, but I don't think the time has come yet.
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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I agree with FMF. AA seems to add nothing to a normal situation, and force integration in a position where the administrators are blatantly racist, which isn't going to produce good results.
But I think that something more than the free market is needed here, because we inherited this inequity. I'm not saying we have to fork over 40 acres and a mule, but some sort of economic balancing force, like aid to blacks who want to start businesses or something. I've known a couple of black people in the city who have tried to start companies, and it's very hard to generate capital. Recently there's some new capital, but it often comes with unpleasant gang connections. There are probably other programs that would help, if anyone has any ideas, but so far, what I've seen of affirmative action is that it feeds the racial tension.
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I think the United States was founded on the notion that over time, people will rationalize all of their preconceived mistakes. Sort of a self-righting country. I'm not entirely sure that this is realistic... to me it seems like the mob will always make itself irrational. However, giving people themselves the benefit of the doubt...
I think that privately run businesses and universities have the right to be run my sexists and bigots, and that those people should be allowed to reject anyone they want for whatever reason. Because, based on the self righting theory, people will eventually realize that it is wrong on their own, and evolve. Those that don't will be subject to the publics disfavor, lose business, and die out because of it. Is this how it would actually work? Maybe not, but that's how it was meant to. I really don't like the government having authority over privately owned institutions, no matter what good comes of it, the notion of the government involving itself that much goes against the very principal of private citizenship that this country was supposed to be made for. But of course, nearly everything else in modern America goes against it as well.
Government jobs are different. There should be no discrimination of any type. However, enforcing that is a difficult policy. Affirmative action in itself seems to fall short of this, and is actually just a different type of discrimination. By telling a minority of people that they are entitled to anything based on their race, gender, religion or anything else is dis-empowering them. Maybe there should be some kind of measure in place to ensure a lack of bias, but Affirmative Action should not be that measure. In the end, policies are just human thoughts and feelings on paper. You but a bigot in the right government position, and he'll make his opinions "policy". So no matter what you do, eventually, you just have to trust that the people will right themselves.
But more than that, you just have to trust them to screw up.
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I agree, Govt. jobs should probably have affirmative action. In such a situation, if there is a racist boss, then the minority employee can appeal to a higher boss, and have the bigot brought in line or removed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I think the United States was founded on the notion that over time, people will rationalize all of their preconceived mistakes. Sort of a self-righting country. I'm not entirely sure that this is realistic... to me it seems like the mob will always make itself irrational. However, giving people themselves the benefit of the doubt...
I think that privately run businesses and universities have the right to be run my sexists and bigots, and that those people should be allowed to reject anyone they want for whatever reason. Because, based on the self righting theory, people will eventually realize that it is wrong on their own, and evolve. Those that don't will be subject to the publics disfavor, lose business, and die out because of it. Is this how it would actually work? Maybe not, but that's how it was meant to. I really don't like the government having authority over privately owned institutions, no matter what good comes of it, the notion of the government involving itself that much goes against the very principal of private citizenship that this country was supposed to be made for. But of course, nearly everything else in modern America goes against it as well.
Government jobs are different. There should be no discrimination of any type. However, enforcing that is a difficult policy. Affirmative action in itself seems to fall short of this, and is actually just a different type of discrimination. By telling a minority of people that they are entitled to anything based on their race, gender, religion or anything else is dis-empowering them. Maybe there should be some kind of measure in place to ensure a lack of bias, but Affirmative Action should not be that measure. In the end, policies are just human thoughts and feelings on paper. You but a bigot in the right government position, and he'll make his opinions "policy". So no matter what you do, eventually, you just have to trust that the people will right themselves.
But more than that, you just have to trust them to screw up.
Yes, that's one of the keys. For example, the President recently has failed to let various airlines go bankrupt. The short-term damage is all he can see, not the long-term benefit.
I'm not as sure that the system is self-balancing, although I really love that concept. I think (simplistically) that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. It's why we can't allow unrestrained capitalism. The railroad and coal monopolies of the 1920's showed clearly the evils of this situation. This leads to vastly unequal economic opportunities, authoritarian government to keep the people from squawking, and eventual revolution, a very messy outcome that we should avoid at all costs.
Who knows what would really happen. It would be fascinating to turn business loose and see what happens. If we have no controls such as AA, shouldn't we also abandon other controls such as safe workplace laws, environmental protections, etc.? Wouldn't it be great if everything worked itself out? It would certainly be more efficient than what we have now.
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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Affirmative Action, I feel, is a bane on society as a whole. AA has made it so many privately owned business must fill a quota of minorities and women or face possible action being taken against them. This causes employers to hire based more on skin color and gender rather than ability. This hurts a company alot, and there's no argument against it.
Don't get me wrong, when AA was conceived, I think it was necessary. But has grown into a monster beyond it's original scope (very much like unions, welfare and social security) and control.
AA has outlived it's necessity, and I feel it's time to put it to bed.
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Great responses so far.
One thing I wanted to point out is that people often focus mostly on the racial aspect of affirmative action, and not necessarily how it affects areas other than business. Now, I'm not completely sure on this, but I believe that affirmative action (or the lack of it, rather) can affect things like a woman getting birth control from her pharmacist or the vacccine for cervical cancer becoming available to women. Once again, I'm not completely sure about this, but if this is a fact, it makes one think about the ramifications of banning AA (at least if you're a woman).
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Quote:Any minute now someone's going to call you a stupid socialist who doesn't understand what is really happening.
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
I'm not as sure that the system is self-balancing, although I really love that concept. I think (simplistically) that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. It's why we can't allow unrestrained capitalism. The railroad and coal monopolies of the 1920's showed clearly the evils of this situation. This leads to vastly unequal economic opportunities, authoritarian government to keep the people from squawking, and eventual revolution, a very messy outcome that we should avoid at all costs.
You see it's regulation that causes the problem, if there were no regulations, the companies wouldn't break them
.What do I think of AA? It's idiotic. Lets fight discrimination against this group by discriminating against another one? It's positive discrimination, which isn't a good thing, and in that vein Apartheid was positive discrimination toward Whites.
I really don't see how giving a Job to a black man because you need to fill your quota of 'racial minorities' over a white man who may be better qualified is any different to hiring a white man over a black man who may be better qualified because you're a racist.
Here's a radical idea, if, for instance, black people have access to a lower standard of education why don't we improve their standard of education. Or is that too much like hard work? Much easier to give out token gestures that don't really help anyone in the long term eh.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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