US troops call for Iraq pullout
POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 12:12
VIEWED: 6865
PAGE 3 of 5
First of all
Next,
my sister works at the va, she sees thousands of vets coming back from iraq.
The majority do not support a cut and run policy, but neither does a majority support bush. I get the feeling that a powell coup would be fine with them. They're certainly not happy with the present order. If that helps the democrats in the election, than sobeit.
But I'm sick of all this pandering political positioning that people do around elections, and while I'm at it, the rest of the time as well. Let's be honest about the situation. Rummy and co made a mess of this war. It could have been done a lot worse. It wasn't the worst idea of all time, but it was a pretty bad one. The went in with about the amount of plan and care that bonnie and clyde would rob a bank with, or perhaps a great deal less. Now they are in the bank, scared kids with guns, and everything is chaos all around them.
The situation needs new leadership on a much larger scale than just a change of goons in the oval office. It needs a new alliance. Maybe we should bring Iran in. Offer a cooperative partnership to stablize Iraq. Nuclear program? Oil? who cares. We need help, they are there and have the resources to do it, and no one else fits that bill. They would ask for something in return, like a simple "we do this, and you don't attack us" and we should take it. Time to get off our high horses, gain a little humility and admit that we are in over our heads. It doesn't mean we need to stick our tail between our legs and skedattle, but it does mean that we can't go on all barrow gang and expect a happy ending.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
First of all
The situation needs new leadership.... Maybe we should bring Iran in.... We need help, they are there and have the resources to do it, and no one else fits that bill.
This is exactly the kind of creative, out-of-the-box thinking that is simply beyond the abilities of the current president. We're stuck until somebody pushes him hard enough. Maybe next week, if the democrats can harness some of the unhappiness out there.
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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Quote:
The army isn't run by political polls. You fight when congress and the president says to. Your political beliefs mean zilch.
You say this like it's a good thing. It's not. The people in power don't automatically know best.
Ever heared of conscientious objection? I doubt these people are protesting because they're not willing to risk their own lives. It's a moral issue. You talk about how few soldiers have died in Iraq. Have you looked at the civilian death toll? Or do you just not care?
These protestors have my support. They're brave to go up against the government on this.
"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."
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This is a touchy subject for me because I’m in the Army. I haven’t deployed yet, but I most likely will within the year. I have had many friends serve in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Personally, I believe that these individuals have the right to legally petition their government representatives, although I do not agree with their request for “Congress to support the prompt withdrawal of all American military forces and bases from Iraq”. So long as it does not effect their ability to serve as soldiers, let them protest. My political beliefs are very different from those of the current administration’s, but that hasn’t hindered my capacity to function at the best of my abilities. I don’t think that a veteran voicing their desire for the war to end is unpatriotic or worthy of scorn.
What concerns me is the detachment with which many civilians treat soldiers. Yes, we volunteered to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic”, but that does not entail turning off our minds or happily subjecting ourselves to undue abuse. The Army is currently being over-worked, with active units being deployed after only seven to ten months of stateside rotation – the standard is one year. Minimum. People are having four months tacked on at the end of their tours. This is wreaking havoc on families. Training schedules and standards are suffering. The Army is rushing to train up green recruits so they won’t get themselves killed once their in a combat zone. Equipment is wearing out. People who have completed their service obligations are being forced to stay in longer.
In addition to this, while “few” soldiers have died, the numbers of wounded have risen dramatically and these are not veterans who are leaving with just a few scars. These are individuals who have suffered serious trauma, missing multiple limbs or eyesight or mental facilities. And shamefully, the Army is cutting these people loose with substandard benefits, denying adequate long-term treatment and financial aid, because it all comes down to dollars these days.
Political rhetoric and finger-pointing aside, I understand and sympathize with those soldiers who come forward demanding that the war end immediately because it is, quite possibly, killing the military. And it’s very easy for many people to hide behind the shield of “you people volunteered”. I can see why some would think “not for this” and say that this war is not worth the toll that it is taking on the soldiers.
And a lot of soldiers are very pissed off at how the civilian side has interfered with operations from the get go. Most soldiers I know don’t “support” this war, but they’ll fight it. They have the right (within UCMJ/all other relevant laws) to voice their opinions about it.
If you can't do something smart, do something right.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
"More than 200 men and women from the United States armed services have joined a protest calling for the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, organisers say."
They should be fired from the jobs they volunteered for..READ what I just wrote...Again.....Again....once more....Well, it's true.......
The way I see it, they volunteered to protect and defend their country, if the policys of your government are creating more of a threat than would exist otherwise, and to no end.....
Wouldn't that make your government the enemy they really volunteered to fight ?
Actually, the oath they take is something like this: I (name) do solemly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegience to the same...etc, etc...
They don't swear to protect and defend their country.
Now saying that. A military member is not and should not be involved in politics. The member signed the paperwork. If they don't want to fight they should go for CO status. It is the job that they agreed to. Do I like it? NO Would I want my kids to do it? NO
WE the citizens of this country should be the ones protesting and ending this war. Military members have more important things to consider like staying alive.
----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Zisker
WELL said!
----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zisker:
In addition to this, while “few” soldiers have died, the numbers of wounded have risen dramatically and these are not veterans who are leaving with just a few scars. These are individuals who have suffered serious trauma, missing multiple limbs or eyesight or mental facilities.
I remember a vet telling me once that 1 KIA requires the work of 1 other ordinary military person to deal with the results: grave registration, shipment of the body, paperwork, benefits, etc.; but that it takes 5 others, highly skilled, to deal with one wounded: corpmen, ambulance drivers, helicopter pilots, doctors, nurses, therapists, etc.
And the seriously wounded will be a burden on society for a very long time-- years, even lifetime.
The figure for wounded is a more serious cost than the loss of KIA, but it's messier and uglier, and not as dramatic.
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This is exactly the kind of creative, out-of-the-box thinking that is simply beyond the abilities of the current president.
Citizen, Thanks. I think the only good thing that could come of a democratic takeover re: the world political situation is that they might impeach bush and we could get powell as his replacement. I think Hillary will do everything in her power to see that this doesn't happen.
Quote:
And a lot of soldiers are very pissed off at how the civilian side has interfered with operations from the get go.
Zisker,
Sure, no argument. My point is that though americans may feel they have been set up to be knocked down, the iraqis are much more in that position. If we drop out of this conflict, they might get slaughtered. In your opinion, what do you think we owe the Iraqis?
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
http://www.appealforredress.org/
US troops call for Iraq pullout
Wednesday 25 October 2006, 21:50 Makka Time, 18:50 GMT
About 140,000 US soldiers are currently serving in
More than 200 men and women from the United States armed services have joined a protest calling for the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, organisers say...
Gino. What's the source of the information you posted? The Appeal for Redress site doesn't have it, and in fact doesn't provide much info at all.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
My point is that though americans may feel they have been set up to be knocked down, the iraqis are much more in that position. If we drop out of this conflict, they might get slaughtered. In your opinion, what do you think we owe the Iraqis?
You know, that's a very complicated question. I've heard two kinds of stories coming out of Iraq: One is that the Iraqis are great people working hard to get their country back together. The other is that they'll say anything to get their shot at the American dollars being put into public project funds. In reality, there's probably a mix, but until I go over there and see the situation for myself, I don't think that I can give a well-informed opinion on what we owe to the Iraqis. I'm also not sure how much I can get in depth on a public board before I'm running the risk of violating any OPSEC (they're very careful with that these days), so I apologize for being so vague. I hope that made sense.
And there's the seperation between what the US military owes Iraq, what the US government owes Iraq and what America/the World owes Iraq.
And at what point do we stop owing? If the situation is still "imminent violence", but 95% of the population wants all foreign troops to leave, should we do that?
That question is, of course, far beyond my pay grade (and one that I've been pondering for some time).
If you can't do something smart, do something right.
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