Angel seasons 3 and 4; What went wrong? (spoil away)
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 08:12
VIEWED: 14331
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I don't know if i'll be able to keep this short, but i'll try. I tend to lurk, so when i finally do speak i suffer from diarrhea of thought.
I came late to Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. Which is a good and bad thing. Good because i didn't have time to grow any real animosity towards the characters that watching it weekly could bring, allowing me to enjoy a complete picture of the journeys more and be far more open to intial change. Bad because i really wish i had been around when the fandoms where at their height so i could've supported the shows (Not being around to support Angel and Firefly hurts the most.)
But to this thread, and what-if anything-was wrong with season 3-4. From reading anything related to the Jossverses that i can get my hands on, from people that watched it weekly to those that came to it late like i did, its seems for the most part you can divide people that watch Angel into 3 categories when it comes to the seasons.
1) Those that like 1-2 (plus didn't care for much after, though some would come back in season 5 when Buffy ended.)
2) Those that like 2+4 (plus feel season 3 was a mess and/or 5 should never happened.)
3) Those that like 3+5 (and feel that season 4 was a mess.)
This isn't foolproof or total, just basically my opinion. Mostly I fall in the third category, though i don't tend to think of any season of a Joss Whedon show as perfect (with the possible exception of Firefly in is pure dvd form.) The only character arch that i feel is flawless from beginning to end as shown is Wes's, and i still think his is incomplete.
I love season 3 and 5. They're the seasons that made me jump ship from being "Buffy is number 1# Wooot!!" and Angel just being an alright show. Season 3 made me stop seeing it as Buffy's spinoff and Season 5 made me retroactively love characters i had been pretty indifferent to before (namely Cordy and Conner.)
What worked for me in season 3.
1) Its the season where the supporting characters stopped just being supporting characters. The show stopped being all about Angel, and more about Angel's flawed family; where everyone's journey started to have equal weight with the title character's, and in a few cases more interesting.
2) Tensions and the epic quality that truly started here. These lasted well into season 4 and 5, and they only worked because of the foundation laid down in 1&2. The events of this season resonate up and down entire run of angel. Making it a strong season with layered episodes, a strong arch and the ensemble cast that for the most part was up to taking that journey.
3) Heroes and Villains. This is where i noticed that the Buffy kind of has it easy, or as easy as risking your life almost every day can get. She's a cut and dry hero, far from flawless, but a hero none the less. And, for the most part, her major villians pretty much just want her dead or out of the way so they can complete their goals. She's good, they're evil. They want her dead, she kills them and/or keeps them from accomplishing their goals. Its what she was born to do, though she can be delightfully unorthodox in her methods. She and her family are clearly in the end on one side and her enemies aren't really interested in overt manipulation or setting long term goals beyond power and/or the destruction of everything.
Then there is Angel. Wolfram & Hart, Holtz, Justine, and Sahjahn really worked for me in this season. Angel isn't a cut and dry hero. He's equal parts hero, villain and victim. By the end of the show no member of his family is a pure white hat so it makes sense that his villains wouldn't be pure black hats. Its alot easier to cope when your enemies just want you dead, instead of being hell bent on hurting and/or manipulating you into goals set into motion so long ago the scope makes your brain ache.
What didn't work for me in season 3
1) Cordy. My problems with the character started well before season 3. Its not that i never liked Cordy cause i did and do now. I loved her on Buffy and digged her near the beginni
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I realize this thread has been going on for quite a while, but thought I might as well put in a few words since I recently rewathced both Buffy 7 and Angel 5.
For me, Buffy 7 was by far the weakest season, even more so than 1, and Angel 5 was its weakest too. Angel 3&4 are the best IMO, and that includes Cordy/Connor. Just because something happens that you don't think is the greatest thing that could have happened to those characters, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting story. Besides, a lot of the Cordy arc was dictated by Charisma being pregnant. Angel 5 suffered from too many stand-alone eps that did nothing to further the overall story arc.
In any case, the only way to properly assess either Buffy or Angel is to follow the shows in order from the beginning, and I can't understand why Chris skipped over Angel 3&4. I can recall when he asked about that at one time, and I said he should watch them and judge for himself and not let anyone persuade him they weren't worth the time.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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Ecgordon, seeing as I pray to the altar of Buffy 3, 6 and 7, as well as digging 2, 4 and 5, I'm pretty sure I'll like all of Angel when I get to 3 and 4. The slim sets are due out Nov.28, and guess what I want for X-Mass?
Grrr Argh Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Angel 5 suffered from too many stand-alone eps that did nothing to further the overall story arc.
I think that that was actually one of the best elements of S5--standalones. One, it's better for re-watching when you just want to stick a DVD in and watch one or two episodes and get a fix, rather than sitting thru an entire season; and two, by that point, after the messes of Buffy S7 and Angel S4, I'd completely lost confidence in the ME writers to be able to tell a consistent, tight storyline over the span of many episodes. Even the mini-arc they had going on during S5 of Lindsey and his little plot made almost zero sense from episode to episode. Jeffrey Bell even comments on that during the audio commentary for 'Not Fade Away.' Specifically, he says, "We were basically making Lindsey's storyline up as we went along, and maybe some of you out there are saying, 'Well, yeah, obviously.'"
Yeah, Jeffrey, it showed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Angel 3&4 are the best IMO, and that includes Cordy/Connor. Just because something happens that you don't think is the greatest thing that could have happened to those characters, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting story.
True, but the writers still have to convince you of the value of said plot development, and S4 falls short of that in many departments for me.
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Season 3 I have no problems with. The characters all have great storylines and grow in new and not necessarily expected ways. The Connor thing didn't bother me at all even though I knew from the get go he'd age incredibly rapidly somehow. The whole season flowed nicely and the end was one of the best cliffhangers Joss ever leaves us with.
Season 4 on the other hand was absolutely terrible. The season starts out with promises of great things to come and ends with a wimper. Now I know Joss is one for pulling crazy twists and turns on us when we think we're going one way. This was just done poorly. I mean the entire lead in to Season 4 was just dropped on the floor and swept under the rug. While it's presented as this big mystery and where is this going type of thing. Then we find out it's going no where and made no sense. I had a lot of faith in the writers until Jasmine showed up. Another part that didn't live up to the hype was the beast and angelus. For how bad these guys are supposed to be they really didn't do all that much damage. I expected more killing than there was.
Of course it had it's bright spots. Like seeing it the first time and being pulled in wondering where it's going. Orpheus is a great episode. You get to see a lot of character conflict and such. Great fight scene in Rain of Fire. Other than that the season was pretty terrible.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The Connor thing didn't bother me at all even though I knew from the get go he'd age incredibly rapidly somehow.
Have you been following The 4400?...
SPOILERS for 4400
...because they used the 'baby ages to adulthood rapidly' plot device in that one and it resulted in about 6 consecutive dud episodes.
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Why exactly is the 4400 reference used here??? How about getting back to the series at hand? I can just tell there will be a huge debate about the 4400 now so Im stomping it before its begun...hopefully.
I dont see what everyone has against Cordelia! ok, sure she was a little sickly sweet with the whole "im a higher being, i understand now" bit.... and the Connor/Cordelia issue was a little 
but she was hillarious when she went evil-woman-with-a-baby! I mean, cmon! never saw that one comming did you?
And I never understood Jasmine. She did her job i suppose but she kinda lacked Oomph. Also... why is she Mocha skinned and older than Connor??? That makes no sense. Blame it on magic if you will but still: Wierd.
Also: Connor was a major disapointment. I expected
so much from him, and then Pftt!!! Bad actor I reckon. He didnt even look believable.
Finally....I know this is only supposed to be about Seasons 3&4 but... what the heck:Season 5... Set out to be good, there were a few really memorable episodes and then.... they all commit suicide. Can i say- Huh??? That was kinda a let down.... I wish they hadnt cancelled the series.... sob.
That is all.
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I got totally lost on season 4.
Well, I was following Angel weekly. I thought Cordelia was laughable though.
I was starting to lose interest in Season 3, don't know why. But I agree with someone that it had a good cliffhanger with Angel in the middle of the sea. I just did not get the Saint Cordy as well.
I was going "oh crap!" with the Cordy and Connor. When Jasmine first appeared, I have no idea what just happened and why. That was all the Angel for me then.
BUFFY
I like Buffy. Season 1 was not that good, but it picks up as the story continues. This is what I like about Buffy, it's the characters and the actors who portray them.
The Buffy characters are very well developed. They are a family.
I liked Glory as a villain. She's really fun. But Cordy as a villain? Not much.
I liked seeing Cordy in Angel and Angel in Angel. 
When I watched Angel, I already knew who Wes, Cordy and Angel were. It was easy to understand them. The return of Faith got me all giddy.
I think Fred is cool. I thought her to be the resident Willow of Angel. The concept of having an Angel Investigations is just really fun.
The idea of having 2 shows in 1 verse is very, very cool. Just irks me that I did not see the finale of Angel.
SOMETHING THAT REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING
I was watching Buffy Season 7. Finale. It was Principal Wood who said that "if they move, kill 'em!"
If anyone remembers, Joss was going all cryptic some months ago. Said exactly the same thing. Maybe it's important.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:
Why exactly is the 4400 reference used here??? How about getting back to the series at hand? I can just tell there will be a huge debate about the 4400 now so Im stomping it before its begun...hopefully.
I thought it was pretty obvious - I was making the point that Angel and The 4400 both used the same plot device, and in both cases the quality of the series suffered as a consequence. The inference being that said plot device shouldn't have been used on Angel in the first place, which is very relevant to the title of this thread: "Angel seasons 3 and 4; What went wrong?"
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