Star Wars: Remember the Good Old Days?

POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 8, 2006 22:56
VIEWED: 8677
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CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
EDIT: I'm going to delete the rest of my reply, as I went off on a mushy FireFly tangent; and I realize that this is probably not a respectful thing to do towards the original poster, seeing as he/she meant it to be about Star Wars, really. There be plenty of other places for me to talk about FireFly. :)

Well if the starting point was in this thread, and you remember what you said, by all means post the tangent.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Oh, I forgot to leave this in; duh on me. :)

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

When Star Wars was full of people that, though in extraordinary circumstances, were ordinary. People who were not heroes by choice, but because they had no choice in the matter?

Oh, you said this so well! Growing fonder of you by the minute. :)

Good to know.

Quote:
Truly, I think you really captured a valuable asset of FireFly here. And it reminds me of "The Train Job":

Sheriff: "But a man learns all the details of a situation like ours, well, then he has a choice."
Mal: "I don't believe he does."

Yeah, and you saying that made me make a list, it's a quick one so it might not work right.

Why they're heroes:
Han Solo: He tried not to be but he learned all the reasons.
Chewie: Same as Han but he probably went faster.
Leia: Family pressured her into it (we assume), then family (and every one else she knew) died.
Luke: Tried to avoid it, everyone died.
Obi: Had nothing else left. (Or not, we really don't know.)
R2: He was chosen by Leia
C3P0: He followed R2
Lando: He lost his whole city and his best friend (though he got one of those back.)

Not one of them did it because, "It was the right thing to do," not at first at least.

Quote:
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

I try not to respond to sigs, this makes two in one thread. This line just keeps on looking at me begging me to say something.

It's just so powerful, good choice.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 7:36 PM

I didn’t make this to bash the prequels. Whether you hate them or love them you have to admit that there was a time when Star Wars was a land of rust where ordinary people were the ones we cared about. That time has gone. No longer are there ordinary characters, no longer is there rust, and no longer would people desecrate the corpse of their steed to save a friend in a foul smelling manner. Like I said, whether you like that change or hate it you have to admit (if you‘re going to be honest) that the change did take place.

That said it might be best if you ignore the rest of this post unless you really wanted to hear my response to Locklann.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lochlann:
So much more has entered the story now, most importantly the Prophecy of the Chosen One, which is what brings along all the baggage that most people point to as "changes."

Actually I thought the prophesy was pretty good. It is a huge thing going out of its way to say, "Jedi are idiots!" It takes Yoda 2+ movies to realize they could be looking at it in the wrong way and Obi-Wan never gets it.

(If someone here didn't get it let's take a moment. There were many Jedi and two Sith. The force was unbalanced.

Anakin came and killed off all but two Jedi and there were remained two Sith, the Force was balanced.)

It's a good way of saying that Jedi are romanticized 20 years on (about when the original trilogy takes place) like so many great warrior factions. It doesn't contradict the originals in any way but it adds depth.

Quote:
(The introduction of Qui-Gon and the changed role of Obi-Wan;

That is where the problem is, in the CHANGES. In Serenity telling us that Mal was a volunteer might have changed our view of him, but it didn't change the story. What if we found out Mal wasn't Zoe's superior officer, in fact they were not even in the same unit? That is what the introduction of Qui-Gon did. It changed the movies instead of perceptions.

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Anakin as more than just a simple bad guy warrior; the stagnation of the old Jedi Order; etc.)

Actually Anakin was by far the simplest bad guy I've seen, and I've seen a lot of bad movies. Even so those are nothings people complain about as primary problems, certainly not the Jedi Order bit.

Quote:
One can like or dislike this changed view of Star Wars, that's completely personal, and to be sure there is plenty about Lucas's fleshed-out story that I don't like.

Very few people criticize at length about the changed view, they prefer the old view and will tell you about how much they do and why, but what they criticize is when more than the view changes.

I'm telling you, take this one single example: Obi and Yoda. There is a perfect parallel in Serenity. To do exactly what was done to that relationship to Zoe and Mal’s all we would have to do was make sure that it was explicitly stated in Serenity over the course of the entire two hours that Mal was not Zoe's direct superior but instead someone who never worked with her in the field, a general perhaps.

Wouldn't that have bothered you just a little?

Quote:
But to say that one doesn't like the enlargened scope of the story is very different from saying that Lucas somehow went wrong.

I'm not saying he went wrong, I don't know what he wanted to say. Perhaps all of the contradictions were correcting errors to grievous to be changed in the original trilogy‘s special edition.

I'm just saying it's inconsistent and I liked it when it wasn't.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 7:43 PM

cartoon, and everyone else, don't forget that this thread was started on praise of the originals

cartoon I agree with basically everything you said about the originals and their effect.

Quote:
Were they worth the price of admission? Yeah, to me, anyhow.

That's not saying much, unless you live in a place with expensive theaters.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 8:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I didn’t make this to bash the prequels. Whether you hate them or love them you have to admit that there was a time when Star Wars was a land of rust where ordinary people were the ones we cared about. That time has gone. No longer are there ordinary characters, no longer is there rust, and no longer would people desecrate the corpse of their steed to save a friend in a foul smelling manner. Like I said, whether you like that change or hate it you have to admit (if you‘re going to be honest) that the change did take place.

You make some good points in your post (though I'm not quoteing all of it in the interest of space conservation).

I don't think those times are gone. There's still rust and grime, we saw some on Tatooine in Ep. 1, and I would say the lower streets and bar from Ep. 2 were fairly grimy in tone if not actual dirt. It's just that we're seeing different parts of the universe. As I said in my post above, the originals were about a rag-tag rebellion. The prequels are (and everyone always knew would be) about the Clone Wars, the fall of the Republic, and the rise of the Empire. And the lack of rust thematically supports this. The "rust" in this trilogy was in the social and political spectrum. Sure, the spaceships are grimy, but it just covers the corruption underneath. The prequels are all about a gilded age. Don't let the fresh coat of paint throw you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

CARTOON

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
cartoon, and everyone else, don't forget that this thread was started on praise of the originals

Oh, I saw that. I was agreeing with you on that, as you subsequently agreed with me.

(see below)

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
cartoon I agree with basically everything you said about the originals and their effect.

Does that mean you don't agree with me about my desire to have seen all of the Ewoks incinerated by the Death Star?

Quote:
That's not saying much, unless you live in a place with expensive theaters.

And, hence, you get my value of the prequels. Yeah, I enjoyed them. Did I feel ripped off for the price of admission? No. Did they live up to my expectations? No. (Heck. I don't live up to my own expectations, how can I expect someone else to?)

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
cartoon I agree with basically everything you said about the originals and their effect.

Does that mean you don't agree with me about my desire to have seen all of the Ewoks incinerated by the Death Star?

I'd settle for Endor being named a black rock so that no one would ever meet them again, removal of any knowledge of their existence from the public record and consciousness, and other things like that.

Actually I thought it was good that even though you had these sickeningly cute things they weren't exactly helpless or nice (human sacrifice). And you still got to see at least one of them die a painful death.

Any time that you see something dealing with the painful death of a friend in a realistic manner (in this case denial), no matter how cute it is, it gives back some of the depth that may have been lost by having the thing there in the first place.

In the end they're not exactly my favorite bit, but I admit that there is a place for being cute enough to cause vomiting. (Remember the eye of the garbage thing? Now that was cute.) I also admit that even with them I like RotJ

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This is another thing not specifically to cartoon

About the prequels and expectations, I know you couldn't expect Episode I to live up to expectations but after Episode I the rest should have, I mean knowing what Episode I was like I didn't think II could possibly go below my expectations, which it did, and once I made them even lower, and then ignored the fact that the movie existed for a while, Episode III met, and indeed exceeded my very low expectations. The problem is that almost all movies would have exceeded the level of expectations I had at that point.

Star Wars should have never gotten to the point that I expected the next movie to be that bad.

(I freely admit that that is totally opinion.)

SPAINT2K

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 12:30 AM

There have been some excellent responses in this thread, but at this time I simply wanted to let all ewok haters know that the ewoks were wiped out by the destruction of the death star. I'm sure you'll all be very happy when you've read this treatise based on sound scientific principles.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html

Steve

CARTOON

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 1:30 AM

Sorry, I had to delete a double post which I accidently posted, during my extreme displeasure at the thought of their cursed, furry cuteness!!

CARTOON

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spaint2k:
There have been some excellent responses in this thread, but at this time I simply wanted to let all ewok haters know that the ewoks were wiped out by the destruction of the death star. I'm sure you'll all be very happy when you've read this treatise based on sound scientific principles.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html

Steve

Very cool.

If this happened at the beginning of the film, and thereby spared me having to endure their furry cuteness throughout, it might've been worth it. As it is, I still had to bear their unpleasantness through the ten, initial theatrical viewings, then again, a decade and half later for the single viewing of the re-release. Most annoying.

Lucas couldn't have made more annoying creatures if he filled the film with smurfs.

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