Real World Event Discussions

Understanding Pakistan

POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 1, 2026 17:13
VIEWED: 4092
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KPO
Friday, August 6, 2010 1:41 AM

I personally find Pakistan a very frustrating country, but it's worth understanding them, and this is a good blog post: http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/02/the-roots-of-pak
istans-rage
/

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 6, 2010 6:55 PM

Thanx KPO! I found that fascinating, and learned a lot. I’ve condensed it to cover salient points for those that don’t want to read the whole thing. I think it’s important. He points to four major issues that affect Pakistanis’ attitudes:

Quote:

India

The struggle between Hindus and Muslims across India is a thousand years old. Muslim conquerors stormed down from today’s Iran and Afghanistan to build some of the world’s richest and most powerful empires. A tolerant and complex civilization grew up across the subcontinent; Hindus and Muslims sometimes fought but often they lived together reasonably well and, as Muslims remember it, this was a happy and prosperous time.

British conquest of India destroyed the Islamic empires. Muslims (roughly 25% of the total population) lost the protection of powerful princes; the British sought to divide and rule the two communities, favoring now one and then then other. Muslims came to feel that the subcontinent sheltered two nations: one Hindu, one Muslim and that the differences between the two were so great that the Muslims needed their own state. Muslims insisted on and obtained the partition of British India into Hindu and Muslim states. Pakistan was the state for the Muslims.

The British left India in a hurry as the subcontinent descended into chaos. Millions of Hindus and Muslims on the wrong side of the dividing line fled or were driven from their homes. Something like 14.5 million refugees were created initially with ultimately about 25 million people moving from one country to the other; somewhere between 200,000 and 1,000,000 people were killed in vicious communal riots whose memory still poisons the region today.

British also allowed the rulers of the “princely states” to choose whether to join India or Pakistan; Kashmir’s ruler opted for India.. India won the war, and continues to hold most of the old princely state.

In subsequent years, life in both countries, but especially in Pakistan, was dominated by the consequences of Partition. Settling refugees, periodic wars, the running sore of Kashmir: all keep the memories alive. Almost everything in Pakistan’s history revolves around the unequal struggle with India.. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program is seen here as a triumph against the odds, and the nuclear arsenal is seen as the country’s last-ditch ace in the hole. Most Pakistanis are completely convinced that India is ceaselessly plotting Pakistan’s destruction and everything in Pakistani foreign policy boils down to a simple calculation about who is winning the zero-sum contest between these two states.

Since 1989 American foreign policy has been shiftinh slowly towards a strategic partnership with India. From an American perspective, the rise of India towards superpower status is one of the best things happening in the world today. The rise of India means China’s rise is likely to be peaceful; sharing Asia with India and Japan means that China is less likely to try to dominate Asia. A peaceful China balanced by powerful neighbors is exactly what the United States hopes to see.

The burgeoning US-India relationship frightens and horrifies Pakistan. The US takes India’s side in major controversies — blaming Pakistan for terrorism in Kashmir and India while doing nothing about India’s actions in Kashmir. Worst of all, the US is helping India gain access to nuclear materials and nuclear technologies while continuing to block Pakistan’s attempts in the field.

India is the first major issue driving the US and Pakistan apart; Americans should not underestimate its importance. India is an all consuming obsession for many people here, and the presence of a larger, rapidly growing and richer neighbor just 18 miles from Lahore is something many Pakistanis can never forget. The perception that America is betraying its old and faithful Pakistani ally to benefit from India’s rise unites the military and those in the religious community who hate and fear Hinduism even as it alienates many pat

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KPO
Saturday, August 7, 2010 12:57 AM

Quote:

Thanx KPO! I found that fascinating, and learned a lot.

As did I. In particular I was surprised by:

"The US, Pakistanis say, has given only derisory military aid — $1.5 billion versus the estimated $40 billion the war has cost Pakistan."

Whereas before, I had pretty much formed the impression that the U.S was funding the whole thing...

And also:

"More than 60,000 people have been killed in clashes between Indian security forces and Kashmiris in recent years; this is much worse than anything that has happened in Tibet."

60,000 since 1989 I think that is. I didn't realise it was that much of an open sore, although apparently the situation is easing. I was beginning to think that the U.S should be pushing for a peace deal on the Kashmiri issue just as much as the Israel/Palestinian conflict - but then I read this:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/30/obama-kashmir-mumbai-oped-cx_rs_1201s
alam.html

What Should Obama Do On Kashmir?
Reihan Salam

"For months now, Barack Obama's foreign policy team has been promoting the idea that the road to a secure Afghanistan runs through Kashmir. Taking a long view of the conflict, Obama seems to have concluded that resolving the dispute over Kashmir will allow Pakistan to focus on defeating Islamist militants in Afghanistan and within its own borders. This is an interesting notion, but American mediation will in all likelihood make matters much worse.

Right now, India and Pakistan are involved in the first serious bilateral talks on Kashmir's future in decades. An American role will raise nationalist sensitivities in India, and it will strengthen the hand of Pakistani military elements who are reluctant to make any concessions on Kashmir. After all, why make concessions for free if the United States will offer you some generous financial incentive to do much the same thing? The smartest thing President Obama could do on Kashmir is probably nothing. We have to hope that India and Pakistan can work out their differences on Kashmir on their own. Our most pressing concern is to see to it that today's tensions don't become a wider war."

Hmm.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 2:23 PM

KPO, seeing that we are soul mates I have to ask you to not spend time researching Pakistan. I think your time (which I think highly) should be spent reading my constitution and the writings of America's founding fathers. Or start with Paine's common sense, however Thomas Jefferson's writings are a must read...I'll see you on the other side

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 2:51 PM


How many Pakistanis are researching and trying to understand us ?





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KPO
Saturday, August 7, 2010 10:09 PM

Auraptor you fascinate me as usual. You are for the idea of projecting American power around the world, promoting/defending American interests I suppose - but you are against the idea of understanding the world, local nations and cultures that you deal with and come into contact with in the process (this is just a liberal dalliance?)?

To my mind this kind of thinking leads directly to horrible mistakes like, "We'll be greeted as liberators." Is there anything worthwhile to you in 'knowing your enemy'? What about your friends? (Pakistan is both).

Kaneman, I'm sure your constitution is a thing of great philosophical merit and beauty, in which your traitorous founding fathers wrote ideas that were well ahead of their time... I'm still not completely sold. I respect your national character (or your right to one at least) - I guess I'm not sold on the idea that America as a nation is anything more than the sum of its parts: 300million strong English-founded nation with a (inherited) continent full of resources and a historical lucky streak... Perhaps if Canada or Australia were 300 million strong they would be better, more successful countries?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 10:24 PM

Per this article in Newsweek, Pakistan is pretty much playing the U.S. and Taliban off against each other to keep the aid $$ rolling in.


Quote:

The Afghan Taliban logistics officer laughs about the news he’s been hearing on his radio this past week. The story is that a Web site known as WikiLeaks has obtained and posted thousands of classified field reports from U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and hundreds of those reports mention the Americans’ suspicions that Pakistan is secretly assisting the Taliban—a charge that Pakistan has repeatedly and vehemently denied. “At least we have something in common with America,” the logistics officer says. “The Pakistanis are playing a double game with us, too.”


http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/with-friends-like-these.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, August 8, 2010 4:07 PM

Quote:

I guess I'm not sold on the idea that America as a nation is anything more than the sum of its parts: 300million strong English-founded nation with a (inherited) continent full of resources and a historical lucky streak... Perhaps if Canada or Australia were 300 million strong they would be better, more successful countries?
KPO, my opinion exactly.

Geezer, I also agree. When we were there, the Afghans were playing the Americans off the Russians for just the same reason. We'd build them a hospital, the Russians would build them a road (ironically, straight to Russia which they later used to invade); we'd give them an airways, Russia would give the grain silohs. It fits perfectly with the mentality of that part of the world...and not just that part, either.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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KPO
Sunday, August 8, 2010 9:26 PM

Good article Geezer, I agree with that assessment of things.

The question is do we stop at this reality, in our dealings with Pakistan? Throw our hands up in exasperation and resolve to take stern, principled action against the country, based on its behaviour? (this seems to be the preffered American mode of diplomacy)

Are tough, chastening policies the way to make a free, democratic and useful ally of Pakistan? or will they make Pakistan retreat into military dictatorship and Islamic extremism (the two often go together)?

I propose looking for a better strategy, based on understanding of the country, and where the malign elements (terrorist groups and the ISI) draw their power from (public fear of India and the U.S, and each other).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 9, 2010 2:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

How many Pakistanis are researching and trying to understand us ?





Sounds like you support following their example. Rather than try and research and understand, we should just start blowing shit up. Women, children, wedding parties...

Oh. We're already doing that in Pakistan!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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