(Not Piratenews) Uncommon Hysteria for a Common Flu - New Flu Laws

POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Monday, September 7, 2009 22:47
VIEWED: 2263
PAGE 1 of 1

ANTHONYT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 9:31 AM

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO123558/

Hello,

I was disturbed by this article, as the government seems to be preparing to take some pretty drastic measures and steep abridgment of freedoms in order to contain a 'pandemic' of an illness that is not demonstrably worse than other common illnesses.

Quarantines, home invasions, and forced vaccine dissemination seems to be up for vote. I am watching this with interest, because if one state passes this kind of law, then I anticipate that others will follow suit.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

HAKEN

Sunday, September 6, 2009 9:36 AM

It's probably not going to pass.

Besides, just think about it. During a pandemic, it's probably best to stay in as much as possible anyway since the virus will likely kill you before the government will.

Haken

http://twitter.com/haken

ANTHONYT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 9:54 AM

Hello,

Except... there are many viruses, like the swine flu, that probably won't kill you. Probably won't make you any sicker than the regular flu.

But they can call it a pandemic and then they can have their way with you, can't they?

I hope it doesn't pass.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 12:57 PM

Have to disagree with Haken on this. I'm one of many on the board who studies viruses and their diffusion patterns. Many seem to start from a vaccine. Govts. completely failed to quarantine AIDS, knowing full well what would happen. I can only reach one conclusion from that: Govts. have a vested interest in a sick population.

Given these facts, no, I don't trust govt. to handle any matter that comes along. Re: Bird flu and Swine flu: I think the govt strategy is this:

1. Create panic
2. Offer vaccine
3. Site the view cases of vaccine-contracted disease as evidence of an epidemic for further panic, go to 1.

Govt's motivations?

4. Control
5. Profit
6. Population Control
7. Selective Population Control

That said, not all vaccine programs are equal or a threat.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION: Genetically engineered vaccines do not cause disease, only blood derived vaccines, specifically live vaccines. Some live vaccines spread different diseases than the one they are a vaccine for because they carry blood.

KWICKO

Sunday, September 6, 2009 1:23 PM

Wow. They've finally done it. They figured out how to stop epidemics in their tracks: Outlaw them! It'll now be illegal to be sick, so we'll be magically healthier.

Mike

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:36 PM

Mike,

We tried "Denying it exists." Reagan was an ace at this, but has since been outclassed by Thabo Mbeki, who wouldn't even cave in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Given that disease do exist, it's better to outlaw them, but I think the laws are misguided: they should make leash laws for infections. If a disease wanders outside the designated area, it gets fined.

Finding cures is not only unprofitable, it makes their brains hurt.

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:59 PM

Crazy bill!

Brought to you by.....

GlaxoPfizerMerckAstraZenecaBristolMyersSquibTevaJohnson BayerNovartisSanofiAventisAbbott

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Wow. They've finally done it. They figured out how to stop epidemics in their tracks: Outlaw them! It'll now be illegal to be sick, so we'll be magically healthier.

And in case you do get sick, without the mandatory health insurance, it will be illegal to get well...

RAHLMACLAREN

Sunday, September 6, 2009 3:42 PM

From the NBC Nightly News (which I usually trust, but now it seems like a distilled version; less straight up facts sometimes, and less asking the right questions]), I've heard them several times go over how to prevent getting the flu, but I have yet to hear them remind the stupid masses what to do once they actually have it.

It seems the MSM just wants people to be afraid enough to obey the Good Government, or to buy a product from their sponsors(Gee, who's gonna make the "swine" flu vaccine?[Big Pharma]).

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

NIKI2

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:03 PM

Quote:
I've heard them several times go over how to prevent getting the flu, but I have yet to hear them remind the stupid masses what to do once they actually have it.

Maybe we're listening to different news, because I've heard as much about what to do once you get it as how to avoid it.

But I don't like the bill, and am almost positive it won't pass. Fear tactics work pretty well, but I think personal freedom and protection of privacy, as well as distrust of giving government any opportunity to "force" people, will out. Fear of 9/11 worked real good, but I don't think ths causes enough fear to outweigh common sense.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:27 PM

Quote:
(Gee, who's gonna make the "swine" flu vaccine?[Big Pharma]).

Actually that would be Baxter, you know, the guys who got caught sending live virus labelled as vaccines - and I tend to suspect them quite mightily of doin that deliberately, especially if you check the evidence of other shipments (that might not have been so scrupulously checked) and cross-compare with outbreaks.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

It's very, VERY hard to "accidently" violate BSL-3 procedures badly enough for that to happen, and it's not the first time a company has mistakenly shipped such material, or even shipped it to the wrong address.

As I recall there was some hassle over a Varisella (sp)? vacc being given live or somesuch as well about five years ago.

However, they're makin it under subcontract with Searle, and guess who's in the drivers seat up there ?

Why good ole Donny-Boy Rumsfeld, same bastard behind the 1976 Swine flu bullshit, and a vaccine that killed more people than the flu did, same bastard behind Tamiflu, which doesn't work too well and has some damned bizarre side effects, and let's not even talk about Aspartame.

That's the problem, I don't TRUST these bastards, who would, given their conduct over the last decade - and as pointed out to me (and shown up by a recent vaccine-caused polio spread), anything with a "live" component, however attenuated, is damn dangerous, Flumist is an especially ugly case of this.

The other danger seems to lie in immunologic adjuvants, which are both poorly understood and apparently can lead to neurological damage in a susceptible percentage of a population - I wish to *hell* someone with more related education than me was researching it, cause I can maybe figure out the cause and process, but without the related background, not how to mitigate it.

There was some flak over a trial of this supposed swine flu vacc in poland, concerning quite a few deaths and other complications, but any details got quashed pretty quick.

Seriously, best defense against any flu is being in good health and following decent cleanliness and hygiene regimes - those have no risk whatever of killing you, as opposed to some cobbled together, poorly tested, fast tracked product shovelled out the door for a quick buck.

Of more concern to me is just how many resources they have sitting eagerly on stand-by, almost salivating at the thought of finally getting to put us rowdy peons in their place - we have em under observation up there at Grayling practicing civil unrest pacification, complete with mockups of that ADS beam shit they promised would never be used on americans (yeah right, that's what they WANTED it for in the first place) and those new ASV's configured for domestic use, complete with headlights, turn signals and so forth - apparently they now have sirens too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1117_Armored_Security_Vehicle

Some folks might scream conspiracy theory, but how the hell is it theory when it's fully documented public policy ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

And now actually has troops assigned to it.
http://mobile.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2008/10/27/hafetz/inde
x.html

This in light of just how far our own so-called protectors have been victimising us by spying (NSA) and setups/pre-emptive arrest/detention (Miami Model) and even assassination and sabotage (Cheney/CIA/Blackwater) ought to give anyone with a working brain a little pause when they're pushing so damned hard for a panic they can use as an excuse.

Right now three things are blocking them, one being the general apathy of people tired of living in fear, who just can't be bothered cause like the boy who cried wolf, the powers that be have gone to the booga-booga well just one too many times.
(Seriously, swine flu, AGAIN, with folks walkin around who remember the scam from the first time around ?!)

The second is related to the first, a suspicious, hostile populace not quite buyin what they've been told as so much of the lies come crashing down and the

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:34 PM

Like I said before

Its a FLU. Get over it!

It's not the pandemic of 1917-18.

However, there is one mighty suspicious thing about this particular strain: It has a gene sequence which is found ONLY in lab strains. This was tested and retested by a very credible virologist and his testimony went... nowhere. Rue told me about this, and since she tends to drill down pretty hard to the facts, I believe it.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:57 PM

Oh, you two noticed!

I wasn't gonna mention that part since I really don't have the background and could not follow the explaination, which given the source I did not trust entirely.

But yes, this bastard is engineered, and I highly suspect Baxter, and that they did it on purpose.

And since we're going THERE....

Mexico does not have as rigorous a testing schedule as Austria does - map the outbreak there to Baxters last shipment of seasonal vaccines and you'll find it a one-for-one match as the vector.

I tend to butt heads awful damned hard with you two over some stuff, but I could really use your help on this one, cause despite our differences I do think our endpoint goal on this issue is the same, and my lack of field specific knowledge is crippling, especially in regard to how to figure out the adjuvants problem and solve it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 10:07 PM

Niki,

You're just proving that it would take a disaster on the scale of 9-11 to get this legislation to pass.

Don't give TPTB ideas like that! You should know better

Frem,

About genetic engineering, viruses, and vaccines, this gets very confused in the underground (read conspiracy) media, largely because they, also, don't have the scientific background for it. So in sciences of one molecule:

If the *vaccine* is engineered, then that means it is *relatively* safe (as I said before on our last exchange, anyone already exposed to the virus is fucked in this case.)

A vaccine is engineered by taking the viral genetic code, selecting a single gene that codes for a shell protein, the kind that the immune system would develop an antigen for. There's no blood, no virus, the only danger is allegry (which might just tip you off to an infection you didn't know was there.)

A virus could *theoretically* be engineered, but no one knows how to do it yet. I keep pretty up on this stuff, and I'd say we're close, but not quite there yet, so I don't believe that such a thing exists.

A virus can be *introduced* by reckless experimentation, like that done by Hilary Koprowski under the WHO in the 1950s. Koprowski, like Sauk (Both jews, make of that what you will, Pirate news) was working on a polio vaccine. It was a race. Koprowski was experimenting with importing primates from west africa, and using their blood.

The most friendly version of this is that Koprowski thought that these animals were immune to polio and he could copy that immunity

The most unfriendly version is Koprowski knew the primates had some sort of plague, and he thought he could get it to take in humans.

The latter is a conspiracy theory, but all Koprowski would need to know is that primates are related to humans, he wouldn't even have to know that the plague was viral, much less what virus it was, or how it worked.

The official story is that both versions are wrong and the dog ate the origin of AIDS, a story which will survive as long as Koprowski lives to edit the story. But the evidence is overwhelming and there's no plausible alternative.

So, if someone is deliberately introducing a plague, they're not strictly speaking *engineering* it, in the genetic sense, because they don't know how (if they did, they probably would.) But they might be reintroducing it:

Sig,

Actually, yes, it is the epidemic of 1918, that's the virus that we are talking about, as bird flu or swine flu, IIRC, it's the same virus. I think the argument that they want a plague, or at least enough of one to scare people, is probably sound.

Of course, the treatment for this is the same as any: Stave off the serious conditions, eg. pneumonia with a little guaifenesin (guaiac. an herbal remedy that cures pneumonia, the only treatment really, and maybe the only thing remaining of Taino(Arawak) who were wiped out by Columbus. They hadn't yet come up with a cure for "infected with europeans")

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, September 6, 2009 11:58 PM

You know, I ain't sure I buy the entire premise of vaccination so much anymore, given that much of the background research I had to do seems to point at proper sanitation and overall public health as significantly more effective in ending pandemics - rather than convincing me of the necessity, every verifiable thing I have learned seems to do the opposite, so be advised you're likely fighting an uphill battle on that.

Quote:
guaifenesin

Oh I am quite well aware it works, never knew exactly WHY till ya told me.
Still tastes like the bottom of a sewage pit, too.

Quote:
They hadn't yet come up with a cure for "infected with europeans"

We did, it's called bullets, and lots of em.
*snark/sarcasm*

I was pondering that today however - and you know, had we more naval power at the time it would have been MUCH less of an issue, cause you think about it, if you cannot get the troops on the ground cause they're swimming with the sharks, you cannot take territory.
Something WE really oughta think about before we go haring off willy nilly into the next dumbass war with someone who can maybe do something similar to us.
Not to mention grunts don't do a lotta good without beans&bullets, something we're gettin a rough lesson about up in the Khyber pass, but I digress...

Although, with that thought in mind, why not an intercept-vector bacterium harmless to humans that kills the damn virus before it can spread ?
I don't know the science mind you, but the philsophy of it, maybe we're working the wrong angle from bad assumptions in the first place - wouldn't be the first time we did THAT, you know.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 1:46 AM

Quote:
You know, I ain't sure I buy the entire premise of vaccination so much anymore...

It's a sound idea, but there are others in the works which might be better. I just met a guy who has come up with a new approach which might work better, and even treat people who are *already* sick, which is a definite plus. Ironically, he's the guy who invented this study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

He basically as much as said Milgram was a madman who was always provoking students to come up with new experiments and then taking credit for him but this guy had no interest in being credited with this monster.

I was going to post that experiment to a new thread on psychology, because I think Niki's book post, while interesting, the book itself is on the shallow end of psych, and this crowd could certainly go a lot deeper.

Quote:
proper sanitation and overall public health as significantly more effective in ending pandemics

*Really* depends on the disease. quarantine is also effective. Some of the vaccination programs are pretty moronic, I'll grant. I'm sure I carry a few viruses because of them. So, they are dangerous as well. OTOH, I'm glad I got the HepB series, because I had to work with downs syndrome people with HepB that bit, and the coworkers who didn't get the vaccine got the disease.

But I suspect that the immunotherapy of the future will be a single injection of the antibodies pre-made. I'm not opposed to the vaccination approach, it's just also a dangerous vector for other things. I think that with these engineered vaccines we could use a less drastic approach as well. I'd like a zero needle injection future. Needles, like surgery, are a disease risk, and without the needles and without blood/live viruses, you would eliminate the chance of secondary infection or anaphylactic shock.

Quote:
be advised you're likely fighting an uphill battle on that.

Ya do know that I know what I'm talking about, and not toeing a company line here.

Quote:
guaifenesin
Quote:
Oh I am quite well aware it works, never knew exactly WHY till ya told me.
Still tastes like the bottom of a sewage pit, too.

It's a tree resin, I don't know the actual chemical source, could be a mold, probably native to the tree, I don't have a taste comparison. It just tastes very dry to me. Don't take the combo with other drugs that they sell, only the straight guaifenesin. Even trace amounts of other ingredients can counteract it. Cough suppressants usually operate in the other direction, increasing mortality rate.

Quote:
Quote:

They hadn't yet come up with a cure for "infected with europeans"

We did, it's called bullets, and lots of em.
*snark/sarcasm*

Actually, it was kinda headed there.

Quote:
I was pondering that today however - and you know, had we more naval power at the time it would have been MUCH less of an issue, cause you think about it, if you cannot get the troops on the ground cause they're swimming with the sharks, you cannot take territory.

This point was made in Mexico some 500 years ago. There had been a plan for Mexican expansion into the caribbean, but it was trumped by the Aztec agenda. Essentially, the core of the argument was that rather than fight the maya, they could simply expand seawards, which they had tried. True, it wasn't anything as a navy compared with spain. But both sides had noted that if Mexico had built up a more powerful navy, they might have beaten the spanish all the way back to spain.

But the situation was worse than it seems. Montezuma II was Aztec for George W Bush and everyone knew it. The school myth that Cortes conquered Mexico with a few hundred spaniards neglects that he was not only joined by 300,000 indians, but in fact cajoled into attacking mexico. This is also the origin of the "white gods" myth.

The actual legend was that should any ruler ever anger the gods, Quetzalcoatl would send white warriors on white ships to destroy him (the white winged serpent had a thin

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 3:28 AM

It was funny, I was arguing with my dad over the Swine Flu vaccine, and he sent me THIS article he found as a reason why the vaccine is so perfectly safe.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/08/health/main5001182.shtml

Basic gist of the article is that bird flu can make the swine flu more virulent.

Do you know, that the European Medicines Agency that's distributing the swine flu vaccine over there has listed on their site that one of their vaccine "bases" (before putting in any of the supposed vaccine) is itself a Vietnamese bird flu vaccine? For real!

http://www.emea.europa.eu/htms/human/pandemicinfluenza/novelflu.htm
http://www.emea.europa.eu/htms/human/pandemicinfluenza/background.htm
http://www.emea.europa.eu/htms/human/pandemicinfluenza/vaccines.htm
http://www.emea.europa.eu/humandocs/Humans/EPAR/prepandrix/prepandrix.
htm
http://www.emea.europa.eu/humandocs/Humans/EPAR/h5n1/h5n1.htm

============================================
Summary/Conclusion:

Let's see. Adjuvanated, bird flu + swine flu combination, where the swine flu can become more virulent on account of the presence of the bird flu?

Um... Fuck no?

Hehe, DT is probably going to tear me apart for saying that. I admit that I don't know much about vaccines, but that just sounds bad to me!

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 3:50 AM

Byte,

Nah, I'm going to agree with you. Combo vaccines are a menace. They're also generally primitive blood derived vaccine, an excellent vector for spreading silent parter diseases.

It's not reaching too far to say that AIDS is intentionally spread this way. It was in Russia and Africa, so why not Europe. I have to say something, but I'm not going to say it here, cause I ain't as dumb as some folk.

But yeah, you're spot on on this one.

When I was defending Gardasil, I was defending only the research behind Gardasil. It's important to not become "anti-science" in all of this skepticism tending paranoia. Yes, sure, there's a time to be paranoid: When they really *are* out to get you. But still, you want to be on the side of science, if for no better reason than to make sure that science is on the side of you.

I think synthetic antigens are a decent approach to stemming disease, but never to be given to people who already have them, esp. in the doses gardasil was administered in, this causes the side effects Frem posted, and it doesn't take a genius to predict that exact result, it's actually somewhat intuitive.

But vaccine mania is insane. Maybe you missed my earlier post where I detailed this one:

1. Stir up panic over potential epidemic
2. Give (more) swine/bird flu vaccine.
3. Create (more) cases as a side effect.
4. Repeat.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 3:55 AM

I saw that, and was actually confused because I remember before that you were saying that the Gardasil vaccine is based on sound science. But your list of the cycle of the vaccine scare, in application to the topic of the swine flu, seemed like a contradiction of your position.

So thanks for explaining. :)

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 4:41 AM

I also join the chorus in saying that the topic Bill is total bullcrap.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 6:30 AM

Frem, think I found the article you're referring to about the Mexico swine flu outbreak.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

From what I can tell, the bird flu vaccine got out, mixed with the swine flu circulating, and mutated? Or something else?

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 12:49 PM

~Myte~

Quote:
I saw that, and was actually confused because I remember before that you were saying that the Gardasil vaccine is based on sound science. But your list of the cycle of the vaccine scare, in application to the topic of the swine flu, seemed like a contradiction of your position.

So thanks for explaining. :)

Actually, gardasil can't fit this model, because it's a synthetic, and you can't get a disease from a synthetic protein, any more than a decoy duck can fly. Might look like a duck, but there are no duck parts inside, user serviceable or otherwise.

Oh, and for anyone paying attention, that last is flavor text, I'll post a contrary editing example

Just for editing

Quote:
I said:
When I was defending Gardasil, I was defending only the research behind Gardasil. It's important to not become "anti-science" in all of this skepticism tending paranoia. Yes, sure, there's a time to be paranoid: When they really *are* out to get you. But still, you want to be on the side of science, if for no better reason than to make sure that science is on the side of you.

I think synthetic antigens are a decent approach to stemming disease, but never to be given to people who already have them, esp. in the doses gardasil was administered in, this causes the side effects Frem posted, and it doesn't take a genius to predict that exact result, it's actually somewhat intuitive.

This edit only saved 40 words, but with intentionally more flavor:

Quote:
I could've said:
Jes defending the research behind Gardasil. In this skepticism tending paranoia, gotta be careful not to become anti-science, so as to make sure science is on the side of you... It's OK to be paranoid when they really *are* out to get you.

Synthetic antigens are a decent approach, provided that ain't given to folk who already got 'em, esp. in doses gardasil was admin'd, hence the side effects Frem posted, and it don't take a genius to predict that exact result.

The flavor doesn't help the edit, but need not be sacrificed. Linux is still unhappy that "flavor" has no "u"

The noise % increases with length:
Typical 40 word post could usually be knocked down to 28 or so, but a 1400 word monster could prolly be slammed into 400 with no info-loss.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, September 7, 2009 3:18 PM

Well hell, a virus is crystalline in structure, right ?

Why not give it the crystal entity treatment, focused sonics ?

From what I can tell not a lotta research has been done, most of that is old, and *I* sure can't make heads or tails of the results...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=20&url=http%3A%2F%
2Faem.asm.org%2Fcgi%2Freprint%2F28%2F6%2F1030.pdf&ei=5q_6SeWmN5H4MKSU5ccE&rct=j&q=sonic+treatment+of+virus&usg=AFQjCNGsvwGpt7Lm8iB46KbQm_OSlj6X0g

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=19&url=http%3A%2F%
2Fvir.sgmjournals.org%2Fcgi%2Freprint%2F8%2F1%2F43.pdf&ei=5q_6SeWmN5H4MKSU5ccE&rct=j&q=sonic+treatment+of+virus&usg=AFQjCNED3TEdnTq8ASPaf-t2Lt5p8uBg3A

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A%2F%2
Fwww.jgp.org%2Fcgi%2Freprint%2F35%2F4%2F657.pdf&ei=TbL6Sf6cFo-gMtP3vbgE&rct=j&q=sonic+treatment+of+virus+research&usg=AFQjCNGrI_lAeYTlmUgaYlKvbz1jiPO48A

Of course, I just have to share the visual image this brings to mind - kind of like an MRI machine, stick em in, set the timer, turn it on, click click ding, just like pop-tarts, all better now...

We have GOT to find a better way to do this stuff, one of the worst problems of our society is how we have destructively driven out creativity and radically different thinking, leading us to a stagnation and decline.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Well hell, a virus is crystalline in structure, right ?

No, sorry, it's not. A virus is a sulfur-based biochemical colloid structure with a phophate-hydrocarbon code base. sonic disruption isn't going to help any more than so called electrotherapy. There have been some attempts at broad attacks on sulfur, but I think that this is a war best fought on the front lines. These panacea ideas retreat closer to chemo and radiation, which is a step back.

There are some things you can do with sound though, against silicate and calcium deposits, possibly even cholesterol build-ups.