Okay, Afghanistan.
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 02:17
VIEWED: 2185
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I started this in another post, but maybe I can give you a bit of insight, so I'll finish here. I lived there, back in ''58-'61. It's a land you of which you cannot conceive.
The homes of the poor (by far the majority) are made of mud walls...mud and straw. Roofs are flat, so they grow grass in Spring and sheep graze on them. When the brief rains come, they wash away the houses. Heat you can't conceive of in Summer, and shamals--dust storms that will kill--six foot snows in Winter.
The gutters, called "jeuey ditches"? Upstream a horse pissing; downstream a woman washing clothes, a child drinking. The childhood death rate is incredible. When we were there, every female over the age of 13 wore a chadri (the head-to-toes veil you may have seen pictures of, or on the train in FF's "Train Job"). No woman could be seen outside without one. In their homes, women were essentially slaves--couldn't be seen without chadri by any male but close relatives. Men ate together in one room; women served them then ate after them in another.
Women, children really, usually married around the age of 13 to men in their forties--the lifespan is maybe 3/5ths of ours for the poor. This was because it's so poor, a man couldn't afford a wife until mid-life, and the childhood birth rate was so bad a woman had to start early to have any survive.
Everyone had servants--you had to, only a few American women ventured forth, and we got a lot of attention when we did. I was 9-11, so I roamed freely in the bazaars, but my mother (bitch that she was in many other ways) had balls; she did her own shopping. The reason most didn't was that you went to the butcher's stall, pointed to what cut of meat you wanted, and he shooed the flies off it before whacking it off for you. Melons abounded, but you had to choose carefully, as the farmers would inject water (remember those jeuey ditches?) to make them larger.
They're a magnificent people--still are I know from friends I still have. Generous to a fault, but proud, strong and sneaky as hell if they don't respect you. Driving our jeep one Winter, it got stuck in the mud in a village. Nobody in sight as we drove through initially, but the minute the jeep got stuck, suddenly we were surrounded by Afghan men, who cheerfully picked up the jeep and put it on the road, laughing "Daiwana Americans" ("crazy Americans"--anyone trying to travel the roads in Winter in anything but a horse-drawn carriage or a donkey WAS crazy).
The shah--there was a shah back then--was a despot, yes, but as I said elsewhere, he wanted to bring the country into the twentieth century, and he knew he was "monarch" mostly in name...the tribal leaders in the villages were the real power. He removed the chadri while we were there--causing bloody riots in Kandahar (the second city, in the South, ever a stronghold of the mullahs, explaining why the Taliban is still so strong there). My mom was involved; she got three of the pattern companies in America to send patterns, and held sewing classes for the Afghan women. They had a fashion show to show off what they'd done (attended of course only by females), and mom got death threats but managed to do it anyway.
Islam has such a strong hold for a good reason. Life was unbelievably hard, and at its best only transitory--in such situations, the afterlife is everything and religions are very, VERY strong. The mullahs ruled supreme, and punishments were extremely harsh. For women especially. The concept of Insh'allah (got's will) exists so strongly because how else do you explain living like that except tha it be the will of some Higher Power for some unknown purpose?
We were there because my dad worked for Pan Am; they gave the Afghans their old DC-3s to start Ariana Afghan Airways (which still exists). The Afghan mentality regarding maintenance was to fly the plane until it fell down in the desert (literally), then walk away. Afghans brought to America to be trained as engineers refused to go home (do you blame them?), so dad and others were sent to train Afghans
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Couple questions
We armed the Taliban? I thought we armed the mujahideen and the northern alliances, but just what i recall. Not that it matters
I heard that low life expectancy was due to high drug use and civil war. any thoughts?
I know that rural villagers in africa seem to have a higher life expectancy than the urban population, wars, diseases, cut that down a lot. It seems the rural farming life overall is a pretty decent one, here as everywhere, so I have to guess that it's hitting them somewhere that's else.
Just thinking
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Mujahideen forces were unable to defeat Soviet forces during much of the war, however, the mujahideen won when the Soviet Union pulled troops out of Afghanistan in 1989, when they overtook many of Afghanistans cities from the Federal Government, followed by the fall of the Mohammad Najibullah regime in 1992. However, the mujahideen did not establish a united government, and many of the larger mujahideen groups began to fight each other over the power in Kabul. After several years of devastating infighting, a village mullah organized a radical splinter group of the mujahideen, a new armed movement with the backing of Pakistan. This movement became known as the Taliban.
Essentially the mujahideen were the acorn from which the Taliban grew. We supported the first; now we're fighting the second.
Quote:No, they had low life expectancy and a high childhood death rate long before either. Afghanistan has produced hashish for centuries--in fact Black Afghan was at one time sold with the gold seal of the royal family stamped on it. The poppies are a relatively new development, and came about because what farming there was became almost impossible due to the devastation of the wars, as did employment of other kinds, so it became a high-yield financial crop.
I heard that low life expectancy was due to high drug use and civil war. any thoughts?
And there's been no essential "civil war"--the current wars have been mostly against the Russians and now us, with battles between the Taliban and mujahideen and Al Qaeda as well. There have always been battles between tribes, but no "civil war" per se within the country as a whole.
Africa is for the most part a fertile country; Afghanistan is desert and baren mountains except for places humans have taken up habitation and tried to scratch out a living. There's a HUGE difference between the two, as far as farming and survival. The Afghans live better than what I've seen on TV of the desert-dwellers in Africa, but aside from a few places, it's that way all over, whereas Africa is, far as I know, largely "farmable" and has far more water, certainly. Afghanistan is land-locked, and dry for most of the year.
That's mostly the countryside in Afghanistan
These are typical dwellings in a village. Kabul is much more modern, but the villages are poor--the buildings are made of straw and mud.
Surprisingly, Afghanistan comes in second for shortest lifespan AFTER Africa...not sure why that is. I'm not sure which population would have a longer lifespan, but I would guess those in the cities fared better...life in the villages was as rudimentary as human survival permited for the most part.
"In Afghanistan, men and women live on average to 41 and 42 years respectively, according to the WHO." It doesn't break it down to urban v. rural. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/05/21/life-expectancy-who.html
"Once you get out of Africa, the next worst country for life expectancy is Afghanistan. The citizens of Afghanistan face near-epidemic levels of disease including life-threatening diarrhea, typhoid, malaria, hepatitis and rabies. Taken together, these factors mean that every Afghani can look forward to a hardy 42.9 years of misery before shuffling off this mortal coil." http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/life_expectancy/
I hate that, by the way. The PEOPLE are Afghans, the CURRENCY is the Afghani. Just a pet peeve I hear all the time and it makes me cringe.
The CIA puts average life expectancy estimations (2009) at total population: 44.64 years; male: 44.47 years; female: 44.81 years. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/210
2.html
Are you starting to get a bit of a picture? Can you conceive of living a life like that?
________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts
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NIKI2, who's got. Anyhoo you might be a bleeding heart but to go into any country with pushing an American view isn't gonna work like your mom. I get irritated when English people talk crap about America in the US. Go home. Now you just described any mexican border town. What I have found out in my travels is you can not help people unless they help themselves. The whole flying the plane till it crashes. Well just go to Africa after the peace corps leaves once every thing breaks they go back to getting water out of streams. The world is ancient and America is just an experiment. America's path to get rid of jobs and still feed the world will come to an end with in 50 years. Talking with Brits and American Troopers in that war have told me how small the people are and how gay the dudes are. It is an ancient intersection between waring nations. And I just don't think you can really get much done over there.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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Nice personal view Niki2, thanks.
I would guess malaria and AIDS would be why African life expectancy is lower.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
The world is ancient and America is just an experiment.
Keep travelling... I like the US but it is not the world's only civilised country, nor the pinnacle of human civilisation as we know it.
Heads should roll
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Where did she bad mouth the US anywhere? Maybe I just missed it, but I really think that wasn't the point of her posting this.
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KPO, I disagree with that. Just look at the hygiene in France. England is still a ghetto. I might find Istanbul or Haifa interesting but I don't want to live there. And I don't try to give the cultures I've met my way of thinking. I just want them to stay there if their not gonna change coming here. Life is cheap outside the USA. Even though students get crap filled in their head by the educators who don't live in the real world who will tell them it's all wonderful. Nations that once was doesn't mean they have it today going on. Quality of life and opportunity is still in America. I've known people who go overseas with the great white hunter attitude that doesn't cut it. So they feel important. I traveled enough over seas there is to much in the US to see and do. Staying in a Hilton or a tour bus isn't what I consider traveling. That is seeing the sights.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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Pirate, I've seen enough of you to "get" your attitudes, so I won't address most of what you wrote. As to America "feeding the world", that's a joke. You throw away enough food every day to feed a lot of people in developing nations, and don't even notice it. As to the REAL efforts to bring medicine, cleanliness and education to poorer nations--it's been going on far longer than 50 years and won't stop in the next 50. There are at least enough Americans who can manage empathy with other humans and who understand how the REAL world is that they'll continue trying.
So you've heard from troopers how vile the Afghans are, eh? Gee, I wonder why they get that impression. Ask someone who's lived there; ask even a lot of the troopers who I'VE heard in interviews who are impressed with them. Rural villages haven't changed much, no--but I've seen pictures of Kabul, I'm still in touch with a website full of people who were students there when I was and beyond...the changes have been dramatic, very dramatic, and they've continued since the Russians left and continue today, and will after we leave.
No, bringing a nation that was ignored by the world and still firmly in the throes of the time of Christ isn't easy and can't be done in a hundred years, but yes, they've progressed enormously given that and continue to move forward. They didn't GO BACK to the chadri, it was forced on them. They didn't GO BACK to jeuey ditches.
When we drove into Kabul from the airplane, mom hollered "my gawd, it's Mary, Joseph and Jesus!" We were passing a man leading a donkey with a woman and child sitting on it. They WERE our concept of Mary, Joesph and Jesus. In the cities, that's how far they've come.
When I was there, yes, it was and still is a "buffer state". Russia wanted it, so did we. Russia would give them a hospital; we'd counter with an airport. Russia would give them a REAL road (which ironically, led to Russia); we'd give them a grain siloh. Ariana Afghan Airways continues to this day, planes don't fall down in the desert anymore...before, they lived the way they'd always lived; now, those that can be part of the modern world have adapted and progress continues, if only other countries would stop bombing it back to the stone ages, it would continue. It will despite the wars, wait and see.
Women are doctors now, and educators and more. Afghans have evacuated and there's a large number of them here in California. Some go to universities here and DO return now, to better the country. They've adapted; they speak lovingly of their homeland, but they're Americans and they adapt to our culture. There are enclaves, like any dispossesed civilization, which practice the old ways and do things I abhor; but that was true of Americans who lived there, too, it's human nature.
As to "gay dudes", you sicken me. Yes, because of their physical characteristics, it's long been said that on the whole, Afghan men are prettier than Afghan women. That doesn't make them gay, and by the way, watch out, your homophobia is showing a bit. In a country where women were nothing but ghosts walking around in shrouds it's inevitable, but there are no more homosexuals there than here proportionately. Yeah, if one just looks at people and doesn't bother to get to know them, one could come to that conclusion. It's bullshit.
The rural parts of Afghanistan are cut off from civilization, roads are hard to keep going in a desert. You wouldn't last ten minutes there.
I didn't stay in hotels, and the only tour bus I've ever been on was in Paris. I've ridden Afghans (horses) and camels, I traveled that country in a jeep and stayed in "hotels" that were little more than rooms with charpois (a bed made of woven straw)...I've climbed the famous statue of Buddha careved out of a mountain in Bamyan which the Taliban blew to smithereens, and wandered it's caves of blackened ceilings where the buddhist monks hid from Ghengis Khan. America knows nothing of a land of such antiquity. You know nothing of that country, so your opinion is of no value to
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Well spoken, Niki.
I never posted in quite this much detail cause, well, you *know* what the response from your average amurrrikan is gonna be, well enough.
*eyeroll*
But as a supporter of RAWA I knew most of this already, especially since I have a lot of Pashtun friends in Dearborn, one of the largest arab-american communities in the US, some of whom worked at the same cab companies I did.
RAWA is seriously pissed at us, and I don't blame them - one thing I am still holding a grudge about is that one of their better english speakers, a nice lady who sent me a beautifully drawn breaking-the-chains poster, wound up a casualty of "collateral damage" from our bombing.
The worst of it is that while I have been passing them office and photographic equipment, and have to do so in a very roundabout fashion so that if/when they get named "terrorists" by the State Dept no one is gonna come hunting MY head about it - all the photo evidence in the world won't make anyone give a shit, sadly.
I'd just as soon ship em rifles, but I respect the way they wanna do things enough to support it even if I don't think they're playin hardball enough.
It's SOMETHING, and that's a whole damn lot better than nothing.
-Frem
http://www.rawa.org/index.php
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