not PN-- Mass. cops arrest ( black) Harvard professor in his own house

POSTED BY: NewOldBrownCoat
UPDATED: Thursday, August 20, 2009 03:17
VIEWED: 10813
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NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:21 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html

don't know what else you need to say about the progress of racial relations in America.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:30 PM

How about...

the truth?

Neighbors saw 2 men trying to jimmy the door open. They, the neighbors, called the police to try and protect their neighbors home.

The police arrive, the "professor" goes all ghetto, (not to mention political, and very Al Sharpton-ish) and gets his sorry ass busted.

(How much do you want to bet that his job was...oh, say...an Action in the Affirmative?)

This could have been resolved with, "No officers, I live here. Here is my ID proving that I do, and thanks for your time, and for making sure that my place was not broken into."

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:45 PM

Wulfie, I don't know what news accounts YOU read, but the ones I saw said that he DID show them his ID, he DID tell them he lived there - which matched what his ID said was his address, and THEN he went ballistic on the cops, as would I if it were me in that situation.

Of course, I likely wouldn't be in that situation, because I'm white, and the cops would look at my ID and leave me alone, since they'd of course believe me...

And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

I'm a fan of not mentioning the Officer's Mother.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:23 PM

Whoah, Kwick.

From the reports I read... this guy refused to come out, and when he did he refused to show his ID. He then berated the cops, and then told them to arrest him.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_dis
orderly

Got no problem with ANYONE standing up for their rights.

But thats not what this guy did. He wanted to make himself famous...

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

(How much do you want to bet that his job was...oh, say...an Action in the Affirmative?)

found this in that story linked above.

"Gates joined the Harvard faculty in 1991 and holds one of 20 prestigious "university professors" positions at the school. He also was host of "African American Lives," a PBS show about the family histories of prominent U.S. blacks, and was named by Time magazine as one of the 25 most influential Americans in 1997."

Also, the story says a lot about " the neighbors." They don't even recognize one of their own neighbors. Like, " Hey, The Professor is trying to knock his door open. Wonder if there's something wrong with it? Wonder if he needs my help some way?"
No, just, " oh my God , there are BLACK MEN ( And ya wanta bet that's not what they called them? ) busting open somebody's door over there. Better call the cops."

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

Seems like the only appropriate response for a black man is, " Yassur, Massa PO-LICE, I stan' up for y'all, turn 'round an' drop ma pants so y'all can shove yo' night stick right up my black booty, jest please don' shoot me, 'cuz I'se a GOOD NIGGA."

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

I'm a fan of not mentioning the Officer's Mother.

Then why did you bring her up? Nothing I've seen ANYWHERE had said anything about anyone "mentioning the officer's mother".

And Wulfie?

I don't think the guy's trying to get famous - he's one of the top scholars in the nation on the subject of African-American studies. He heads up the school in such studies and racial relations at Harvard, so I *think* he's pretty damned famous within his community.

According to the coverage I've seen and read, an officer came to the door and asked him to come outside. He refused and asked for the officer's name and badge number - all things which he is well within his rights to do since he lives there. In fact, leaving his house and going outside to talk to the officer would be the WRONG thing to do, since you now have lost your ability to demand that the cop produce either a warrant or show reasonable cause for making such a demand.

Sorry, but you come to my house without anything better than "someone said...", and I'm not coming out, and you're not coming in.

I note for the record that the police department has called the incident "regrettable and unfortunate", and has apologized to Gates, according to some sources. I have to ask, when was the last time you saw the police department ANYWHERE take such action when they were completely in the right?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

Seems like the only appropriate response for a black man is, " Yassur, Massa PO-LICE, I stan' up for y'all, turn 'round an' drop ma pants so y'all can shove yo' night stick right up my black booty, jest please don' shoot me, 'cuz I'se a GOOD NIGGA."

Sadly, that's about the truth of it.

And I know Wulfie SAYS he's not a racist, but note that his first instinct when hearing that a black man actually had a job was to say it must be an affirmative action job.

THAT says an awful lot about the state of race relations in this country, sadly.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I note for the record that the police department has called the incident "regrettable and unfortunate", and has apologized to Gates, according to some sources. I have to ask, when was the last time you saw the police department ANYWHERE take such action when they were completely in the right?

Several sources indicate that charges have been dropped, the local pols and DA's office are apologizing, the ACLU is investigating, and I saw a reference to the fact that, YES!, AL SHARPTON!! is coming to town. Betcha there's gonna be some job vacancies in the Cambridge PD real soon, and as quick as the lawsuits get filed, a big, but secret, financial settlement.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And since when do you consider standing up for your rights "going all ghetto"? I thought you were a fan of standing up for one's rights! I guess that view changes when it's black folk doing it, eh?

I'm a fan of not mentioning the Officer's Mother.

Then why did you bring her up? Nothing I've seen ANYWHERE had said anything about anyone "mentioning the officer's mother".

The report I saw stated that the Officer asked Gates to step out of his house. Gates replied with something along the lines of 'I'll step outside to see your Mother'.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:11 PM

Tis a funny thing about Sharpton.

Sure, he's a grandstanding, race-baiting, obnoxious jerk - I'll be the first in line to admit it...

But the man has cred with me, and got it the ONLY way you can - by standing and delivering.

That said I pointed out to him rather personally last month the stupidity of standing up for only one race, culture, creed, religion, sex, etc - cause all that's doin is stepping on one faction to elevate another and adds to the divisiveness, if yer gonna fight for human rights, fight for HUMAN rights, across the board, to do any less isn't helping the situation.

His response was something on the order of "actually I know that, but I like kickin whitey in the chops too much you old hillbilly!"

That said, if the threat of having Sharpton all up in their ass is a discouragement to police roughing up black folk, I would say that's a positive thing despite it's flaws.

Guy's a jackass, but I don't rank him as evil.

-F

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:13 PM

Quote:
The report I saw stated that the Officer asked Gates to step out of his house. Gates replied with something along the lines of 'I'll step outside to see your Mother'.

"The only difference between a police report and any other work of fiction is that professional writers have a better editor."
-Ofc Corley, Gennessee County PD.

-F

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:18 PM

re: Professor Gates.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/dyson.police/index.html

" Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr. is simply the most powerful and influential black scholar in our nation's history.

He received a doctorate at Cambridge University long before the culture wars became au courant; he was among the first group of figures to receive a MacArthur "Genius Award" Fellowship; he wrote the finest work of literary criticism in a generation with "Signifying Monkey"; he was named by Time magazine as one of the "25 Most Influential Americans"; he has a boatload of honorary degrees; and he has been a ubiquitous media presence and thoughtful interpreter of race and culture for a quarter-century."

from Wikipedia:
" Gates has been the recipient of nearly 50 honorary degrees and numerous academic and social action awards. He was named a MacArthur Fellow in 1981 and was listed in Time among its “25 Most Influential Americans” in 1997. On October 23, 2006, Gates was appointed the Alphonse Fletcher Jr. University Professor at Harvard University. In January 2008, he co-founded The Root, a website dedicated to African-American perspectives published by The Washington Post Company. Gates currently chairs the Fletcher Foundation, and is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He is on the boards of many notable institutions including the New York Public Library, Jazz at Lincoln Center, the Aspen Institute, the Brookings Institution, the Studio Museum of Harlem, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, HEAF (the Harlem Educational Activities Fund), and the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences, located in Stanford, California.[2]

In 2002 the National Endowment for the Humanities selected Gates for the Jefferson Lecture, the U.S. federal government's highest honor for achievement in the humanities.[13] Gates' lecture was entitled "Mister Jefferson and the Trials of Phillis Wheatley"[14] and was the basis for his book The Trials of Phillis Wheatley.[15]

In 2006, Gates was inducted into the Sons of the American Revolution after he traced his lineage back to John Redman, a Free Negro who fought in the Revolutionary War.[16]"

Obviously some kind of " shiftless ne'er-do-well", or at least a "multiple-count Affirmative Action hire." Probably one of those " Ivory Tower intellectual elitists," too. Not to mention , " uppity"...

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:19 PM

He tried to open the front door but the door was jammed shut, so he walked to the back door of his house and used his key, which opened the door, and he went inside his own home.

When cops arrived he had no duty to open the door nor speak to them nor come out.

Cops went psycho and he yelled at them about his constitutional rights.

Ironically the Prof just returned from speaking in Commie china. I'm of the opinion he deserved what he got from the US Police State, as punishment for going to Commie china to help them overthrow USA for the NWO.

Rule 1: Never speak to police without a hidden audio recorder!

Rule 2: Never speak to police!

Rule 3: Never open your door for police!

Rule 4: STFU and hide in your own castle, don't let them see you! But if you do make voluntary contact, you must speak your name and address, or hand it to them in your own handwriting, no ID required.

Dumb professor!

"Race" has nothing to do with it, cops do this to everybody. When cops are out of line yellign illegal orders, every person has the 1st amendment right to tell a cop "FU" to his face, using any and all profanities, according to US Supreme Court. Just dont cuss a judge in court!

By dismissing all charges immediately, prof can easily sue and win for false arrest and false imprisonment, since statute of limitations is 1 year from date of arrest plus 3 days to arraignment. That's why prosecutors almost never dismiss against innocent people, since that opens the door for suing police.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
The report I saw stated that the Officer asked Gates to step out of his house. Gates replied with something along the lines of 'I'll step outside to see your Mother'.

"The only difference between a police report and any other work of fiction is that professional writers have a better editor."
-Ofc Corley, Gennessee County PD.

All police baaaad, all citizens gooood. All police lie, all citizens tell the truth. Repeat mantra as necessary.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

All police baaaad, all citizens gooood. All police lie, all citizens tell the truth. Repeat mantra as necessary.

Which is apparently quite different from YOUR personal mantra:

"All black people baaaaad, all police gooood. All black people steal and lie, all police tell the truth."

Repeat as necessary.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

All police baaaad, all citizens gooood. All police lie, all citizens tell the truth. Repeat mantra as necessary.

Which is apparently quite different from YOUR personal mantra:

"All black people baaaaad, all police gooood. All black people steal and lie, all police tell the truth."

Repeat as necessary.

You are about as dense as they come, aren't you?
Where you got that I am some sort of racist from my posts in this thread is way beyond me.

Do you think Police never wrongfully arrest white people? How about Mexicans or Asians? Have you ever seen a black police officer? Are they all racists as well?

How many calls do police respond to every day in every city? How many mistakes are made? What percentage of calls responded to go bad? They are human like you (perhaps) and me. All humans make mistakes, it's a fact of life.

I've discussed this very thing with Frem before. Do a few rotten apples spoil the bunch? Why take away from the good work done by police and paint them all as crooks and liars?
Are all surgeons bad if one patient dies on one surgeons operating table? Are all warehouse workers incompetant if one guy messes up one order?

One can question the above linked story and the typical police bad posts that followed without being a racist or authoritarian oneself.

And in closing, I don't expect an apology because I do not think you are a big enough man to give me one. I do remain hopeful though.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:40 PM

Quote:

I've discussed this very thing with Frem before. Do a few rotten apples spoil the bunch? Why take away from the good work done by police and paint them all as crooks and liars?
Are all surgeons bad if one patient dies on one surgeons [sic] operating table? Are all warehouse workers incompetant [sic] if one guy messes up one order?

If one Muslim hijacks a plane, does that make them ALL terrorists?

Quote:

And in closing, I don't expect an apology... I do remain hopeful though.

Well, keep on chasing that dream! Let me know how that works out for ya.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:39 PM

Did a "few rotten apples" make the SS bad guys, since they were only following the orders of their lawful elected government in the hopes of keeping order ?

Fuck that, they were soldiers of evil no matter their personal morality because of the end result of the cause they served - so too are police, every bit the "standing army" enforcing the 'kings law' that our founders warned us of.

Soldiers of Evil
http://www.freedomradio.us/Joomla/index.php/articles-by-brent-johnson/
1668-soldiers-of-evil

ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL?
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

I refer you specifically to section 722 of the latter.

It isn't a "few bad apples" it's a culture of universal corruption serving a vile purpose and has been ever since the peace officer invested with the safety and protection of the community became the police officer assigned to law enforcement.

Never for a moment forget, when discussing this with me, that site three hired us in part to protect them FROM the goddamn local police.

Keep that *firmly* in mind when you try to tell me they're the good guys.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Where you got that I am some sort of racist from my posts in this thread is way beyond me.

No, you are not a racist. You are a purplebelly. There IS a difference.

The idea that force is the way to solve all verbal disputes is authoritarian. The idea that police should have the power they have to harass a man at his own home for (allegedly) insulting their Mom is totalitarian. That non-violent, non-resisting alleged offenders can be handcuffed in the first place is medieval.

BDM, I am placing a gag order on you now- do not respond, or you will be legally silenced.

The laughing Chrisisall

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If one Muslim hijacks a plane, does that make them ALL terrorists?

Of course not.
Does one guy questioning the status quo of this thread make him an evil 'neo-con' in your books? Don't be throwin' around your own sweeping generalizations thinking your shit don't stink.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
And in closing, I don't expect an apology... I do remain hopeful though.

Well, keep on chasing that dream! Let me know how that works out for ya.

Wow, thanks for not proving me wrong.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The idea that force is the way to solve all verbal disputes is authoritarian. The idea that police should have the power they have to harass a man at his own home for (allegedly) refusing to comply with their reasonable request is anarchistic.

There, changed that for you. Who knows, unless you were there, my scenario could be just as true as yours.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That non-violent, non-resisting alleged offenders can be handcuffed in the first place is medieval.

What constitutes resisting in your world?
We have empowered the police to do the job they do on our behalf. If you were pulled over by an officer and you refused to get out of your car, would that be considered resisting?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
BDM, I am placing a gag order on you now- do not respond, or you will be legally silenced.

How very un-authoritarian of you Mr. KIA.

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:46 AM

Quote:

What constitutes resisting in your world?
We have empowered the police to do the job they do on our behalf. If you were pulled over by an officer and you refused to get out of your car, would that be considered resisting?

What constitutes "resisting" in YOUR world?

If a cop comes to YOUR house, orders YOU out of YOUR house, demands that YOU show YOUR identification, refuses to identify himself by either name or badge number, do you call THAT "resisting"?

According to the United States Constitution's Fourth Amendment,

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This was a man in his own home. Can you please point me to the cop's valid warrant?

Last time I checked with the Supreme Court, asking for name and badge number wasn't classified as "resisting". Neither was asking such troubling questions of the police as "Why? Because I'm a black man in America?"

Is that what YOU call "resisting"?

Heck, I guess the cop should've just shot him, eh?

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What constitutes "resisting" in YOUR world?

If a cop comes to YOUR house, orders YOU out of YOUR house, demands that YOU show YOUR identification, refuses to identify himself by either name or badge number, do you call THAT "resisting"?

Why not comply, show him the I.D. and send him on his way?
Is everyone supposed to know who Gates is? Is the officer supposed to just take him at his word? Shouldn't the officer fully investigate the break and enter call?
Besides, doesn't the linked article state quite clearly that the officer identified himself and his purpose there? Why are you so quick to take Gates' word over the Officer's?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to the United States Constitution's Fourth Amendment,

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What does unreasonable mean in your world?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
This was a man in his own home. Can you please point me to the cop's valid warrant?

Did the Officer enter the house? Do Officers need a warrant to ask for someone's I.D.?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Last time I checked with the Supreme Court, asking for name and badge number wasn't classified as "resisting". Neither was asking such troubling questions of the police as "Why? Because I'm a black man in America?"

So it was Gates who brought up race first, funny that. Do you think it is wise to be flippant in that situation? Is that a black officer I saw in the picture accompanying the article? Too many questions and not enough answers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Heck, I guess the cop should've just shot him, eh?

Such a drama queen.

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:16 AM

Quote:

What does unreasonable mean in your world?

What does "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects" mean in YOUR world?

Quote:
Why not comply, show him the I.D. and send him on his way?

Why couldn't the cop comply, give the homeowner his name and badge number, and accept that he lived there and WASN'T a burglar, and just go on his way?

Quote:

Did the Officer enter the house? Do Officers need a warrant to ask for someone's I.D.?

Did the officer enter the house? I don't know; do you? Does he need a warrant to ask for someone's I.D.? He does if they're in their house.

Quote:
Why are you so quick to take Gates' word over the Officer's?

Why are YOU so quick to take the officer's word over Gates's? Is it because Gates is black?

Quote:
Do you think it is wise to be flippant in that situation?

I think it's somewhat telling that you find a black man questioning authority to be "flippant". I'm surprised you haven't called him "uppity" yet. Someone shows up at MY house without a warrant or a valid reason and starts making demands that I come outside and prove who I am and where I live, I'm going to be a lot more than "flippant" with him. Funny that you don't think we have the right to ask questions of the police, even though THEY are supposed to work for US.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why are YOU so quick to take the officer's word over Gates's? Is it because Gates is black?

I see you are still strawmanning my position. Either you have run out of other arguments or that is your M.O.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I think it's somewhat telling that you find a black man questioning authority to be "flippant". I'm surprised you haven't called him "uppity" yet.

I was saying some of the same things regarding the guy that got tasered at the University of Florida. What color was his skin again?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Someone shows up at MY house without a warrant or a valid reason and starts making demands that I come outside and prove who I am and where I live, I'm going to be a lot more than "flippant" with him.

I wonder if you would make the news. My guess is probably not. Now tell me, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Funny that you don't think we have the right to ask questions of the police, even though THEY are supposed to work for US.

Again with the strawman. I do think that is the only method of debate you a fluent in.
I never said he didn't have the right to ask questions. I am simply trying to get across that in the heat of the moment, do as you are asked to avoid situations like these.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I am simply trying to get across that in the heat of the moment

See, "Heat of the moment" is not something TRAINED POLICE officers should be under the influence of. When confronted by five muggers trying to relieve me of my bicycle, I didn't get MAD, I acted in an emotionless, calculating way, and drove the idiots off with my simple directness. Is it asking too much for a police force to be as good as an unarmed citizen?

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:12 AM

Quote:
I do think that is the only method of debate you a fluent in.

Well, it DOES seem that only one of us is fluent...

Quote:
I am simply trying to get across that in the heat of the moment, do as you are asked to avoid situations like these.

Thing is, there was no need for there to BE a "heat of the moment", if the cop had just calmed himself the fuck down and realized that he was hassling the fucking HOMEOWNER!

And what you REALLY mean is, when a cop TELLS you to do something, DO AS YOU'RE TOLD and DON'T TALK BACK.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, there was no need for there to BE a "heat of the moment", if the cop had just calmed himself the fuck down and realized that he was hassling the fucking HOMEOWNER!

I'm sure you meant to say that if both the 'cop' and Gates had just calmed down, none of this would have happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And what you REALLY mean is, when a cop TELLS you to do something, DO AS YOU'RE TOLD and DON'T TALK BACK.

Seems like a pretty sure way of not geting arrested or even shot.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
See, "Heat of the moment" is not something TRAINED POLICE officers should be under the influence of. When confronted by five muggers trying to relieve me of my bicycle, I didn't get MAD, I acted in an emotionless, calculating way, and drove the idiots off with my simple directness. Is it asking too much for a police force to be as good as an unarmed citizen?

Your first mistake is to think that all people should think and act like you.
Your second mistake is to equate the actions of one or two officers with the whole force.

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:44 AM

Quote:

I'm sure you meant to say that if both the 'cop' and Gates had just calmed down, none of this would have happened.

I'm sure I didn't mean that at all, child, or I would have typed that. The cop was in the wrong here, and that's pretty evident in the reactions and words of the police and the city government. They badly overstepped their bounds and over-reached their authority, and they got caught out doing it. Remember, the cop is supposed to be trained in how to de-escalate the situation. Instead, he decided to view it as a dick-measuring contest and escalated the situation instead.

Your mistake is that you keep wanting to give the cops the authority, and then you don't expect them to have to live up to it. Sorry, but when you take the "higher standard", you have to rise to it. If you want my respect and want me to take your word for anything, you need to earn it. That goes for cops, too. I don't automatically assume that they're looking out for my best interests, any more than you assume that the federal government is always looking out for yours.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:00 AM

Quote:
We have empowered the police to do the job they do on our behalf.

What's this "we" shit, dude ?

And the idea that we should just bend knee and capitulate when the lords in blue are clearly in the wrong is idiot feudalism of the very same stripe that has landed us in a position where these badge bearing assholes are naught more than a mafia with official sanction to begin with.

Fucked if I think FEEDING the problem is a good idea.

-Frem

PS - Workin with what little Mikey left me here, cause he's been hoggin ALL the asswhup to hisself tonite, it seems.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
What's this "we" shit, dude ?

Society.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the idea that we should just bend knee and capitulate when the lords in blue are clearly in the wrong is idiot feudalism of the very same stripe that has landed us in a position where these badge bearing assholes are naught more than a mafia with official sanction to begin with.

Yes, Frem, that has been my whole point all along, sigh. Just bend over and take it from the 'cops'.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
PS - Workin with what little Mikey left me here, cause he's been hoggin ALL the asswhup to hisself tonite, it seems.

Which is why you felt the need to draw attention to it, I'm sure.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The cop was in the wrong here, and that's pretty evident in the reactions and words of the police and the city government. They badly overstepped their bounds and over-reached their authority, and they got caught out doing it. Remember, the cop is supposed to be trained in how to de-escalate the situation. Instead, he decided to view it as a dick-measuring contest and escalated the situation instead.

You are right. The Officer, as it turned out, was in the wrong.

Now imagine this. Say the Officer had asked Gates to step out on his porch and Gates did. Say the officer explained that he was responding to a burglary call at this residence. Say then Gates informed the Officer that it was indeed his place of residence. Say the Officer, who did not know Gates, than asked for proof of residence. Say Gates then provided this requested proof. Say the Officer then apologized for the mix up and none of us are the wiser. What is so un-constitutional or overly onerous about that?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Your mistake is that you keep wanting to give the cops the authority, and then you don't expect them to have to live up to it.

Your mistake is to assign your made up opinions to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sorry, but when you take the "higher standard", you have to rise to it. If you want my respect and want me to take your word for anything, you need to earn it. That goes for cops, too. I don't automatically assume that they're looking out for my best interests, any more than you assume that the federal government is always looking out for yours.

Since when was it guilty until proven innocent? And what does the federal government have to do with this discussion?

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:41 PM

BDN-

You presume that I am part of this society and/or a supporter of it.

I'm not.
In fact I happen to be in constant opposition to it, considering it an assembly line factory for sociopathy, reprehensible from a moral and ethical standpoint, and the primary roadblock to our continued social, moral, and emotional development, I've said as much for as long as anyone here has known.

As for bending knee - like it or not, to automatically defer to some agent of the state when they are clearly in the wrong is an act that does give off the aroma of feudalism, just because I choose to phrase it in an obnoxious way makes it no less true.

And since you were imho, floating a bad concept based on an idea that is not only demonstrably false, but in fact anti-democratic, hell yes I got some level of amusement from watching someone bust your chops about it.

Remember I happen to be a staunch defender of the Peelian Principles of Policing, in which the officer is considered no different than any other member of society and given no more credence or deference than any other member of the public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

In short, if you wouldn't take that crap from a fellow citizen, you shouldn't take it from a cop, neither - and you really should hold them to a HIGHER standard given they have, or should have, proper training.

I also note that in your latter post you have mistakenly attributed two of mikeys statements to me, and if I was half the asshole you take me for I'd be running that ball for the end zone, now wouldn't I ?

But it's an honest mistake, and gets the benefit of the doubt - not the least of which because mikey and myself do make similar arguments at times.
(and indeed, you fixed it in between me writing this and posting it, see ? )

And as a final note, one of the reasons I give the word of police less credibility than a citizens, is because of incidents like this.

NEVER Believe Uncorroborated Police Testimony
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/030636.html

The isolated incident excuse falls flat in light of the evidence, and twenty some years of empirical assessment reveals a culture of corruption, which happens to be irredeemable due to it's very nature being abusive.

Not sure if you were around when I pointed out exactly WHAT was going to happen if they gave these goons in blue Tasers - but like much else, that went chapter and verse just like I called it, because regardless of the moral quality of each individual officer, as a collective, I see through the propaganda and understand what they truly are.

A mafia with perceived legitimacy and official support.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Your first mistake is to think that all people should think and act like you.

Okay. Gloves off. You ARE a stupid asshole, aren't you?
If I choose to behave in the best possible way to achieve a desired result, that's not "thinking like me", buttwipe.
I was just asking if paid professionals could do the same. If you want to tag correct, desirable or LEGALLY DEFINED police procedure with a particular mindset, go ahead.
Douchebag.

Not that I'm pissed or anything...

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:56 PM

Quote:
BDN wrote:

Now imagine this. Say the Officer had asked Gates to step out on his porch and Gates did. Say the officer explained that he was responding to a burglary call at this residence. Say then Gates informed the Officer that it was indeed his place of residence. Say the Officer, who did not know Gates, than asked for proof of residence. Say Gates then provided this requested proof. Say the Officer then apologized for the mix up and none of us are the wiser. What is so un-constitutional or overly onerous about that?

Just imagine. If it had gone that way, we'd likely never have heard a word about it.

The more I hear about this story, the more it sounds like the cop isn't so much a racist, as just an ASSHOLE. His gripe wasn't that Gates is black, but rather that Gates had the temerity to talk back to HIM, a POLICE OFFICER, as if Gates thought he was his equal or something, or as if Gates thought he had some rights, being in his own home and all. And I've seen more than a few cops with that same attitude, and I've gone to jail for pointing out to them that "Because I said so!" is not a valid constitutional reason. And I've beaten them in court. One of 'em was even drummed off the force when a group of us showed a pattern of abuse and harassment. He was later arrested for beating his wife, which came as no real surprise to anyone, because he really was that much of an asshole.

KWICKO

Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:58 PM

Quote:

I also note that in your latter post you have mistakenly attributed two of mikeys statements to me, and if I was half the asshole you take me for I'd be running that ball for the end zone, now wouldn't I ?

But it's an honest mistake, and gets the benefit of the doubt - not the least of which because mikey and myself do make similar arguments at times.

Thanks, Frem - coming from you, I'll take that as a high compliment indeed!

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay. Gloves off. You ARE a stupid asshole, aren't you?

Perhaps your point didn't come across as clearly as you intended it to. How about perhaps giving me the benefit of doubt before you throw a verbal tantrum.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If I choose to behave in the best possible way to achieve a desired result, that's not "thinking like me", buttwipe.

You used a personal story from your past to illustrate that the situation could have been handled differently. Excuse me for assuming that you thought all 'cops' should think and act more like you.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was just asking if paid professionals could do the same. If you want to tag correct, desirable or LEGALLY DEFINED police procedure with a particular mindset, go ahead.

So in your eyes, there are no paid professionals who act professionally?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Douchebag.

Your Momma.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not that I'm pissed or anything...

Hope you don't take your anger out on some unsuspecting, innocent third party. That would be quite un-professional.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The more I hear about this story, the more it sounds like the cop isn't so much a racist, as just an ASSHOLE.

You tried to tag me as the racist earlier. Does that make you the asshole?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
His gripe wasn't that Gates is black, but rather that Gates had the temerity to talk back to HIM, a POLICE OFFICER, as if Gates thought he was his equal or something, or as if Gates thought he had some rights, being in his own home and all. And I've seen more than a few cops with that same attitude, and I've gone to jail for pointing out to them that "Because I said so!" is not a valid constitutional reason. And I've beaten them in court. One of 'em was even drummed off the force when a group of us showed a pattern of abuse and harassment. He was later arrested for beating his wife, which came as no real surprise to anyone, because he really was that much of an asshole.

I knew a warehouse worker who was a serial abuser asshole. Kwicko, why are you a serial abusing asshole?

The ability of some people to hyperbolize is astonishing to me. One officer wrongfully arrested one black man. Guess that means race relations are horrible in America. If only there was a black president or something.

Now you are shifting gears and arguing that the 'cops' aren't racist so much as mafioso thugs.
You ever have a bad day Kwicko? You ever snapped at someone for no particular reason? Someone ever set you off by simply not listening to you?

Does the officer in question have a history of this kind of thing? Was it just the culmination of two people who had two bad days that happened to intersect at the same time? If police are such racist thugs, why do we not hear about more situations like this?

KWICKO

Friday, July 24, 2009 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The more I hear about this story, the more it sounds like the cop isn't so much a racist, as just an ASSHOLE.

You tried to tag me as the racist earlier. Does that make you the asshole?

Dolt, I've been telling you for YEARS that I'm an asshole. Did you miss a memo or something? Are you honestly that slow on the uptake?

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
His gripe wasn't that Gates is black, but rather that Gates had the temerity to talk back to HIM, a POLICE OFFICER, as if Gates thought he was his equal or something, or as if Gates thought he had some rights, being in his own home and all. And I've seen more than a few cops with that same attitude, and I've gone to jail for pointing out to them that "Because I said so!" is not a valid constitutional reason. And I've beaten them in court. One of 'em was even drummed off the force when a group of us showed a pattern of abuse and harassment. He was later arrested for beating his wife, which came as no real surprise to anyone, because he really was that much of an asshole.

I knew a warehouse worker who was a serial abuser asshole. Kwicko, why are you a serial abusing asshole?

I don't know that I've ever abused serial. I know that I've abused CEREAL before. And if it had enough fiber in it, it also abused ME.

Quote:

The ability of some people to hyperbolize is astonishing to me. One officer wrongfully arrested one black man. Guess that means race relations are horrible in America. If only there was a black president or something.

You're easily astonished, then. Or you're hyperbolizing when you use that word.

Quote:

Now you are shifting gears and arguing that the 'cops' aren't racist so much as mafioso thugs.

Whoa - hyperbolize much? I said THIS cop seems to be not so much a racist, as just an asshole. Where you got the plural "cops" out of that I have no idea. Probably just you being your normal asshole hyperbolic self.

Quote:

You ever have a bad day Kwicko? You ever snapped at someone for no particular reason? Someone ever set you off by simply not listening to you?

You mean before now?

Quote:

Does the officer in question have a history of this kind of thing?

If he didn't before, he does now.

Quote:
Was it just the culmination of two people who had two bad days that happened to intersect at the same time? If police are such racist thugs, why do we not hear about more situations like this?

Maybe because you haven't been paying attention. Or you're slow. Or both.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 24, 2009 12:48 AM

I've quite literally had more stimulating conversations with a stump.

KWICKO

Friday, July 24, 2009 1:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I've quite literally had more stimulating conversations with a stump.

And yet you are quite literally so stupid that you'll continue THIS conversation. Curious.

Of course, I'm not surprised at all that you find conversing with a stump "stimulating".

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 24, 2009 1:25 AM

Last word.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 1:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Perhaps your point didn't come across as clearly as you intended it to. How about perhaps giving me the benefit of doubt before you throw a verbal tantrum.

No.

Quote:

You used a personal story from your past to illustrate that the situation could have been handled differently. Excuse me for assuming that you thought all 'cops' should think and act more like you.

I also think all cops should breathe. Dumass ones that don't... well, they aren't gonna create many problems anyway.

In my story I reacted in the best possible way. If I'd reacted like I'd have WANTED to react, without the benefit of being objective & trained for the situation at hand, I'd have clobbered the creeps, maybe put one's eye out & gone to jail for my trouble. Yeah, thinking like me is a problem, which is why I try not to do it in important situations.

Quote:

So in your eyes, there are no paid professionals who act professionally?

Dorothy, please take that strawman outta here. Thanks.

Quote:

Your Momma.

Honest payback. I can respect that.

Quote:

Hope you don't take your anger out on some unsuspecting, innocent third party. That would be quite un-professional.

YOUR Momma.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Last word.

Drunks are so cute.

The laughing Chrisisall

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Drunks are so cute.

But obsessive compulsives are powerful ugly.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 2:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Drunks are so cute.

But obsessive compulsives are powerful ugly.

Okay. I think she's behind you now.

The laughing Chrisisall

HERO

Friday, July 24, 2009 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The idea that police should have the power they have to harass a man at his own home for (allegedly) insulting their Mom is totalitarian.

That is not what happened. Gates was arrested outside the home for Disorderly Conduct.

Why didn't he arrest him in the home, since the conduct was the same? Disorderly Conduct is when a person cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to the public by engaging in turbulant behaivor.

Legally you cannot be disorderly against a police officer (I never understood this, but its the way it is). When he stepped outside and continued to act in an abusive and turbulent manner the officer notes that a number of witnesses had gathered and that they were displaying shock and alarm. At that point Mr. Gates would have been guilty of Disorderly Conduct, a Minor Misdemeanor.

So how did he get arrested since normal DOCs are summery offenses? Good question. The officer asks him to stop his behaivor and Mr. Gates did not comply. In Ohio, like Massachusetts, persisting in the turbulant behaivor after being asked to stop elevates the offense to a Misdemeanor of the 4th Degree, punishable by up to 30 days in jail and a $250 fine. At that point a person can be arrested.

It is clear from the witnesses that Mr. Gates was out of line and the officer acted appropriatly.

The officer is a long time veteran with a strong reputation for racial tolerance. He got some notoriety for going out of his way to give CPR (and mouth to mouth) to a dying famous black athlete, he was requested by the black Commissioner to teach racial sensitivity classes (the "don't profile" classes), he has the support of the black Mayor, fellow officer (black and white), and so on.

Gates has a great reputation for being a scholar. He reacted wrongly and made a simple situation much worse. If police get a call that someone is breaking into my house and they respond and find someone there...I'd want them to make sure its me and not some crook. Thats reasonable and its their duty.

"Sir, we got a call that someone had broken into this home. May I see some ID please?"
"Officer, this is my home, here is my ID, look there's a picture of me and my family on the wall."
"Thank you sir, sorry for the intrusion. Have a wonderful day"
"Thank you Officer, would you like some coffee or a cookie to take with you?"

Thirty seconds of good sense by Mr. Gates and this is not a story.

I note for the record that reports about the 911 and dispatch tapes confirm much of the officer's side of the story, particularly his calm and reasonable demeanor...and Mr. Gates lack of the same. I've noticed in my practice that most good officers maintain that demeanor as a defense mechanism that keeps them from getting emotional in turbulant situations. I don't know if its training, experiance, personality or what...but most officers have it...they problem ones uniformally lack it.

Quote:

That non-violent, non-resisting alleged offenders can be handcuffed in the first place is medieval.

Actually, in medieval times he would have been beaten, placed in chains, dragged behind the officer's horse to the dungeon, held there indefinately before being placed in the stocks or beheaded.

They also wore tights and ate turkey legs...so it could not have been all bad.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

ANTHONYT

Friday, July 24, 2009 4:40 PM

Hello,

I can easily believe that this is an incident not related to race, but rather related to the nature of an authoritarian agency being denied the respect that it thinks it deserves.

The neighbors were justified in calling the police if they witnessed a man (whom they could not presumably identify from their vantage) attempting to open the front door of a house with something other than the key. Best evidence is that the door was stuck or inoperative in some way, and the gentleman in question may have finagled, pounded, pushed, or otherwise tried to cajole the door open. This is indeed suspicious behavior, atypical of a home owner, and I hope my own neighbors would do the same for me. Having police visit you in order to check on your well being or the well being of your property is not oppressive. It may be inconvenient, or even embarrassing, but if some stranger had been breaking into my house, I'd probably not be complaining, eh?

However, what happened next is the actual 'crime' in this case. The police officer was able, perhaps at some uncomfortable length, to determine that the person he was speaking to lived in the place he was at, and that no apparent crime was in progress.

It does not matter if the resident was rude, if he yelled at the officer, or if he was hesitant to comply. The fact was that he did comply eventually with the essentials of the investigation. The officer was able to collect all the relevant facts in regards to the call before any arrest was made. The arrest was made for some kind of generalized public misbehavior charge, but in reality it was a charge of 'citizen did not respect me or my authority.'

Now, I have worked in customer service. I know it is infuriating to have someone mistreat you during the performance of your duty. Especially when you are actually trying to help them. However, I do not have the authority to arrest the people who mistreat me or misbehave. It's not even a crime unless they actually assault me. So, like most people with customer service responsibilities, I try de-escalation and complete my job function.

Because the officer did have the authority to arrest, he chose to do so in this case. I think that was a poor decision. Had he stopped to ask himself whether there was more public (and personal) good to be had in arresting this person or not, he would have doubtless made a different decision. But he did not ask himself that question, he acted instead out of indignation at being mistreated by a citizen in the performance of his duties.

However, the professor in this case seems to me highly racist, or at least racially programmed. He is unable to see this in the terms of an authoritarian denied respect. (Or to acknowledge that he was a bit rude to a fellow who was just trying to see if someone had broken into the bloody house.) Instead, he labeled it racism and will probably write articles or a book about it, or maybe make a movie. The entire nation erupts with racist dialogues. The same tired racist dialogues we are all programmed to have. Even the President is not above it.

This is about respect and responsibility between civilian authorities and civilians. That is where the dialogue should be centered. Not on color or race.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

When he stepped outside

Uh, when he was tricked outside so the arrest could stick.

Thirty seconds of not taking it personally by the officer, and this is not a story.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

This is about respect and responsibility between civilian authorities and civilians. That is where the dialogue should be centered. Not on color or race.

Thank you for the ultimate post in this matter, Anthony!

The laughing Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 24, 2009 4:51 PM

Simply put.

Pair of assholes having a disagreement.

One of those assholes happened to be in his official job capacity at the time, one did not.

Then misused his official status to add weight to his end of the disagreement, which puts him clearly in the wrong, nuff said.

When you pin on that badge, you no longer GET the "having a bad day" excuse, because your responsibility SHOULD (although we all know it doesn't, and that's the problem!) elevate in direct proportion to your authority over a situation, and to act irresponsibly in such a fashion at any OTHER job would get you fired.

Believe me, I've taken more worse crap in my time, and I would lay good odds that having worked security/nightwatchman himself, Anthony has done so as well - long as the homeowner did not actively lay hands upon him, the cop in question should be standing in the unemployment line.

Period.

-F

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 24, 2009 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thank you for the ultimate post in this matter, Anthony!

Yeah, because he was the first person in this thread to mention something along those lines.
Biped.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 24, 2009 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Biped.

Say that to my face, then ask yourself: "Do I feel lucky...?"

The laughing Chrisisall

HERO

Friday, July 24, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
When he stepped outside

Uh, when he was tricked outside so the arrest could stick.

SO the officer tricked him...him being a highly educated Harvard professor.

Its the oldest trick in the book. "Follow me outside and continue you highly inappropriate and turbulent behaivor." Works every time.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

RUE

Friday, July 24, 2009 9:21 PM

Gates had the right not only to demand police ID but to be shown it. And once he produced his own ID, the patrolman should have said 'sorry sir, my mistake, have a nice day' and be gone, as the public SERVANT he is. That's what SHOULD have happened.

That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

***************************************************************

But I understand that 'Hero' thinks it's OK for police to harass, intimidate, belittle, trick, punch, taser or otherwise goad innocent people into doing something - ANYthing - or even provide physical evidence themselves where none exists - as a pretext for an arrest.

All in the name of upholding the 'law', eh 'Hero' ?

WHOZIT

Friday, July 24, 2009 10:00 PM

Barack Obama: Race baiting poverty pimp.

Now Barry is calling the the Cop to tell him how great he is, his whores in the press are asking him tuff question now........COOL!

Barry IS the stupid one, soon I will laff at your pain!

RUE

Friday, July 24, 2009 10:48 PM

If 'Barry' is the stupid one, what does that make you - the black hole of any intelligence that comes near ? Or just a hole ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 24, 2009 11:05 PM

Quote:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

I ain't sure that's as true as people think.

When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much.

-F

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 24, 2009 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

Why is it that the very people who cry the loudest about racism are the one's continuing to fan the non-existent flames?
I understand Sharpton's angle, without it he would be out of the spotlight. But what does a 50 year old polish woman get out of it?

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much.

Gorram straight.

The laughing Chrisisall

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:58 AM

Hello,

Rue, I think the situation would indeed have been different had the aggrieved in this case been white. The primary difference is that the matter would not have received this level of national attention, from the President to the Press.

The problem of this situation is that three people exercised their rights to make bad decisions. Had anyone involved given any thought to the consequences of their actions, I like to think they would have acted differently.

I say three people, because President Obama also made a very bad decision when he commented on the event. I'll explain more on this later.

First, the homeowner should have given more thought to his situation. It is plainly and obviously unnusual for the owner of a home to be breaking into his home. It does happen, but it is an event that we would HOPE would attract the attention of neighbors and other passerby who have a concern for the well being of their comminity. Obviously the neighbors would have an idea about who lived in the home, but just as obviously they could not clearly identify the person attempting to break into the property. It is good and right, at least in our timid society, that the neighbors called for a police investigation of the matter. Had someone in fact been trying to break into his home, the professor would be quite glad for the police investigation. He would want unknown parties inside his home after a report of a break in to be interrogated about their identities. He would want all of this, IF his home had been broken into.

It was doubtless troublesome and perhaps embarrassing for a policeman to investigate the non-incident. However, a thoughtful and intelligent man like the good professor should have been able to appreciate that the police officer was doing his duty, and was there in fact to help the unknown owner of the property (house.) It was good and right for the officer to ask, "Who are you," and to request more than just a say-so about the person's identity. These things all make perfect sense in the context of an investigation about a break-in. However, either because of social programming about race issues, or because he was having a bad day, the professor did not act in a thoughtful manner. He behaved belligerantly. I consider it to have been fully within his rights to behave badly, but I stress that just because you CAN do a thing does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

The officer, meanwhile, transformed himself from a heroic figure to a bit of a villain. He was doubtless indignant and upset that the person who should have been most grateful for his visit was in fact angry with him and generally uncooperative. For most of humanity employed in a customer service capacity (which is what I maintain 75% of Police work amounts to) we simply grin and bear the insults of our customers, de-escalate the situation to the best of our ability, and try to carry out our work. The officer was able, ultimately, to determine that there was no break in. He could identify the owner, and verify that the owner was not in danger. At this point, the wise thing to do would have been to remove himself from the scene. The home owner may have been behaving badly, but since that behavior was linked directly to the presence of the officer and a perceived insult, going away was in fact the best way to defuse the proverbial bomb. Mission accomplished, go on about the days work. However, there was a law which allowed the officer to arrest the home owner. The law was doubtless not designed to punish homeowners frustrated with police visitations. However, because the officer COULD retaliate against the poor behavior by arresting the homeowner, he chose to do so for the immediate gratification provided. This was not a benefit to the community, nor ultimately a benefit even to the arresting officer. We have another example of why just because you CAN do a thing, does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

Finally, we have President Obama. He spent a large amount of time producing pres

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:05 AM

"When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much."

If the man had been white but POOR he most definitely would have been hassled. But a RICH WHITE MAN IN A WELL TO DO NEIGHBORHOOD ? Think about it --- carefully. A RICH WHITE MAN having a bad day and then having to break into his own house. Sorry sir, my mistake. Have a nice day. He would be considered an asshole. An itch. A spoiled rich prick. But a person one should show respect to nevertheless. And the officer would probably have had a few choice descriptions to regale his co-workers with at the end of the day.

Yes, race still makes a difference.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:16 AM

Rue,

A rich anyone might have been treated better, had they been identifiable as being rich. I trust that if somehow the professor had been wearing the badge 'rich professor, nationally renowned' around his neck when the officer first spied him, the result would not have been the same.

And yet an unidentified white man who was belligerent and uncooperative, in a home where a white man was reported to be breaking in... I suspect he would be treated badly by a prideful authoritarian figure.

Anyone lacking the 'I am important' proverbial badge would have fared similarly, I think.

There are race problems in the US. They happen every day.

I don't think this was one of them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:19 AM

An unidentified WELL DRESSED white man who THEN presents ID showing that he is indeed the owner and resident of the house - sorry sir, my mistake. You are obviously not the burglar that was reported.

Once Gates was ID'd as the owner, it should have ended there.

It WOULD have ended there if he had been white. The money factor of the white guy would have been the big stop sign - in the way that it wasn't for a rich BLACK man.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:25 AM

A friend suggested I clarify something.

I am sure that had the officer been able to identify the person at the door instantly, there would have been no altercation. This was the meaning of my 'rich man badge' comment.

The altercation occurred, and THEN the identity came to the fore. By this time the authoritarian pride was wounded and events had begun their slide downhill.

I maintain that any thoughtfulness or responsibility shown at this point could have de-escalated things. Neither party showed such, and so the arrest became a natural consequence of two people behaving badly.

But do you honestly think if the professor had been recognized (or politely identified himself with evidence) in minute one of this situation, that he would have been an arrest simply because he was black?

No, he was arrested because he behaved badly, and the officer was appalled that the homeowner had failed to 'respect his authority.' Not because he was black. But because he was a citizen, and the officer was a law man.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
An unidentified WELL DRESSED white man who THEN presents ID showing that he is indeed the owner and resident of the house - sorry sir, my mistake. You are obviously not the burglar that was reported.

Once Gates was ID'd as the owner, it should have ended there.

It WOULD have ended there if he had been white. The money factor of the white guy would have been the big stop sign - in the way that it wasn't for a rich BLACK man.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Rue,

We are in agreement that it should have ended there. In fact, it never should have started.

The professor should have thoughtfully assisted in the investigation.

The police officer should not have allowed his wounded pride to guide him.

But there is no evidence here for race being a factor. Believing that race is a factor is a result of social programming about race relations, and not the actual facts of this case and these people.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:28 AM

If Gates had been white - a badly behaved but well dressed, wealthy, middle-aged and ultimately properly identified home owner - the officer would have climbed down.

Yes, he might have broken a few of his own teeth biting back his words. But he would have done it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:35 AM

Hello,

I don't think that much can be assumed here. There is no evidence to support the leap that the officer was racist. There may be social programming that tells us we should assume that much, but it is up to the facts to illuminate our philosophy, not our philosophy to illuminate the facts.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:42 AM

I've literally had police overlook me - their eyes just passed over me as if I wasn't here - when they looking for a no-description perpetrator. (In one case it really was me - I accidentally set off a security alarm by banging on the side of a Quonset hut. So though I was quite literally the ONLY person there, they drove right by.) Being white - and female - got me off the hook on more than one occasion. It has to do with unconscious associations which exist despite our conscious efforts to be unbiased. This is well documented by repeated studies over many years and many populations. (Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking)

Put yourself in the shoes of a police officer. MOST of the time the people they hassle (whether rightly or wrongly) can do jack about it. But policing is highly political work. You have to know who you can safely piss off and who you cannot. Rich, well-dressed, middle-aged white homeowner - NOT in the 'you can jerk them around at will' category.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:50 AM

Rue,

Are you not also making unconscious (or perhaps even conscious) assumptions? You are assuming this particular officer conforms to a broad stereotype that you hold in your head.

I'm doing the same thing, by the way. Based on my own experiences within the police department and subject to its abuse from without. I have been treated in varied ways that have had nothing to do with my unidentifiable race. What I have universally detected is that a failure to respect authority will cause an officer to start to look for ways to punish you for your disrespect.

This is neither right nor proper, and I abhor any law that is so nebulous as to outlaw 'disruptive public behavior' or 'indecency.' These broad tools are precisely the ones most misused by prideful authoritarian figures, in my opinion.

But what do we actually know about the people in this case? You could accuse me of making assumptions based on my own social programming or individual experiences or biases. But you can't possibly fail to see that the same possibility exists with your racist assumptions.

Any such assumption may itself be your 'blink' subconscious programming.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:55 AM

80% of white people have strong negative associations with blacks. Even people who consider themselves unbiased. Even people who are TRYING to make the test come out right. Even people who take the test multiple times in order to try to get enough practice to 'trick' it.

If I am making an assumption, it is a well-documented, well-studied, well-supported one - and one so prevalent I would feel comfortable putting money on it.

While I may ILLUSTRATE the situation with my own experience, my basis is indeed the statistics.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:09 AM

Rue,

I suppose if that's true, I could go around declaring random white people to be racists and be accurate 80% of the time.

And yet doing so wouldn't make me right even one time.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:36 AM

Quote:

For my own part, I shake my head at all of them. I expect college professors to be thoughtful. I expect Police Officers to be responsible. I expect Presidents to be Intelligent.

Your expectations have no basis in recent reality.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:40 PM

Quote:
just because you CAN do a thing does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

I actually have that exact phrase on a brass plaque in my office - one gifted to me many years ago for an act that was equal parts blind courage, and downright stupidity.

Quote:
I abhor any law that is so nebulous as to outlaw 'disruptive public behavior' or 'indecency.'

I lost it somewhere over the years, but I had framed the citation I received for "Public Lewdness", back in Baltimore when I was 22.

Made the mistake of singing a VERY racy ballad during a pub crawl as we were waltzing past a parked police cruiser with a paid of apparently bored cops within - who felt the need to cite me for *something* (along with some pretty disparaging remarks about my singing talent, or the lack thereof..) and spent almost an hour trying to find something, so yeah, laws like that serve a less than noble purpose.

Given WHAT they cited me for, however, I just paid the damn thing and carried it as a badge of honor - really, how many folk do you know who've been cited for THAT one ?!

-F

RUE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:28 PM

"I suppose if that's true, I could go around declaring random white people to be racists and be accurate 80% of the time.

And yet doing so wouldn't make me right even one time."

And yet, given the nature of the cop's reaction - I suspect it was true of him in particular. And that I am right.

***************************************************************

Having cited the hypothetical
- imagine everything exactly the same: middle aged-male, well-dressed, homeowner and resident of record, WEALTHY in a WEALTHY neighborhood and OBVIOUSLY not a burglar, but with the man being white - I believe YOU can forsee a different outcome.
Having cited personal example
- where cops DID act out of unconscious bias
Having cited statistics
- strong racial bias is prevalent

I think I have made a much better case than you.

It does not PROVE the cop was biased. But you at the same time can't prove he wasn't. And my information stacks up better than yours in support of my conclusion.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:58 PM

Asking someone to prove a negative isn't exactly an honest method of debating them.

Just sayin,

-F

CHRISISALL

Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:00 AM

Anthony was right: it was a lose lose lose.

The laughing Chrisisall

RUE

Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:01 AM

Then he can do what scientists do - disprove the null. He has options. But nowhere in this thread do I find anyone saying anything other than "my opinion is ...", and no one is extending their thoughts.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

HERO

Monday, July 27, 2009 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

White folks are arrested for Disorderly Conduct just the same as this man.

The issue is not that Mr. Gates was black...its that the officer was white. Mr. Gates, the media, and the President showed a signifigant level of racism against the officer. They all jumped to the conclusion that a white officer was incapable of acting in a proper manner with a black man. If the officer had been black...this would never have gotten the President's attention. That was racist.

Maybe they needed a wise latina woman to mediate...

Quote:

But I understand that 'Hero' thinks it's OK for police to harass, intimidate, belittle, trick, punch, taser or otherwise goad innocent people into doing something - ANYthing - or even provide physical evidence themselves where none exists - as a pretext for an arrest.

All in the name of upholding the 'law', eh 'Hero' ?

I note for the record that neither Mr. Gates nor the President has accused the officer in this case of harassment, intmmidation, belittlement, or trickery. Nor was Mr. Gates punched or tasered. The officer did decide to leave Mr. Gates house and informed him that if he wanted to discuss the matter further he would have to come outside. Once outside nobody forced Mr. Gates to continue his turbulent behaivor...in public at which point he was no longer "innocent".

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

HERO

Monday, July 27, 2009 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I lost it somewhere over the years, but I had framed the citation I received for "Public Lewdness", back in Baltimore when I was 22.
...
how many folk do you know who've been cited for THAT one ?!

Well...there you and a bunch of sex offenders. But keep right on carrying it.

Just remember to register if you move to Ohio.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, July 27, 2009 3:54 PM

Hey, now I was wearing pants.

They wanted to arrest someone for swinging low, that woulda been MadOx, who was wearing his kilt regimental - and if my singing offended them so, they shoulda been damn glad we made him leave the pipes home!

-F

CANTTAKESKY

Monday, July 27, 2009 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
This is about respect and responsibility between civilian authorities and civilians. That is where the dialogue should be centered. Not on color or race.

Yet another articulate and hit-the-nail-on-the-head summary from our dear AnthonyT.

You da man. Thank you.

HERO

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There is no evidence to support the leap that the officer was racist.

No. But race is an issue. The evidence is that Mr. Gates and President Obama are racist.

This is not a case of 'driving while black'...its a case of 'policing while white'. Racial profiling pure and simple...less by Mr. Gates, much, much more so by the President.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

"Hero. I have come to lose some respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

Yeah, he NEEDED to be taken into custody. Taxpayer money well spent. In fact, he should have been taken into custody just for having the ABILITY to make a ruckus, y'know, preemptively. Just AIMING to misbehave should be enough of a charge.
We need tighter societal restraints to maintain order.

Heil Hero.

The laughing Chrisisall

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

Some years ago out here in LA the neo-Nazi who was then running the LAPD went to the City Council with a reccommendation for the Board of Education that the high school curriculum adopt a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority, how to make it easier for the cops to haul folks away, to make sure the cops could comply with minimal Constitutional requirements as easily as possible. I'm sure the Gestapo would have approved. Once it hit the papers, it was quickly rejected byt the City Council.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

The laughing Chrisisall

I'm sure BDN would approve as well.

HERO

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

Some things need to be taught. A lot of people could use a class on How Not To Be Arrested. But assuming you fail that, then you would need a class on How To Be Arrested...or at least a chapter on How To Avoid A Resisting Charge.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

PARTICIPANT

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:27 PM

Holocaust with the Levees

HERO

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, he NEEDED to be taken into custody. Taxpayer money well spent. In fact, he should have been taken into custody just for having the ABILITY to make a ruckus, y'know, preemptively. Just AIMING to misbehave should be enough of a charge.
We need tighter societal restraints to maintain order.

Your being silly.

Your saying that because I advocate arresting people for Disorderly Conduct, that I advocate arresting anyone for anything. I disagree.

Disorderly Conduct is a broad charge and covers a lot of things...but those things it covers are specifically defined. I've seen it cover everything from a loud stereo to a bar fight.

I note for the record that (in Ohio) you CAN NOT be arrested for engaging in turbulant behaivor that harrasses, alarms, incites, or annoys the public. You can ONLY be cited for it...a minor misdemeanor. You can ONLY be arrested for it if you persist after being asked to stop.

I see no harm in the Officer asking Mr. Gates to calm down and then arresting him when he refused to calm down and was now creating a public scene. Gates should have known better...after all, he's a Harvard professor.

I wonder if he would have allowed such a disturbence in his classroom...likely had someone been so disruptive, Mr. Gates would have called the police and the person, had he persisted, would have been arrested with Mr. Gates' approval.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

PARTICIPANT

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:39 PM

Leeve Holocaust

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:12 PM

Political analyst Lawrence O'Donnell refutes the idea that Gates "needed to be arrested" in Time Magazine:

Quote:
Viewpoint: The Stupidity of the Gates Arrest
By Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. Saturday, Jul. 25, 2009
Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested for disorderly conduct while trying to force open the front door of his home on July 16, 2009

Here is what the absurdist, typically stilted language of Sergeant James Crowley's report on the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. really means:

Gates: You're not the boss of me!
Crowley: I am the boss of you.
Gates: You are not the boss of me!
Crowley: I'll show you. You're under arrest.

There is no crime described in Crowley's official version of the way Gates behaved. Crowley says explicitly that he arrested Gates for yelling. Nothing else, not a single threatening movement, just yelling. On the steps of his own home. Yelling is not a crime. Yelling does not meet the definition of disorderly conduct in Massachusetts. Not a single shouted word or action that Crowley has attributed to Gates amounts to disorderly conduct. That is why the charges had to be dropped.
(Read "Gates' Disorderly Conduct: The Police's Judgment Call.")

In classically phony police talk, Crowley refers to "[Gates'] continued tumultuous behavior." When cops write that way, you know they have nothing. What is tumultuous behavior? Here's what it isn't: brandishing a knife in a threatening manner, punching and kicking, clenching a fist in a threatening manner, throwing a wrench or, in the Gates house, maybe a book. If the subject does any of those things, cops always write it out with precision. When they've got nothing, they use phrases that mean nothing. Phrases like tumultuous behavior.

Unless you confess to a crime or threaten to commit a crime, there is nothing you can say to a cop that makes it legal for him to arrest you. You can tell him he is stupid, you can tell him he is ugly, you can call him racist, you can say anything you might feel like saying about his mother. He has taken an oath to listen to all of that and ignore it. That is the real teachable moment here: cops are paid to be professionals, but even the best of them are human and can make stupid mistakes.

We have an uncomfortable choice with Sergeant Crowley. Either he didn't know what disorderly conduct is or he decided to show Gates who's boss the only way he knew how — by whipping out his handcuffs and abusing his power to arrest. Police make the latter choice in this country every day, knowing the charges are going to have to be dropped.
(See TIME's 10 Questions for Henry Louis Gates Jr.)

We all know it happens. That's why so much of the commentary about this case is obsessed with exactly who said what to whom in the Gates home that day. Most white, and some black, TV talking heads obviously believe that Gates was stupid if he actually exercised his constitutional right to say anything he felt like saying to a cop. Because they know it is not terribly difficult to provoke U.S. police to violate their oaths and the law and arrest people for no legal reason.

The President was right when he called the arrest stupid. It doesn't mean Crowley is stupid. It means that, in that moment, he made a stupid choice. Barack Obama has made some stupid choices on occasion too. We all do. Everyone who is defending Crowley's arrest, including his union, needs to reread his report. There is a crime described in there. In fact, Crowley's report is a written confession of the crime of false arrest.

Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. is an MSNBC political analyst and the author of Deadly Force: The True Story of How a Badge Can Become a License to Kill.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I wonder if he would have allowed such a disturbence in his classroom...likely had someone been so disruptive, Mr. Gates would have called the police and the person, had he persisted, would have been arrested with Mr. Gates' approval.

I wonder if you'd fee the same way if said disturbance was occurring in the student's own home.

According to his own report, Crowley maintains that Gates was "yelling". According to Massachusetts law (per the O'Donnell article cited above), "yelling" isn't a legal cause for arrest for disorderly conduct.

Quote:
Gates should have known better...after all, he's a Harvard professor.

And Crowley should have known better - after all, he's a trained (allegedly) police officer!

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And Crowley should have known better - after all, he's a trained (allegedly) police officer!

He's also a sergeant- which means he's got seniority and experience. He's also been the training officer for their racial sensitivity seminars. If he could lose it so badly so easily, what does that say about the junior cops he's trained?
" Black folks, best y'all stay away from Cambridge-- like for the next 20 years."

RUE

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:13 PM

"White folks are arrested for Disorderly Conduct just the same as this man."

Yes - usually in bars. Not in their own homes. Not for simply speaking more loudly than usual.

'Hero' - you got nothing. This man did NOTHING that he should have been arrested for. NOTHING.

So what WAS the issue ? He wasn't a burglar (with luggage). He didn't commit a felony or misdemeanor. He did NOTHING wrong.

What could the issue possibly have been, then ? Middle-aged, well-dressed, educated, wealthy homeowner in a wealthy neighborhood in his own home. It's right on the edge of my mind. What could POSSIBLY have been the problem ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:37 PM

another couple of items-- I saw a piece, I think it was on Time.com, but I can't find the reference. The gist of it was that shouting at a police officer, saying something critical or even offensive to, at, or about a police officer, was specifically exempt from the laws regarding creating a disturbance, etc. Notion being that folks upset with the government are specifically going to take it out on the cops, possibly even unfairly, and are going to be upset and loud. Cop trying to suppress that behavior is gonna end up looking bad, and making the government look bad, in fact is going to suppress, and oppress, freedom of speech, in the very moment when freedom of speech, the right to criticize government, and to petition for redress is most needed.

Cops are supposed to be trained to deal with that, ignore it. Ain't no law requiring how a free citizen of this freedom loving country is supposed to act, short of committing assault, in a politically charged situation.

I can think of plenty of places both world wide and in America historically, where folks legitimately expressing their disapproval, have been arrested, gassed, beaten shot, for no more serious crime.

Come to think of it, I'm also surprised that this cop didn't claim to be in fear of his life. Cops use that one all the time, even when confronted by 90 lb old women armed with screwdrivers, guys with wallets or cell phones that the officer thought was a gun, by a " suspect" making a sudden, suspicious move. THIS GUY HAD A CANE! HE COULDA HIT SOMEBODY WITH IT! HE COULDA CAUSED THE CROWD OF SEVEN BYSTANDERS TO RIOT AND ASSAULT THE COP! 'Course that situation normally causes somebody to get killed, usually not the cop.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Your being silly.

Disorderly Conduct is a broad charge and covers a lot of things...but those things it covers are specifically defined. I've seen it cover everything from a loud stereo to a bar fight.

So, it covers SOOOO many things, yet it is specific.

"Your" being an idiot.

Quote:

I wonder if he would have allowed such a disturbence in his classroom...

Hero, STFU. It's not comparable, and you know it. You're just playing the reasonable authoritarian card- but lo! Turn it over & it's the Nazi Joker! Who woulda thunk it?

The laughing Chrisisall

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