Revealing scene in BDM

POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 04:54
VIEWED: 8330
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JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 6:45 AM

I have mentioned this before, but I think one particular scene is highly revealing to us, whether the scriptwriters intendeed it to be or not.
And yes, technically this is not an Episode, but I thought it more appropriate here.

This is the showndown between Mal and River in the Maidenhead.
River has likely killed some of the bar patrons. She has mind reading abilities, so she knows the intent of the thoughts of her assailants - if they think "I have a kill shot" she terminates them, whether they are across the room or right next to her. Her Miranda trigger command tells her to "mow them all down," but she does not kill them all. She does not use lethal force on Jayne, who is not attempting to kill her.

Some also think she is precognitive - seeing the future.

So, she can read Mal's mind, and possibly what he will think in the next few seconds. Yet she holds her gun on him.
This seems to tell us he has not yet decided whether to shoot her or not, and she is waiting to see what he decides. Surely, the moment he decides to shoot her, he will be dead before he can pull his trigger. He likely also knows she can read his thoughts, and considers those ramifications as well.
River is operating mostly under the control of the subliminal programming. It is doubtful the Institue programmed her to be judicial with the lethal force, but rather to prefer extreme prejudice and just kill when in doubt. River's reluctance to use the full force her programming allocates is a sign that she is struggling against her programming - using restraint when she is commanded to kill, and trying not to kill Mal if he doesn't mentally conclude he will shoot her.

Does Mal take all this into account when he decides to take her back aboard? If she had not shown some level of fighting against her programming, when she could have easily killed them all, would he have felt the same sympathy for her? She has shown this effort to him in this scene. Is this what he is pondering when, later as she's cuffed in the Serenity locker, he crouches over her in thought?
Is this also the genesis of his questions for her later, when she is searching for Miranda on the charts, and cocks her gun on him?

Discuss?

HUGHFF

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
This is the showndown between Mal and River in the Maidenhead.
River has likely killed some of the bar patrons. She has mind reading abilities, so she knows the intent of the thoughts of her assailants - if they think "I have a kill shot" she terminates them, whether they are across the room or right next to her. Her Miranda trigger command tells her to "mow them all down," but she does not kill them all. She does not use lethal force on Jayne, who is not attempting to kill her.

Some also think she is precognitive - seeing the future.

So, she can read Mal's mind, and possibly what he will think in the next few seconds. Yet she holds her gun on him.
This seems to tell us he has not yet decided whether to shoot her or not, and she is waiting to see what he decides. Surely, the moment he decides to shoot her, he will be dead before he can pull his trigger. He likely also knows she can read his thoughts, and considers those ramifications as well.
River is operating mostly under the control of the subliminal programming. It is doubtful the Institue programmed her to be judicial with the lethal force, but rather to prefer extreme prejudice and just kill when in doubt. River's reluctance to use the full force her programming allocates is a sign that she is struggling against her programming - using restraint when she is commanded to kill, and trying not to kill Mal if he doesn't mentally conclude he will shoot her.

Likely.

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Does Mal take all this into account when he decides to take her back aboard? If she had not shown some level of fighting against her programming, when she could have easily killed them all, would he have felt the same sympathy for her? She has shown this effort to him in this scene. Is this what he is pondering when, later as she's cuffed in the Serenity locker, he crouches over her in thought?

I doubt it. That's a complex line of thought that Mal would need time to mull over. More likely he took her back, instinctively, because she's crew. (His bitch is with Simon anyway.)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Is this also the genesis of his questions for her later, when she is searching for Miranda on the charts, and cocks her gun on him?

Now he's had a bit more time so this I find credible.

www.cpfc.org - my life

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:31 PM

I'm with HUGHFF on most of this, except

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Is this also the genesis of his questions for her later, when she is searching for Miranda on the charts, and cocks her gun on him?

I don't think River fighting her subconscious programming is even on the table. She mowed down the bar, alright. Some were more efficient to kill, some weren'nt so she went for just knocking them out. Down is down.

I don't think she could possibly fight this order. Mal's "Are you more than a weapon", to me, is pointed at River's secretive and violent behavior in general. At this point she knocked out Jayne and sneaked out of hiding instead of, say, asking whether they could let her look for a Miranda planet on the Cortex. He's asking her to behave like a person, so they can treat her like one. To me.

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:42 PM

The way I see it, River begins to make her own choices when she chooses not to shoot Mal. She recognises him. And Mal doesn't shoot her, and he could.

After this point, River knows that they have the capacity to put her to sleep instantly - she can't let that happen until she's worked out what's going on. That subliminal trigger was designed to flush her out, but it also unlocked a lot of things. She begins to realise that she's not completely crazy after this - that some of her 'dreams' are not hallucinations, but memories.

But it's a great scene, a more intense version of the shoot-out scene in 'War Stories'. That was the point in the series when you began to think 'er,what?' about River. She wasn't the little broken thing anymore.

NBZ

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
The way I see it, River begins to make her own choices when she chooses not to shoot Mal. She recognises him. And Mal doesn't shoot her, and he could.

I don't think the slight "standoff" was anything more than a artistic licence - Joss (I think from reading the script) had the intent that as soon as they point the weapons at each other, she is put to sleep. This is not really possible in the real world or on screen, so there was a slight pause.

Saying that there IS a parallel between her and Mal - both in the series, the BDM and in the bar fight not sure whether this is artistic licence or not.

In the bar fight, she only seems to go for a weapon once Mal makes his move - to go for a weapon. There is an added urgency in this third part of the sequence.(iirc, this is how Joss depicts the fight in the commentary.)

What level of cooperation she had with her actions is a very good question.

If Simon was not there, IMO Joss would have made her pull the trigger.

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 1:10 PM

She just seems to come into focus more after this scene, to be more in control of herself.

Here's a point. She beat down all those folk who came at her, but the one who actually grabbed her (Jayne) she merely temporarily disabled. My call is for a level of recognition.

But I've lived with the version of the 'Verse in my head for over two years now. And I have some very definite ideas on the who, what and why of things.

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
She just seems to come into focus more after this scene, to be more in control of herself.

Here's a point. She beat down all those folk who came at her, but the one who actually grabbed her (Jayne) she merely temporarily disabled. My call is for a level of recognition.

What would the difference be between disabling and beating down? *g* She knocks him out no more than the guy behind the bar who gets the bottle on his head, so.. even if she did recognize him - and why wouldn't she, the order doesn't affect her knowledge center, right? Just her priorities and actions. - it doesn't mean she gave Jayne or Mal special treatment.

NBZ

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
My call is for a level of recognition.

I would say recognition of events. And she did not "merely disable" him. She incapacitated him (painfully), then hit him over the head with a table. For the average person, that could have caused serious damage. Thankfully Jayne has a thick skull.

Besides at this point, the third sequence of the fight had started, the one with urgency as Mal was going for a gun - which does imply a certain level of awareness.

None of this really contradicts what you said, but I think there is a subtle difference. I don't think she "fought with herself" (more than she might have been during the rest of the sequence) to not kill Jayne, or not shoot Mal.

PLATONIST

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:12 PM

OK, I'm going to keep this brief because I keep getting booted off, today.

I'd have to go with artistic license at this point, too. This is one of those scenes that is designed to illustrate Mal's continual struggle with River's value as a person (worth saving), rather than River showing a sliver of control, because she is so freaking, obviously out of control, at this juncture. Recognition or not, when triggered, she has no control.

Later, in the next stand-off, he pointedly asks her "are you anything, but a weapon?” another example of Mal’s contemplation on what she is and what to do with her, metaphorically, “slay the Albatross or not?” He chooses not to kill or cast her aside, and eventually reaps the benefits, of having her slay the Reavers, saving his crew, because he is not there with them. She takes control this time, "my turn”.

And Jayne getting slammed in the nuts with the tabletop is hilarious, especially when we see him in the following scene, with the ice pack. And, Wash’s comment, who can forget that.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:58 AM

River shoots a person with a gun. The target is across the room, she is engaged with ohters in close proximity, she uses a gun being held by another to aim and shoot the opponent across the room (likely fatally), then does not use the gun again - because she is not try8ing to kill everybody.
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand (Adam said that during filming he told her to handle his package, it's ok, but Summer never would, she just acted like she was), and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself. She was effectively using the standard rules of escalation - other than the people who were running away - using the least effective level of force, and when an opponent raised the level (aiming a gun at her and thinking "kill shot") she then responded in kind.
Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

My brain was partially missing when i posted yesterday, so I forgot several of the points I had contemplated.
One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.
Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.
In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

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