Revealing scene in BDM

POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 04:54
VIEWED: 8330
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AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

I don't think any of this speaks for a conscious restraint.

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Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

Not really. For all we know, the first few syllables already trigger a readines to receive the phrase, and in the split second before Simon starts speaking, River is probably still busy processing the situation. This is the greatest amount of physical danger she is in, in the entire fight sequence, because this time someone at a distance has the weapon on her and she doesn't have cover. She's good, but she's also human. Maybe she was busy feeling out Mal's readiness to shoot.

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One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.

Why would the gun be empty?

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Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.

There is no evidence that River processes other people's thougths and feelings at top speed, especially those more complex than "I point a gun at you!". In "War Stories", she used her physical vision to make out where her opponents are and "did the math". In "Objects in Space", she spends a decent amount of time outside Jubal's reach getting to know him, using personal objects and his ship as guidance. Her reading of the crew take place in choppy sentences she cannot easily put into context, while time passes around her - without her. She cannot read Simon's intention to attack Jubal in time to prevent it, hell it looks like she never saw it coming!
Reading Ruby in "Safe" is not a top-speed process, reading the village leader is also a relatively slow puzzling out of images, rather than a top-speed "You are a murderer" accusation.

River's reading takes its own time, and I doubt she had fully sussed out what he was about to do, like in "Objects in space", with the added factor of possibly not knowing that it could be done. If she had known that tv screens would trigger her, I doubt she would have stared at one, too.

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In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

She's fighting Reavers, there. That's pretty much a positive step no matter what side you're on.

And I doubt that they programmed a "no fighting the Alliance" safety measure into her, considering that the greatest part of the Alliance has no idea her program even exists, making them just as likely targets as anyone else. In fact, I doubt they created a mind-reading super-weapon to use on backwater Independent freedom fighter pockets. She was probably for use within the Alliance, to begin with.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

No. Killing takes less time than non-lethal subduing.

Quote:

I don't think any of this speaks for a conscious restraint.

Quote:

Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

Not really. For all we know, the first few syllables already trigger a readines to receive the phrase, and in the split second before Simon starts speaking, River is probably still busy processing the situation. This is the greatest amount of physical danger she is in, in the entire fight sequence, because this time someone at a distance has the weapon on her and she doesn't have cover. She's good, but she's also human. Maybe she was busy feeling out Mal's readiness to shoot.

Quote:

One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.

Why would the gun be empty?

Why would she not shoot Mal? What reason? Nobody else could get a gun aimed at her before she took them out, regardless of distance. I don't think anybody even got off any gun shot. Mal had no chance if she was in kill mode and had a round (even without a gun, she would have killed him if she was in kill mode.)

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Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.

There is no evidence that River processes other people's thougths and feelings at top speed, especially those more complex than "I point a gun at you!". In "War Stories", she used her physical vision to make out where her opponents are and "did the math".

River's reading takes its own time, and I doubt she had fully sussed out what he was about to do, like in "Objects in space", with the added factor of possibly not knowing that it could be done. If she had known that tv screens would trigger her, I doubt she would have stared at one, too.

Quote:

In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

In many eps, River is heavily medictaed, mentally in a fog. After Ariel, and by the time of BDM, her meds are more balanced and she is supposedly less foggy. Her "sussing out" time should be less.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

No. Killing takes less time than non-lethal subduing.

At that moment? Why? How could she have more effectively killed him at that moment, instead of settling for knocking him out?

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Quote:

Why would the gun be empty?

Why would she not shoot Mal? What reason? Nobody else could get a gun aimed at her before she took them out, regardless of distance. I don't think anybody even got off any gun shot. Mal had no chance if she was in kill mode and had a round (even without a gun, she would have killed him if she was in kill mode.)

Because Mal could just as easily have shot her. We have been arguing that River was not in "Kill" mode, but rather in "disable" mode. We do not see the exact command she is given, so all this "kill" is a big assumption. She kills some, mildly subdues others.

The sequence of the stand-off is not actually all that stretched out. They grab guns, whirl, point, stand and already Simon says the trigger word. River was trying to point the gun at him before he could, but they caught each other simultaneously. New plan necessary. No cover. And she knows Mal is a good shot. One split-second of hesitation doesn't necessarily need to a big explanation about conscious restraint here.

Quote:

In many eps, River is heavily medictaed, mentally in a fog. After Ariel, and by the time of BDM, her meds are more balanced and she is supposedly less foggy. Her "sussing out" time should be less.

Post-Ariel, River is calmer, but not necessarily much less foggy. The medications work on and off, as Simon explains, the best example is "Objects in Space" where she suddenly finds a gun in her hand. Most of my examples were, in fact, post-Ariel, notable "War Stories" and "Objects in Space". In fact, even in the movie during the bank heist, her reading takes a few moments until she can point out the trouble-maker. It takes her a few moments to fully place the exact nature of the Reaver attack while a whole bunch of them have already descended on the town. Note her confused look before the Reaver attacks the woman and the horror throws her back.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:23 PM

Alright, I just checked my Visual Companion and during story time, Zoë asks if anyone was killed during the fight and Mal replies, "It's likely, I know she meant to kill me, 'fore the Doc put her to sleep".

River clearly saw Mal as a mortal threat and pulled the gun creating the dramatic stand-off. She would have shot him. The pause is there to show Mal's hesitation (the look on his face when she falls is one of pity), before Simon starts with the safe phrase.

And Jayne grabs her from behind, making physical contact; she renders him unconscious, suggesting it wasn't a kill order, but a subduing order.

I think stage direction or artistic license, or whatever, is at work here and not an effort to show River having recognition or discretion for Mal or Jayne.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:31 PM

Colour me one who thinks her pause is one of resistance to programming, however slight.

Don't make me sleep Chrisisall

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.

This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

I mean really. I love tearing the details apart as much as anyone, but this is a movie. Things have to be done to make it work. Main characters can't have broken bones unless there's a handy Star Trekkian bone mender on hand.

As far as the River/Mal standoff - I always figured she would have shot him, and to be honest, it bugged me. I'd much prefer to think that she was holding herself back, just so the pause isn't two actors waiting for the third to deliver his rather lengthy line. (Couldn't the safe word have just been shorter?)

I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

Anyway, as for evidence that River was holding back - no need to get fancy with precog theories and such. There's that shot of her face when she aims at Mal. What's her expression there? I'm recalling that her eyes are focused, like she's really seeing him. Perhaps she even looks a little freaked as she realizes what she's doing. In the rest of the fight, she's expressionless and cool. If she looks different in this shot, there's your tell-tale.

I'll have to check the DVD tonight, because I can't remember!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.
This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

There is that, but he did get hit be a table - straight to the face/head. The only reason he was alive after that was because he is crew. ("Zombie" is probably worse than "injured guy on crutches" for firefly.)

Quote:
I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

That roll makes me cringe. Here's hoping in the rerelease of Firefly that Jewel Staite mentioned, they do something about it.

On the other hand there is also the (unnecessary) overuse of the number 8 (lucky for some) that some peeps on here uncovered last year... no one is perfect.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, April 3, 2008 4:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.
This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

There is that, but he did get hit be a table - straight to the face/head. The only reason he was alive after that was because he is crew. ("Zombie" is probably worse than "injured guy on crutches" for firefly.)

Quote:
I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

That roll makes me cringe. Here's hoping in the rerelease of Firefly that Jewel Staite mentioned, they do something about it.

On the other hand there is also the (unnecessary) overuse of the number 8 (lucky for some) that some peeps on here uncovered last year... no one is perfect.

8 equals luck for Chinese. The Verse is resultant of partially Chinese colonization. Use of 8 (and I think 1 is important also) would be not only reasonable and expected, but unusual if they were absent.

NBZ

Friday, April 4, 2008 1:44 PM

No, I think this more personal to Joss than Firefly. I am not talking about the use of 8 in the Firefly culture. The discussion around "8" that was on this board also found similar instances in Angel/Buffy if I remember correctly.

The three I can remember in Firefly are:

1. Time Inara had been on ship
2. How long Simon took to complete his education.
3. How long the Tams had been on board the ship when the BDM took place.

All three cases are 8 months. Not much an of an issue, but the third one has to be fudged when making a Firefly timeline fit. (Either that date, or other dates used in the series)

In earlier drafts of the BDM Miranda also had 8 million residents. Course that would not be lucky...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 7, 2008 5:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
No, I think this more personal to Joss than Firefly. I am not talking about the use of 8 in the Firefly culture. The discussion around "8" that was on this board also found similar instances in Angel/Buffy if I remember correctly.

The three I can remember in Firefly are:

1. Time Inara had been on ship
2. How long Simon took to complete his education.
3. How long the Tams had been on board the ship when the BDM took place.

All three cases are 8 months. Not much an of an issue, but the third one has to be fudged when making a Firefly timeline fit. (Either that date, or other dates used in the series)

1. - Inara said 8 months in TTJ. Inara also said "a year" in OiS.

3. - BDM script says 8 months from River's escape to Operative at Institute and 8 months Tams on board Serenity.

Only fudging neede is from Inara in Bushwhacked, telling Alliance she was aboard a year - about 6 months before saying the same in OiS.

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