Simon in a father role?

POSTED BY: MerryK
UPDATED: Monday, October 15, 2007 16:07
VIEWED: 8723
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I recently posted a Simon-centric fic set right after the Serenity pilot, and in it I had this passage:

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Simon stood for a moment in silence. He had spoken to men in medacad, men who were married and starting families of their own, who had talked about the wonders of fatherhood. They talked of a moment when they first held their child, when they realized that they were responsible for a helpless little life, and that the love that they felt made the burden seem more than bearable. Simon had even tended to men in the ER, fathers who had thrown themselves in harm’s way to save their child. It had not seemed unnatural at the time, but it struck him now that he had never fully understood that kind of love until now.

And that thought was troubling to him. He did not want to be River’s father, to take on that role. All he had ever wanted was to rescue her so that they could live a relatively normal if hidden life away from trouble. She was his mei mei, that was all—and here he was in a situation where he had to behave like her father.

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Any thoughts?

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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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I take we we are to discuss whether we agree with this assessment, content-wise? :)


It seems odd to me that the text suggests that Simon suddenly realizes that his love for River goes beyond that of most sibling relationships, or that it suddenly occurs to him that he is carrying more responsibility than he should.

I think these two things have always defined his relationship with River. That's why it's he who recognizes her messages. It's why he gives up his entire life to rescue her, and I think he was always very aware of the kind of responsibility he might be facing should he succeed.

Take "Safe". River says he found her broken. He says everything he has is right there, without a touch of regret to it. He is at peace with his sacrifices.

I can understand wanting to address the strain on Simon's life, but trying to do it by some external distinction between "brother" and "father" is probably not the way.

Giving actual examples of conflict between the two of them that have Simon overwhelmed might be a better approach, because I don't see him ever letting go of that responsibility he chose unless he has to.

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this is a very interesting post:)

.... i might have second thoughts but - just to start...

A)
i don't find it strange that Simon has not thought about his feelings for River - he just FEELS them... they are probably the only thing he does not mentally categorise and order. Both siblings have the urge to do this - but River's sense of order/meaning has become fractured and multi-dimensional.

so the reality of his 'role' would surprise him somewhat! Especially as for a long time his principle 'role' was just the RESCUER - the HERO. A role most likely developed since childhood games and creative past-times, (i can imagine them like the precocious Bronte children).

To that effect, this quote (from your text):

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He did not want... to take on that role. All he had ever wanted was to rescue her...

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reads very authentically.

compare it with River from the television script of Dead or Alive:

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And then the beautiful princess got
tired of waiting for her handsome
prince and tried to escape...

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some might argue that rational old simon would not share River's faery tale vision. they might be right... but as SAFE shows - the game playing they were known for was mutual and long-lasting. Even whilst in the academy, Regan and Gabriel dismiss River's codes as the sort of game Simon and her would still be playing .

The breakout scenes in the BDM show very much this noble prince/knight aspect of him.

The negative side of this is that as a caveat to the Operative's statement "It's Love..." must be added, that on some level therefore, it is ALSO A GAME. Simon can be recklessly brave because on some psychological level - it is just a fairy story. Again i must stress that both Tam children would seem to share this view.

But firefly is all about growth - so Simon dealing with the mature reeality of his situation (his ROLE) would be plausible enough.

B)

Gabriel Tam is the master of his house - that much is clear. He may actually have weaknesses - but the petty power over his family would SEEM to be complete - until Simon challenges it. They are battling over possession of the daughter - the son seeking to supplant the father. He actually succeeds. The definition of his role and relationship to River is immediately blurred.

He is not, after all, his father's son for nothing. He often tries to dismiss River's fancies or 'sight' (whatever) - it is because he seeks to reassure her, to lessen her pain - but it is a dismissal nonetheless - and River always sticks firmly to her fears as a result. This would seem to be a family pattern continuing down the generations.

Of course - after only one season of Firefly - the development of their relationship is muted - and fics can be speculative. It seems right however, that at some point the issue of letting go would raise its head. The closest we come to this is in the BDM when Simon and Mal argue for the possession of River before the vault raid. Mal is (natch) a very paternal figure.

the question then becomes - to what extent has Simon DECIDED to parent River. It is sub-conscious/intuitive - or do his clashes with Gabriel and Mal show a conscious desire to be a surrogate father?

which takes back to your fic!:)

jinkies - what a LONG post!
um, sorry...

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I'm looking for opinions on how Simon sees his role to River, rather than how it is. I think we all as viewers recognized a little parental care in how Simon treats River (for example how he behaves around her in the first flashback of Safe and then the following first scene in real time), but that doesn't mean he notices.

I don't think Simon really thought it all through when he rescued River. Not in a physical sense...he had ways and means to get her safely away, and apparently live in secret on some other world. He planned to keep her from the Alliance—but after that, what was he planning? He didn't know that River would be brain-damaged until he got to the Academy, and he didn't know the extent until after she was rescued. He might have been prepared to give up everything to keep her safe, but I doubt he imagined that he'd have to keep a constant eye on her. I think he was expecting for them to live together on some world, where he could be a doctor, and she could do what she wanted, and just stay out of the way of the Alliance. The sort of living Mal wanted after the war was lost, just sans spaceships.

So I don't think Simon was prepared to take on the role that he ends up having to perform— as father to River. The moment I quoted from my story comes after a long night of River needing constant care and attention, the sort of care that parents, not siblings, end up doing. Since this is the night after Mal invites the Tams to stay on Serenity, it's very early on, but I could also see scenarios where Simon doesn't ever realize exactly what his relationship to River is.

I like your comments on the fantasy aspect of the River/Simon relationship, Wytchcroft. As an idealist, I think it's very likely that Simon unconsciously had slightly a hero and/or martyr complex. Not that his care and devotion weren't also real, but that there was some romanticizing of it all. For idealists, I know from experience, the romanticizing of life makes things easier to handle, and when those things include a mentally ill sister, that romanticizing is probably one of the few things keeping Simon sane. The comparison to the Bronte children is one that I had thought of before, and I think it also fits.

Agentrouka, you bring up Safe in your post. I'm dealing with Simon and River right after Serenity the pilot, so only a day after Simon has seen River for the first time in two years. At this point, I think a lot of things are going to come "suddenly" to him. It's not that he regrets his choice to rescue River, it's that he's uncomfortable at the moment with the idea that he's taken on the responsibility that Gabriel should have had. Definitely by Safe he has come to grips with that idea.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Originally posted by MerryK:
I'm looking for opinions on how Simon sees his role to River, rather than how it is.

I don't think Simon really thought it all through when he rescued River. Not in a physical sense...He planned to keep her from the Alliance—but after that, what was he planning?

I think he was expecting for them to live together on some world, where he could be a doctor, and she could do what she wanted, and just stay out of the way of the Alliance.

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which would be a fantasy of course.

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I like... the fantasy aspect of the River/Simon relationship...
As an idealist, I think it's very likely that Simon unconsciously had slightly a hero and/or martyr complex.

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.............

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when those things include a mentally ill sister, that romanticizing is probably one of the few things keeping Simon sane.

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River is mentally altered -we would see this as 'injured' - the alliance would disagree - not mentally ill*... which is more than a semantic difference.

In fact in a number of ways River is more personally 'advanced' than Simon since she moves in the space between object and meaning... memory and actuality.

(As Delirium does in Neil Gaiman's Sandman which was clearly an influence - and in turn was a portrait of Kathy Acker and her writings.

And as the messianic figures of Frank Herbert's Dune do also, once they have embraced and mastered such a perspective, including holding the memories of others - and the power it can bring)

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but I could also see scenarios where Simon doesn't ever realize exactly what his relationship to River is.

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agreed! which is why it's such a shame that the crucial 'i'm going to marry simon' scene in 'our mrs reynolds' got cut - darn it:)

because it shows Simon realising that he has never stopped to consider the nature of their relationship.

....................

ok nuff heavy stuff - your perspective, in terms of your fic DEFINITELY stand up it is coherent, thought out and engaging but it also YOURS.

e.g.

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He didn't know that River would be brain-damaged until he got to the Academy, and he didn't know the extent until after she was rescued.

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probably - (but not necessarily. we don't even know with certainty the what, why, when and where of the 'Academy') - you are following a reasonable assumption based on the scant and frequently subjective evidence of what we've seen.

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I'm dealing with Simon and River right after Serenity the pilot, so only a day after Simon has seen River for the first time in two years.

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speculation - the gap of time between break out - River being frozen - and simon's entry to Serenity is unknown. The only dating i know of is the novelisation stating a number of months bewteen break out and the operative being commisioned. - it was checking this fact (i asked some other fic writers as well as reading up) that lead me to write 'Runners' set before firefly.

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At this point, I think a lot of things are going to come "suddenly" to him. It's not that he regrets his choice to rescue River, it's that he's uncomfortable at the moment with the idea that he's taken on the responsibility that Gabriel should have had.

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if we use your timeline (and it's feasible enough)then yes, absolutely!:).

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Definitely by Safe he has come to grips with that idea.

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and decided what?

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not sure i've added or argued anything helpful in regard to your original post! LOL!

but i will just restate that your BSR piece (which i really enjoyed) holds together well - you are right to talk about the long night Simon has endured and the effects this might have had.

*not demeaning your experience, or the writers perogative of drawing upon such things.

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Well, you're quite right. It's pretty much impossible to write about Simon and River entirely within canon—any thoughts an author gives them, or any meaning an author gives to the lines they say and the moves they make in a scene, must come to opinion. I go with the novelization/movie scenario of Simon rescuing River, partly because I saw the movie first and thought it still made perfect sense after watching the series, but also because I think it makes the best sense dramatically.

I would beg to differ about River's condition. She is altered, yes, but you cannot ignore that parts of her brain have been removed that should never have been. Her brain is damaged and injured, and that damage manifests in various levels of real-life mental illnesses such as paranoid schizophrenia.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Originally posted by MerryK:
It's pretty much impossible to write about Simon and River entirely within canon—any thoughts an author gives them, or any meaning an author gives to the lines they say and the moves they make in a scene, must come to opinion.

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fun tho' aint it!:)

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