Chiquita banana pays death squads...
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, August 27, 2007 09:57
VIEWED: 12942
PAGE 1 of 2
... and other outrages.
Quote:Meanwhile, in Minnesota...
Friday, July 20, 2007 : The Cincinnati-based fruit company Chiquita is being sued for funding, arming and supporting death squads in Colombia... Part of the lawsuit is not in dispute. Earlier this year Chiquita admitted one of its subsidiaries paid about $1.7 million to the right-wing paramilitary group United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia which is also known as the AUC. The group is considered a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department.
Quote:This man was so committed to not raising gas taxes (the first proposed increase in 20 years) that he starved ALL bridge repairs. In addition, Bush and the Feds ran away from responsibility for repairing this FEDERAL bridge. The latest article in the Minneapolis Tribune Public anger will follow our sorrow www.startribune.com/10204/story/1339911.html
Gov. Tim Pawlenty may lift his ulong-held opposition to raising Minnesota’s gasoline tax if he calls a special legislative session, as expected, following a deadly Minneapolis bridge collapse.
People are so buried in pro-corporate ideology that they don't even see actual, real-world problems.
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Always look upstream.
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Figures. Blame Bush. Never mind that this bridge orginally was known to have a probolem since back in 1990. How a State spends, or fails to spend its funds is a State matter, not the office of the President.
Quote:
"We chose the inspection route. In May we began inspections," Dan Dorgan, the state's top bridge engineer, said. "We thought we had done all we could, but obviously something went terribly wrong."
Dorgan said there was enough money in the agency's budget to pay for construction work on the underside of the bridge. But he and Gov. Tim Pawlenty acknowledged that transportation officials will face tough questions about the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990.
"We will absolutely get to the bottom of this," Pawlenty said. "There were a lot of decisions made, a lot of judgment calls made, and they're all going to have to be critically reviewed."
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1339411.html
This is nothing more than BIG, BUREAUCRATIC Gov't, once again passing the buck to YOU the tax payer, while playing the game of CYA. Unable to account for the BILLIONS of tax $$$'s wasted over decades of abuse, waste , corruption and ineptitude, they'll intentionally point the finger an anyone but themselves, and cry about not having enough funding. Horse hockey!
Get a gorram clue.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Chiquita's feat is disgusting, but likely more common than we care to admit. Unless the case is that Chiquita was trying to get specific action from the squads, like as much is was 'protection' money. "Back in the day" (at least, I like to think the mob is fairly well broken in this regards, I could be wrong), substantial numbers of business folk in the bigger east coast city's 'paid the mob.' I would -hope- a company this big would 'fight back' against such things, but I'm willing to boycott Chiquita for at least a few months for failing to have a back bone and stand against them.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/20/1420235
'At the time Chiquita defended its actions saying it fell victim to an extortion racket that threatened its employees.'
I believe even =if= that is the reason, they should have found a better way.
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Re: bridge collapse; as much as I enjoy blaming Bush for things, I have to agree this has to be a problem which falls at a more local level. Local inspection teams, and perhaps more importantly, who ever set local priorities. IFF it turns out it was properly prioritized, but insufficient funds were available for bridge work, then I lean toward blaming the state Gov. for not allocating enough money toward bridge maintenance; or (if you want to look at it the other way) of mismanaging the money so there was not enough for bridge maintenance.
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and other outrages
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/070805/K080502AU.html
" SURF CITY, N.J. (AP) - The Army Corps of Engineers, which accidentally dumped sand filled with old military ordnance on Surf City's beach, now wants the town to help pay to remove it.
Local officials are angered by the suggestion that they should help foot the bill for a federal goof that already has cost the town an unknown amount of tourism business. "
better call Haliburton... lol
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Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.
Quote:www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.
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Always look upstream.
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I fail to see how this surprises you Siggy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company
They've got a bit of a history for such behavior, wiki's a lot nicer to em on that front than they oughta be.
At least it's supporting the local economy, cause really, what's the difference between the right-wing stormtroopers of the AUC, and the right-wing stormtroopers of Blackwater, save for geographical location ?
(If you know *anything* about Blackwater, you'll understand why this comparison is made)
The AUC was prolly cheaper to hire, too.
Not sayin it's a very nice thing, mind you, but a goon squad is a goon squad, and whether the state dept likes em or not, has more to do with whos side we're on this week than anything else.
How many current "Terrorists" were once US allies funded with taxpayer money, eh ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Hi!
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.Quote:www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.
Thanks for providing the link to this, documents my point exactly:
"The federal government provides 80 percent of the money for construction, repair and maintenance of the so-called federal-aid highway system including Interstate highways and bridges. But states set priorities and handle construction and maintenance contracts."
So to quote you " This man [State Governor] was so committed to not raising gas taxes (the first proposed increase in 20 years) that he starved ALL bridge repairs. "
So, as I said, prioritization problems, to say the least. So combine a Governor who has starved "ALL" bridge repairs, the fact that the -state- sets the prioritization... I'm sorry, please explain how -Bush- is responsible for this.
Also, if you feel that there's not enough 'waste' in the federal money stream to come up with the missing 15 billion also mentioned in the article, then please don't moan about tax increases.
Edit: I know it's a bad day when I post something defending Bush.
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Consider $5/year to support FFF: http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/pay/T39WWCGS4JYCV4
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.Quote:www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.
At the risk of repeating myself, I'm finding myself forced to repeat myself. Perhaps reading this a 2nd time will allow its meaning to sink in.
Or not.
" Dorgan said there was enough money in the agency's budget to pay for construction work on the underside of the bridge. But he and Gov. Tim Pawlenty acknowledged that transportation officials will face tough questions about the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990."
Oh, and did anyone catch that part at the end of the sentence ?? Where it says -
" ...the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990. "
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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The Federal Gov't gives the states about $ 60 billion a year for transportation. Trouble is then what the states do with it...fixing bridges?...Naw...in W. Virginia, for example, everything built there says Robert Byrd...as in... Robert Byrd Turnpike, Robert Byrd Tunnel, Robert Byrd Arena, Robert Byrd Endangered Turtle Preserve, Robert Byrd Ku Klux Klan Memorial Center, Robert Byrd Mensa Studies Library, Robert Byrd Business School of Pork Barrel Corruption, and on and on....all states have their own Robert Byrds...but yes...of course, President Bush is at fault for Minneapolis...for the money he's spent in Iraq, the Govt. could have hired 12,575 un-employed recently-raised minimum wage workers to actually just stand there all day, every day, and hold up the bridge by hand, all while singing We Are The World together while scraping their weathered skin away to send in to Washington for stem-cell extraction and implantation into Dennis Kucinich's upper vertabrae to hopefully grow an adult body and spine.
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Can you say 'gloss over'?
Neo-cons are fine with goon squads. Chiquita was just defending it's interests- it's business, nothing more. Death is a part of life...and profits, it would seem. Law of the jungle. All is well.
Semi-disgusted Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
cause really, what's the difference between the right-wing stormtroopers of the AUC, and the right-wing stormtroopers of Blackwater, save for geographical location ?
Blackwater actually designs cool new toys?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_APC
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After doing some research on Minnesota Bridge responsibility I've come up with the following: The system is broken as much as the bridge. Gov Pawlenty has a lot of blame on his shoulders, as do the Minnesota Legislature Republicans. But Congress bears the largest part, since they are the biggest source of funds. And it all boils down to pork. http://wonkette.com/politics/you-did-this-dept/everyone-at-fault-in-br
idge-disaster-285844.php
What this article is telling me (besides the fact that money talks, which I already knew) is that if we do "politics as usual" our politicians can't keep their eyes on the ball for the time it takes to actually locate, scope, design, and build a bridge. If we're going to do infrastructural repair, it has to either be on a priority basis- the way Eisenhower had the interstates built
Quote:www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm
Title I of the 1956 Act increased the System's proposed length to 41,000 miles. It also called for nationwide standards for design of the System, authorized an accelerated program, established a new method for apportioning funds among the States, changed the name to the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways, and set the Federal Government's share of project cost at 90 percent.
...or (my personal fave) we fix the system by taking essentially technical decisions out of the hands of politicians.
I fault GWB, Republicans specifically of being so "pro-business" and anti-government that they won't allow the government to even carry out it's day to day functions. You want government strangled in bathtub? Fine. Get used to falling bridges and tainted food, because unless someone is out there with a whip hand over industry, they'll go for the least-cost highest-margin path.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I fault GWB, Republicans specifically of being so "pro-business" and anti-government that they won't allow the government to even carry out it's day to day functions. You want government strangled in bathtub? Fine. Get used to falling bridges and tainted food, because unless someone is out there with a whip hand over industry, they'll go for the least-cost highest-margin path.
.
Of COURSE you blame Bush! No shocker there. Hell, screw the facts, you'd rather deal in glossed over generalities, " pro-business / anti Gov't " rhetoric. You cite Wonkette as a " source " ? This oh so serious of bloggers who makes Michael Moore look like a legitimate direcotr of documentary films. Color me unimpressed. The problem with you and your kind is that you love Gov't too much. I'd remind you what one of our founders said.....
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
Just as was the case w/ the levees around New Orleans, the primary fault w/ the collapse of the 35W bridge lies w/ the state and local gov'ts , and not the office of the President. Stop using national tragedies as political hit pieces. It's woefully dishonest, false, and does nothing but divide us even further.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I have done some looking around, but no luck. Has anyone found if MN had allocated sufficient State funds to get their full federal highway 'match'? More exactly, I'd be interested to know if they did so in the years 2000-2005 (funding later than that would probably have been too late to avoid this catastrophe). If not, then I would be obliged to say that the fault lies plainly with MN State Government.
I will concede that congress does too much pork. I recall that wonderful bridge they want to build in Alaska to join some islands that they estimate will get a few cars a day across it. Those millions could easily have funded a lot of needed repairs elsewhere. Heres $200,000,000 we could have used elsewhere... http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000054.html
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I hate to say it but my outsiders point of view would put this on the state government. While Federal funding for upkeep is a real issue, inspection is done through the state. If it wasn't safe they SHOULD have closed it then raised a stink about funding pointing at the Feds. By not doing this, they own most of this.
So the message to other state govs, when safety is in doubt shut it down.
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Quote:If it makes you feel any better, I blame you, too!
Of COURSE you blame Bush!
Quote:Wait! That's MY line! THIS from the guy who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him in the *ss? Well at least now I'm gonna feel perfectly justified crucifying you every time you ignore facts, seeing as you're such a factual person.
Hell, screw the facts
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Always look upstream.
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Gino, it's a little more complicated than that.
On the one hand, you have a bridge that's "structurally deficient" and show signs of cracks due to metal fatigue etc. On the other hand, you have all the expense and disruption of making major repairs or even replacing a bridge.
Now, if there were enough money right way to repair or replace, the decision to do that becomes easier. Id there is REALLY more than enough money, then you can afford to put the replacement on an expedited basis: pay overtime, work stuff in parallel even if it means some duplication of effort etc. and the decision becomes a LOT easier.
As a technical person in an air pollution regulatory agency (one I might add that is quite corrupt) I've seen how the stops can be pulled out for senseless projects, while important work goes begging. The money is always there for the stuff "they" want.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Gino, it's a little more complicated than that.
On the one hand, you have a bridge that's "structurally deficient" and show signs of cracks due to metal fatigue etc. On the other hand, you have all the expense and disruption of making major repairs or even replacing a bridge.
Now, if there were enough money right way to repair or replace, the decision to do that becomes easier. Id there is REALLY more than enough money, then you can afford to put the replacement on an expedited basis: pay overtime, work stuff in parallel even if it means some duplication of effort etc. and the decision becomes a LOT easier.
As a technical person in an air pollution regulatory agency (one I might add that is quite corrupt) I've seen how the stops can be pulled out for senseless projects, while important work goes begging. The money is always there for the stuff "they" want.
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Always look upstream.
Well, my background... years ago I apprenticed as a aircraft maintenance engineer and in that field ( in Canada anyway ) you find something wrong, you write it up and it either gets fixed on the spot, it gets examined and defered by a higher authority ( in my case we called Boeing, sent photos, etc and they issued a waiver ) or the aircraft is removed from service until one of the first two happen. I cant see how you can have anything fail a safety inspection, then let it go until it fails killing people. In the aircraft industry the civil suits would extend to whomever signed off the aircraft into service, and I think the same sort of rules should apply in this case.
And if money was the issue, the expense and disruption of a closure are likely sure ways of forcing the issue into having the cash found. And I am sure we could agree that would be alot cheaper than a failure.
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Quote:Personally, you've 'capped' this issue for me. I agree 100%; local authorities should have spotted this and closed the bridge (or put appropriate load limits, but I suspect the only way to have done this safely is to close it) until funding caught up.
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I hate to say it but my outsiders point of view would put this on the state government. While Federal funding for upkeep is a real issue, inspection is done through the state. If it wasn't safe they SHOULD have closed it then raised a stink about funding pointing at the Feds. By not doing this, they own most of this.
So the message to other state govs, when safety is in doubt shut it down.
Then folks could have whined to their hearts content about the funding side until -that- got corrected.... though I suspect the state would have -reprioritized- and the closure of -this- bridge never would have happened (though it might have caused enough other things to delay that -those- delays (or closures of less critical routes) still would have ended up with a lot of unhappy folks complaining about funding problems.
Edit: Here's a thought. This bridge got low ratings; known problems. What if we require a sign to be posted before all bridges which have a quality low enough that they fall into the 2 year or less inspection cycle requirement of what the bridge rating was? Maybe those folks would have chosen to stop using this '50 %' bridge if they had known?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:If it makes you feel any better, I blame you, too!
Of COURSE you blame Bush!
Of course you do. It makes about as much sense.
Quote:Quote:Wait! That's MY line! THIS from the guy who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him in the *ss? Well at least now I'm gonna feel perfectly justified crucifying you every time you ignore facts, seeing as you're such a factual person.
Hell, screw the facts
I just obliterated you and your fact CHALLENGED position on this issue. You blamed Bush for this catastrophy, when the FACTS clearly showed that a) This bridge was deemed a problem since 1990 and b) the State HAS THE FUNDS, now , to address this specific problem, but still failed to act. Bush, as am I, remain blameless.
Them's the facts. Get over your petty insecurities, you bias, and face reality.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:While I tend to agree with you on who's fault the bridge collapse was, I have to ask two things:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bush, as am I, remain blameless.
What about the Chiquita death squads?
In what kind of English is the quoted sentance above acceptable?
Cantankerous Chrisisall
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1990 - wasn't that George HW's reign ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
"George Herbert Walker Bush (born June 12, 1924) was the forty-first President of the United States, serving from 1989 to 1993."
There was a starting swell of "Blame Clinton" from the right until it was pointed out that 1990 was George HW's reign. So the whole idea of Federal responsibility was ditched in right-wing world b/c it would put the blame on dubya. So they had to move it to a state problem.
You have to admit one thing about Rap - he does his right-wing homework and keeps up with the right-wing talking points very well.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I ran across this so I thought I'd throw it in here:
http://www.gcn.com/print/26_19/44770-1.html
... and growing concerns about how much government work is being farmed out to contractors. Spending on government contracts has nearly doubled during the past six years, from $219 billion to $415 billion.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Interesting article, www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/us/07highway.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=
th
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Auraptor, I've spent some time learning about shared (ie Federal and State) responsibility for interstate tranportation systems. What I've learned is that the responsibilty is indeed shared, and unfortunately "shared" responsibility often means no accountability.
Them's the facts. Get over your petty insecurities, you bias, and face reality
And like many looming crises (IT policies and purchases, pollution control strategy, education techniques, disease control etc.) infrastructural integrity would benefit from relatively straighforward technical decisions, but politicians often manage to take over and "micromamage" the budget to their benefit. (And boy, does that chap my *ss because our agency budget has turned into a piggy-bank.)
For my part, what I'd like to see is "boards" turned out on the street en masse, and agencies run by staff. The staff would develop a budget and program, and put it to popular vote. I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
1990 - wasn't that George HW's reign ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
"George Herbert Walker Bush (born June 12, 1924) was the forty-first President of the United States, serving from 1989 to 1993."
There was a starting swell of "Blame Clinton" from the right until it was pointed out that 1990 was George HW's reign. So the whole idea of Federal responsibility was ditched in right-wing world b/c it would put the blame on dubya. So they had to move it to a state problem.
You have to admit one thing about Rap - he does his right-wing homework and keeps up with the right-wing talking points very well.
I'm unaware of which imaginary world you live in where " there was a starting swell of 'Blame Clinton' from the right". Regardless of who the President was then or is now, I maintain that it's primarily the state's responsibility to check and keep up their bridges. The Gov says they had the money, but still didn't act on it. Don't know how long they've had the $$, but it's clear the bureaucracy wasn't serving the people.
Just keep living in your partisan glass houses, and keep throwing those partisan rocks.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!
On that, we can agree.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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March 14th 2002.
Report Outlines Poor Condition of Nation’s Roads.
http://www.asce.org/pressroom/news/grwk/event_release.cfm?uid=1605
Here's another - October 23, 2005
http://www.worldtrademag.com/CDA/Articles/
LTL_and_Motor_Freight/589c170abaaf7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
(spaced to avoid screenwrap)
Some details of how federal funds are present, but so legislated and restricted in use that often state govs cannot apply them where and how they are needed.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=24811
Switch off Faux News, put down the Kool-Aid and read once in a while, and maybe you'd have something other than dittohead talking points to address the issues with, Asshat.
That bein said, one must also realize that I-35 means INTERSTATE 35, as in dual responsibility for maintainence and inspection, through a torturous tangle of red tape and assigned responsibilities and so much beauracratic bullshit defining what can be spent by whom, where and how - that not a rivet fucking falls but that it's plink is noted in quintuplicate, and then with a followup memo "Rivet, Wasteage: Query?".
I'd say 15 cents of that buck lands on shrubs shoestrings, and the remaining 85 on the state - no doubt they had the money, but from what I've seen here in MI, having the money means nothing compared to negotiating the tremendous levels of red tape and bullshit concerning any govt project.
It's one thing to say go and do it - yet another to write up the appropriations, get the bids, then go back through the bids and sort equal-opportunity/gov't quota bidders to the top, then fire and discard them when they can't deliver, then start over, and get someone on the job, deal with cost overruns, subcontractors with crummy crap that don't meet specs, rejecting and replacing them, more cost overruns, etc yadda.
It's not easy, from a Gov aspect - and almost impossible to do right by the very nature of the thing.
So blame the Gov, doesn't matter which, government is a problem of it's own making, and with only one solution, the unemployment of the incompetent.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Frem, this has nothing to do w/ FOX news, or W, despite your zealous adherence to claim the contrary. The Gov has admitted they had the money and they( the State Government )knew there was a problem w/ this bridge, but somehow the ball still got dropped. As much as you'd love for this to be an example of " how the Right hates Big Gov't", the fact is that we ALL should hate ineffective government! It makes little difference whether this was an INTER or INTRA state bridge, the fact still remains....those who use it the most and whose ability and obligation to check it and maintain the bridge were the STATE and LOCAL authorities. NOT THE FEDS. Do you HONESTLY think there's an office in Washington D.C. which cares more about, has more info on or knows what's best for the folks in anytown USA than the folks who LIVE there ??? Get fucking real! Where the 'shared' responsibilities come into play is in the funding. The state HAD the funds. This should be a wake up call for all the other State and local authorities across the country to stop the corruption, stop the graft, lining their own pocketbooks, the pork barrel trade offs and get back to doing the business of the PEOPLE!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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It's one thing to have the money, another to have it and not be able to use it cause it's earmarked for other stuff, or mired in red tape.
The WDOT is primary responsibility, and secondary is NTSB for not properly performing their oversight function, but since those rules and regs which sandbag the process were written by congress and approved by the exec, damn right imma throw some blame at them too.
And folks learn by example, government officials too - as long as it's ok for the upper end of the feddies to shovel pork to Haliburton/KBR, you really think the example that sets is gonna convince local officials to give up THEIR pork and sweetheart deals ?
It's rotten through and through in both parties, believe me, I'm well aware of it, I just get annoyed at screaming shills without a clue grabbing a party line and sticking to it even in the face of damned obvious realities, and I *will* mock for it, at every possible chance.
All that being said, my local politicos know imma ballbuster when it comes to such things, as we learned with "Elmer FUD" aka Elmer Parraghi, and the most recent round and round over the desired blank check to build an unneeded school building in another district by contracting their friends and relatives... 
And we're about to have another go-round cause now they want a blank check for police funding, in a town you could cover completely with three cops and a fekkin bicycle - fer cryin out loud you can quite literally SPIT from one end of this place to the other, and the most serious "crime" in recent history, other than minor vandalism, was the fekkin DHS/INS dragging our gas station owner out in the middle of the night and sending him god-knows-where, resulting in the closure and abandonment of our primarly local fuel stop and convenience store... Grrr 
And he was a decent guy too, ergo i'm quite pissed at the folk who make such an atmosphere of fear and loathing possible, so don't go expecting any mercy from me.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Bungling, or deliberate ?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ ylt=ArYWzK842Yc1_17vUOcEGGus0NUE
U.S. troop deaths up after drop in July
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070807/wl_afp/usattacksguantanamo_070807
174952;_ylt=Ahw8X_ YxYF53Boam8Qz100is0NUE
Britain seeks release of five Guantanamo inmates
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/ts_nm/sept11_damages_dc
Airlines seek FBI, CIA September 11 testimony
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/seafood_safety_failures;_ylt=Aqe3DSZvYXjuGu
LpxnL8oUys0NUE
AP: Seafood from China wasn't screened
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_us/bridge_collapse;_ ylt=Ahfk_nh1Rnp5THVZu8zjzius0NUE
Navy divers join Minn. bridge search
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_us/burn_bed_shortage;_ ylt=AilUTxH_jt9.3GfjuCyE_Eas0NUE
Hospitals are shutting down burn centers
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/us_nm/beaches_usa_dc;_ylt=AtqJ49zq
LUiSmPEBr8GrY.Ss0NUE
Pollution closes record number of beaches: study
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070807/wl_mideast_afp/iraqunrestusweapon
s_070807233839;_ ylt=AjUHMVDegbEBzo4TbU8.cCms0NUE
US commander says 190,000 missing US guns went to Iraqi forces
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Frem I gotta agree with you on something: It all starts at the top.
That kind of conclusion goes against my desire to see individualist/ populist movements setting the tone, but having survived three CEOs and about seven Directors, I can say for sure that the "culture" of an oragnization is inevitably set by the top echelon. If you have corrupt, smirking know-nothings at the top (as we do) that "message" is inevitably transmitted downwards. Rank and file does the best they can, but eventually they retire, quit, or are fired simply because they're not allowed to do a decent job.
I feel there's a rot in the heart of America, and that its best exemplified by Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rove, who lie, cheat, and steal every single day. But that's not letting Dems off the hook either.
There has GOT to be a better way!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:That's rich. Not ALLOWED to do a decent job? ROFLOL! Please. Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt. After that, all you've got is scapegoating to the Nth degree, all simply for partisan political bitching points.
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you have corrupt, smirking know-nothings at the top (as we do) that "message" is inevitably transmitted downwards. Rank and file does the best they can, but eventually they retire, quit, or are fired simply because they're not allowed to do a decent job.
Quote:Oh geeeze, how gracious of you.
I feel there's a rot in the heart of America, and that its best exemplified by Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rove, who lie, cheat, and steal every single day. But that's not letting Dems off the hook either.
Quote:
There has GOT to be a better way!
Clearly, there is.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Don't forget the ideology-blinded party-shill cheerleaders who enable em, either, Siggy.
I sure as hell won't.
-F
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SignyM & Auraptor....
I'm sure you are both not suprised to know that for completely different reasons, I think you're both wrong.
You're also both right...
Can we stop devoting ourselves mindlessly to one side or the other please? That's the real problem in this country. Everybody is so busy being either a Republican or a Democrat that the only thing getting accomplished is the slow death of the American way.
To quote Auraptor: "Just keep living in your partisan glass houses, and keep throwing those partisan rocks."
EDIT:
SignyM: "I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!"
Auraptor: "On that, we can agree."
Me: "My God! Does that make the three of us in agreement on something?"
There may yet be hope afterall.... 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Under the heading of other outrages ...
--------------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070808/ts_afp/chinaenvironment_070808124
624
China's white dolphin likely extinct
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070808/us_nm/young_uninsured_dc; _ylt=AqWYdAgBMnl06788PvW8WLWs0NUE
Young adults lead in lacking healthcare: report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/wl_nm/weather_un_extreme_dc; _ylt=AusUsNuepG_rBHNQyc8GwmOs0NUE
Early 2007 saw record-breaking extreme weather: U.N.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan_pakistan; _ylt=AuV5p3qximj7GPg3dlfqRPSs0NUE
Musharraf pulls out of peace council
http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/45361520831186582372; _ylt=AnPK_OAveQ3f5w9nPCFYRCphr7sF
Poll: Iraqis Oppose Oil Privatization
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/paying_for_vaccines;_ylt=AqZ9klFEeyxK22V9ka
6o5mhhr7sF
Some children shut out from vaccines
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070808/ts_nm/newyork_transport_dc
Flooding cripples New York's aging infrastructure
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdefensemilitaryiraq;_ylt=AqwkiEWmIyy46xN
pszAljC8DW7oF
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2143096,00.html
Bad call from a Wall Street king
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6835474,00.html
Repair Job Ruled Out in Steam Pipe Blast
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6835518,00.html
Montana Fire Crews in for Long Haul
--------------------------------
'Ya see Rap, this is what makes wrong-headed thinking wrong - the string of bad results that come of it. Ye shall know the tree by it's fruit - and so on.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Oh goody! This from the f*cktard who wants me to be "factual"! I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll be happy to start the crucifixion party later tonight, since you apparently prefer the view up your *ss to looking at facts.
That's rich. Not ALLOWED to do a decent job? ROFLOL! Please. Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt. After that, all you've got is scapegoating to the Nth degree, all simply for partisan political bitching points
Quote:6ix- Apparenty you have me mistaken for a partisan Dem. Why? I didn't voted for Bill, I'd rather cut off my right hand than vote for Hillary, I think most Dems are cowardly weasels who are so busy triangulating that they're utterly incapable of any action of consequence. The only f*cking partisan here is Auraptor, who is so friggin' in love with his hero that he can't see that GWB is as bad as any Dem in recent memory and in some ways a good deal worse. So don't you go shaking your finger at me, boy. You got me confused with someone else. Aim your sights where they really belong.
Can we stop devoting ourselves mindlessly to one side or the other please? That's the real problem in this country. Everybody is so busy being either a Republican or a Democrat that the only thing getting accomplished is the slow death of the American way.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Under the heading of other outrages ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdefensemilitaryiraq;_ylt=AqwkiEWmIyy46xN
pszAljC8DW7oF
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
While perusing your other linked articles, this one caught my attention. What point are you trying to make with this one?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.
But your support for all things 'left' and your ad hominal attacks would be sorley missed in RWED, so please stay.
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You really can't tell ???
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Under the heading of other outrages ...
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
While perusing your other linked articles, this one caught my attention. What point are you trying to make with this one?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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No, hence why I asked. The real question is do you?
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I'm going to take a wild guess that Rue thinks it is an outrage that despite some pretty obvious 'need' for this "US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq" that it has not been previously satisfied. If so, I tend to agree; I mean, road side bombs have been a threat for how long down there?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.
Let's review. Hitler, blamed Jews for miserable economy which Germany experienced from its involvement in WW1. Hitler tries to exterminate Jews.
Bush, keeping America safe from Islamic Terrorist for 6+ years sicne 9/11, while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.
Oh yeah. I see EXACTLY how you arrive at the 'Hitler' comparison.
Idiot.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
'Ya see Rap, this is what makes wrong-headed thinking wrong - the string of bad results that come of it. Ye shall know the tree by it's fruit - and so on.
Nothing you posted above had any connection to Bush, so I fail to see any point. It's beyond idiotic for you to even attempt to try to connect one to t'other.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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China's white dolphin likely extinct
short-sighted human goals, a warning example of short-term self-serving thinking
Young adults lead in lacking healthcare: report
more people than ever w/o health insurance in the US - not being dealt with
Early 2007 saw record-breaking extreme weather: U.N.
what global warming ?
Musharraf pulls out of peace council
our best friend and ally (aside from the Saudis)
Poll: Iraqis Oppose Oil Privatization
as opposed laws the US wrote for Iraq
Some children shut out from vaccines
oh, it's that health insurance thing again
Flooding cripples New York's aging infrastructure
under built dikes, exploding steam pipes, falling bridges, and now - flooding subways. You think somebody would do something.
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
STILL ????? didn't that get managed years ago ? Oh wait, I forget which administration I was talking about.
Bad call from a Wall Street king
the whole mortgage 'house of cards', you'd think there'd be some regulation
Repair Job Ruled Out in Steam Pipe Blast
it's that infrastructure thing, again.
Montana Fire Crews in for Long Haul
yeah, 'healthy forests' management that makes them even more fire prone, and, oh yes - what global warming ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.
Let's review. Hitler, blamed Jews for miserable economy which Germany experienced from its involvement in WW1. Hitler tries to exterminate Jews.
Bush, keeping America safe from Islamic Terrorist for 6+ years sicne 9/11, while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.
Oh yeah. I see EXACTLY how you arrive at the 'Hitler' comparison.
Idiot.
See, I disagree. 3,000 + US citizens dead in Iraq; that's not exactly keeping Americans safe... of course, it could be said the 3,000 killed in Iraq were not the victims of Islamic Terrorists, so I suppose you are exactly correct in your claim.
On the flip side, I'm not quite up to comparing Bush to Hitler, either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
STILL ????? didn't that get managed years ago ? Oh wait, I forget which administration I was talking about.
In your rush to condemn the Bush administration you forgot that you were against the war to begin with and it's endless monetary needs?
You just blamed Bush for not spending more money in Iraq instead of at home in areas like infrastructure, healthcare and the environment.
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"In your rush to condemn the Bush administration you forgot that you were against the war to begin with and it's endless monetary needs?"
My objection from years ago wasn't about the money, it was about the lies.
The billions that are being wasted are not being spent on the troops - god knows they get little enough in pay, equipment and support.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
god knows they get little enough in pay, equipment and support.
And haven't since 1865 - you'd think, in over 150 years of exactly the same lies, alibis and excuses, folks might learn that all those promises are bullshit, just ask the bonus marchers, yes ?
And while we're at it, isn't it ironic that attacking former US troops on US soil to smack them down for the FedGov is what made Patton and McArthur "made men" in the racket that is the war machine ?
Anyone damn fool enough to expect the military to actually hold up their end of all those promises after more than a century of it never, ever actually happening, I don't have a lotta sympathy for, sorry folks... but to expect it is just flat STUPID.
Still a disgrace, and one that rooks me quite badly, but the naivety of actually expecting your due from the military once they're done with you and treat you like the used kleenex they now regard you as once you are no longer of service to their war machine is just as much at fault.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
STILL ????? didn't that get managed years ago ? Oh wait, I forget which administration I was talking about.
In your rush to condemn the Bush administration you forgot that you were against the war to begin with and it's endless monetary needs?
You just blamed Bush for not spending more money in Iraq instead of at home in areas like infrastructure, healthcare and the environment.
What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town? The number one priority, as I see it, is to secure our future survival by using our resources to defeat those who so desperately want to kill all of us.
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Quote:Let's review. Bush, blamed Iraqis for miserable economy which U.S. experienced from its involvement in 9-11. Bush tries to exterminate Iraqis.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Let's review. Hitler, blamed Jews for miserable economy which Germany experienced from its involvement in WW1. Hitler tries to exterminate Jews.
Nope. No similarity at all.
Quote:But not safe from Katrina, illegal wiretapping, all children left behind...
Bush, keeping America safe from Islamic Terrorist for 6+ years sicne 9/11
Quote:do you have any proof? Cause I hadn't noticed...but then I make less than 100K per year...
while cutting taxes
Quote:I guess you could call it growth
increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.
I call it lack of visible shrinkage.Quote:Biped.
Idiot.
Chrisisall, seeing the proof in AU that this world is doomed if we ever have to rely on such peeps to save our planet...
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Quote:So, why don't we DO that???? Oh, we're too busy trying to bring 'democracy' to Iraq...
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The number one priority, as I see it, is to secure our future survival by using our resources to defeat those who so desperately want to kill all of us.
The ONLY way to defeat the 'idea' of terrorism is to make friends with the world, and let the generation who hates us die of old age. But shooting at them makes the military industrial complex more dough, so....
You f***ing morons and your one-answer approach to everything...destroy, kill, secure. Yeah, some asswipes have to be hunted down, but guess what? We won't do it, 'cause the biggest ones have MONEY!!!!
This whole thing is just a game, and peeps here don't see how WE ALL are being played.
A polite effue to all status-quo-lovers.
Gloves off Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[The ONLY way to defeat the 'idea' of terrorism is to make friends with the world, and let the generation who hates us die of old age.
You f***ing morons and your one-answer approach to everything...destroy, kill, secure.
If I didn't read this myself I don't think i could EVER have believed that anyone could say it. You have got to be kidding, right? Make friends??? Ok Mr. Chamberlin....spread you message of hope again to pre-WWII Poland, France, Holland, Greece, Romania, Czechloslovakia, etc etc etc etc etc.
And your use of disgusting vulgarity and insults is not really necessary, is it?...or is that all that you have left in your severely damaged brain?
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You know Rap and Jongsstraw, I have a secret for you: You will NEVER EVER be free of the threat of terrorism no matter HOW much effort you put into security.
Wow. Ain't that a bitch?
Look at Israel: they're unconstrained by our "rights" laws, have a universal military draft, issue AND USE internal passports and security checkpoints and (when necessary) curfews, have a wary and vigilant population, they look and sound just like their enemies, they even know the language... hell, they're even walling off a portion of land. They're obsessive about internal and border security. Except for literally locking down the entire country I can't think of anything else for them to do. And guess what? They still get blown up.
All it takes is a half-dozen not-so-smart people with a common grotch and they can blow up a Federal building.
It's obvious that you're mesmerized by the thought of terrorism. You guys will do anything, anything to make that fearful sick helpless feeling go away. And so in your case the terrorists have won 'cause baby, you're terrified past reason.
I know that you prolly think that everyone else is just drinkin' the Kool Aid, that nobody can see what you see, that nobody is responding with the 'appropriate" measure of concern, that we're all sitting around having fun while "they" take us down little by little... like the Eloi in The Time Machine ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi Nothing could be further from the truth. But YOU would do more damage our way of life than "the terrorists" could by ruining our economy and destroying our Constitution for the thought that we might be attacked some day, and badly damaged.
The FF didn't start this nation with the idea that it was going to be a "safe" thing to do, and the settlers and immigrants faced dangers that were every bit as ruinous and deadly as terrorism. So get over your PTSD, learn to live with the thought that not everyone loves the USA, and recognize that there are a LOT of dangers "out there" - many of them far more consequential than the "might maybe could" terrorist bogeymen that dominate your mental landscape.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Okay, pea-brain, now you're comparing Al-Queda to Nazi Germany? Ain't that a stretch? Are they gonna take over the world if not stopped?
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Make friends??? Ok Mr. Chamberlin....spread you message of hope again to pre-WWII Poland, France, Holland, Greece, Romania, Czechloslovakia, etc etc etc etc etc.
I propose that we STOP BLOWING PEEPS UP to prove what a great, peace-loving and kind nation we are. Bring medical aid, education, and friendship to those in need in all countries, regardless of oil rights, and see how that changes our 'need for security'...
Quote:Poopy-brained, toilet-drinking, fart producing, biped-butt-lickin' JERK!!!!!!!
And your use of disgusting vulgarity and insults is not really necessary, is it?
Real Mature Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know Rap and Jongsstraw, I have a secret for you: You will NEVER EVER be free of the threat of terrorism no matter HOW much effort you put into security.
Wow. Ain't that a bitch?
Look at Israel: they're unconstrained by our "rights" laws, have a universal military draft, issue AND USE internal passports and security checkpoints and (when necessary) curfews, have a wary and vigilant population, they look and sound just like their enemies, they even know the language... hell, they're even walling off a portion of land. They're obsessive about internal and border security. Except for literally locking down the entire country I can't think of anything else for them to do. And guess what? They still get blown up.
All it takes is a half-dozen not-so-smart people with a common grotch and they can blow up a Federal building.
It's obvious that you're mesmerized by the thought of terrorism. You guys will do anything, anything to make that fearful sick helpless feeling go away. And so in your case the terrorists have won 'cause baby, you're terrified past reason.
I know that you prolly think that everyone else is just drinkin' the Kool Aid, that nobody can see what you see, that nobody is responding with the 'appropriate" measure of concern, that we're all sitting around having fun while "they" take us down little by little... like the Eloi in The Time Machine ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi Nothing could be further from the truth. But YOU would do more damage our way of life than "the terrorists" could by ruining our economy and destroying our Constitution for the thought that we might be attacked some day, and badly damaged.
The FF didn't start this nation with the idea that it was going to be a "safe" thing to do, and the settlers and immigrants faced dangers that were every bit as ruinous and deadly as terrorism. So get over your PTSD, learn to live with the thought that not everyone loves the USA, and recognize that there are a LOT of dangers "out there" - many of them far more consequential than the "might maybe could" terrorist bogeymen that dominate your mental landscape.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
Kudos to your well-written piece SignyM, but your views of the world are vastly different than mine. Have a nice day.
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Jongsstraw- as always, I live to learn. What's your viewpoint?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:I'll say, d**kwad.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Kudos to your well-written piece SignyM, but your views of the world are vastly different than mine.
Chrisisall (having too much fun being vulgar at Jong's expense
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"What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town? "
What does this have to do with Iraq ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Not a damn thing, given that the most significant threats other than 9-11 have come exclusively from domestic sources, like McVeigh, Krar, etc.
Way I look at it, it's dangerous to be free, and if you have a problem with that go hire some contractor to build you a friggin bomb shelter, or even better, get yourself locked up for a felony, just don't bitch to me when the ventilation system quits and you suffocate, or your get pinned and shanked, right ?
Good heavens, you can trip on a damn curb, land at a bad angle and break you neck, why the fekk worry about it ?
Terrorists don't scare me, they're not in any way a *significant* threat to me, and anyone who tries and DOESN'T do for me is gonna meet their maker in short order, so why should I live MY life in fear of a possibility that ranks somewhere just under accidently drowning in a five gallon bucket ?
What scares me is people like our resident assclowns and the folk they help elevate to public office, cause they and their asinine security measures get in the way of my life and piss me off far more than any pissant mullah 3000 miles away could ever HOPE to do, and their laughably incompetent and politicized alphabet agency goons turning every american against each other and indirectly formenting a second civil war is a significant threat to me and mine.
Which set of terrorist assholes has more direct impact on the american people, the ones based in fallujah, or the ones based in washington dc ?
Other than the specific religion, is there at this point any real fucking difference between the two ?
Nope.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:What does this have to do with Iraq? Well, nothing, really.
What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town?
I want to talk about risk and panic. Y'all who are so fearful of being attacked by terrorists/ world domination by radical muslims (not sure how to frame it because the fear itself seems rather formless) ... you have a far higher risk of dying from heart attack, cancer, or auto accident than terrorism. I would hazard a guess and say that holds true even for Israel, which nobody would argue is "invisble" to terrorists. But nobody panics about heart attacks (at least not until they have one) because its a familiar risk, and one over which they feel some control. Our perceived risk- the stuff that sets our alarm bells ringing- is almost never in concord with actual risk. Unfamiliar, unpredictable, uncontrollable really pumps the adrenaline and sets the stage for PTSD.
SO: How worried are you about AIDS?
You might be too young to recall but AIDS was the last mass panic. At first nobody knew what it was. Even when it was figured to be a virus, there was no test for it and no treatment. Yeah, it was part of the "gay" community but... how many peole were REALLY infected? Your neighbor? YOU? Could you catch it from a toilet seat? Could it be spread by mosquitos? Deep kissing? Blood products? Once a test was developed there was talk of setting up camps. Tattooing the infected. Registering homosexuals. There was paranoia about the enemy within. Christian ministers told us it was God's scourge for bad behavior and we should fall to our knees and beg God's forgiveness (and send money).
And where are we now? You have a far higher chance dying of AIDS than being killed by terrorist. And yet... you're not in a panic about it. Why not? What changed? What turned AIDS phobia into a thing of the past?
If you live as long as I have, and you've been through several panics, you learn a couple of things:
Panic is never a good option.
Don't mistake your fears for reality.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Jong,
still wanna know -
"What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town? "
What does this have to do with Iraq ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Jong,
still wanna know -
"What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town? "
What does this have to do with Iraq ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Poopy-brained, toilet-drinking, fart producing, biped-butt-lickin' JERK!!!!!!!
I'll say, d**kwad.
Chrisisall (having too much fun being vulgar at Jong's expense)
Great post......
I was wondering how long it would take for my presence to rub off on ya!!!
Keep up the good work........
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Why, thanks, Kane!Chrisisall
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Quote:Nope. Bush never did that in any form, what so ever. Strike one.
Let's review. Bush, blamed Iraqis for miserable economy which U.S. experienced from its involvement in 9-11. Bush tries to exterminate Iraqis.
Quote:Not the job of the office of the President to keep us safe from acts of nature. Can't be done. Sorry. Oh, and there was no Illegal wiretapping, so excuse Bush for that too.
But not safe from Katrina, illegal wiretapping, all children left behind...
Strike Two!
Quote:
guess you could call it growth I call it lack of visible shrinkage.
Quote:
Tax Revenues: Tax receipts rose 11.8 percent in fiscal year 2006 (FY06) on top of FY05's 14.6 percent increase. As a share of GDP, FY07 receipts are projected to be above their 40-year average. (Last updated: July 13, 2007l
Strike Three, asshole. You lose.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Holy smokes, Rap. Is the challenge to Bush's godhood what got you so riled ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Jong,
Just keeping this up on the list 'cause I still wanna know -
"What good is new infrastructure when your city gets nuked with a dirty-bomb? What good will new bridges do when car & truck suicide bombers are blowing up things in your town? "
What does this have to do with Iraq ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nope. Bush never did that in any form, what so ever. Strike one.
Not the job of the office of the President to keep us safe from acts of nature. Can't be done. Sorry. Oh, and there was no Illegal wiretapping, so excuse Bush for that too.
Strike Two!
Tax Revenues: Tax receipts rose 11.8 percent in fiscal year 2006 (FY06) on top of FY05's 14.6 percent increase. As a share of GDP, FY07 receipts are projected to be above their 40-year average. (Last updated: July 13, 2007l
Strike Three, asshole. You lose.
1)Wrong. Dope.
2)You have no clear idea on this one. Doofus.
3)Once again, show me the MONEY, not happy happy stats from the GUBMINT!!!Douschebag.
AU, you are the worst kind of scum-sucking womprat, the kind of scurrilous knave that would happily work for Niska and chalk it up to 'what's necessary' for the econmic good of the Alliance. You mother was a canary (that's where you get that yellow streak), and your father was a gerbil (great fun for the butt). If I ever meet you in person sir, I shall certainly WRING YOUR NECK!
And wipe up that drool, not as many Americans might die in Iraq as you'd wish, Buddha willing...
Dumb bipeds like you are illegal on CIVILIZED planets.
Take that, you cretinous cantalope Chrisisall
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Yeah, I was going to comment at length on Rap's post. Then I remembered - this is the person who says WMD's were found in Iraq. Who says the earth isn't getting warmer. No siree, not one bit !
So what if patriotic shopping drooped from his memory ? Or that natural disaster response was specifically moved under Father- I mean Homeland Security as a FEDERAL responsibility ? That the Justice Department never signed off on warrantless wiretaps for fear they were illegal ?
And so on. These things are minor in the big detour from reality he's already raken.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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No facts, just petty ad hominems.
Classic fundie tactics.
Congrats, Chirssy.
( I'm rubber, you're glue.... ) 
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yeah, I was going to comment at length on Rap's post. Then I remembered - this is the person who says WMD's were found in Iraq. Who says the earth isn't getting warmer. No siree, not one bit !
So what if patriotic shopping drooped from his memory ? Or that natural disaster response was specifically moved under Father- I mean Homeland Security as a FEDERAL responsibility ? That the Justice Department never signed off on warrantless wiretaps for fear they were illegal ?
And so on. These things are minor in the big detour from reality he's already raken.
I find it funny that you just make up shit to make yourself sound legitimate, regardless of the facts. I never said there wassn 't any global warming, only that this lie that mankind is the driving force behind the inevitable fluxuations of the planet's temperature is a joke. Seems you also had something about me thinking the world is only 200,000 yrs old, but you backed away from that one. Would have been best had you backed away entirely.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:No- THIS is yer rubber n' glue right here.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I find it funny that you just make up shit to make yourself sound legitimate, regardless of the facts.
I've all but given up discussing things with you for this very reason, AU. Maybe you have a learning disability, maybe your father beat you- it really doesn't matter; you are so divorced from reality that it's lost it's humour. Most conservatives now agree that Bush is a loser. You're virtually an island unto yourself. And you profess to like shows (Firefly, Buffy) that are produced by those who hate Bush, the war, and big government. The anti-corruption in government messages abound in them, yet you still watch, as you masterbate to your various wall-sized posters of GW.
BTW, how's your prostate? You must have an excellent view of it, you head being up your a*s and all.
Go listen to Rush 24/7 Chrisisall
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Quote:Me too- I've given up. AU is a mental mess. He's actually a nice fellow on the Buffy threads, but here his Hyde comes out, all red-eyed and obsessed. He'll even miss my attempts at humour in my ad-h attacks above.
Originally posted by rue:
Yeah, I was going to comment at length on Rap's post. Then I remembered - this is the person who says WMD's were found in Iraq.
Oh well...
WMD owner Chrisisall
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Quote:
why should I live MY life in fear of a possibility that ranks somewhere just under accidently drowning in a five gallon bucket ?
Fact: you're more likely to accidently drown in a five gallon bucket, than be capped by an islamic terrorist.
Fact: no one can be 100% perfectly safe from anything and everything no matter how many rights are stomped on, or how much money is throw at the problem.
Face it, you couldn't find a clue if you were drowning in a lake of them, during clue mating season, drenched in clue phemerones.
Congratulations, asshat, you've supplanted even PN for the title of village idiot, dunnit make ya proud ?
*golfclap*
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Face it, you couldn't find a clue if you were drowning in a lake of them, during clue mating season, drenched in clue phemerones.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
THE LAUGH OF THE GORRAM WEEK!!!!!
Thanks man, I needed that!!!!LOL
*gasp*Chrisisall
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Auraptor, when you chapped my *ss for getting my fact wrong about Bush a bridge repair, I did some research and found out that Bush was not the major player in this. You HOWLED about being factual. You made a MAJOR friggin' point about how I should be FACTUAL. And yet, here you are, with nothing in your arguments except right-wing propaganda so false that you should be held accountable for you hypocracy.
I've been through several discussions with you where you might have to admit you were wrong and what did you do? You disappeared. Then several weeks or months later, when you think we've forgotten (I haven't) you come back with the same old crap! THIS time, you better hang in there to the end or be discredited as the delusional right-wing tool that I already suspect you are. And if you don't I'm gonna make a point in EVERY FRIGGIN REPLY TO YOU what a COWARD you are, since you avoid truth as if it were going to eat you alive.
-------------------------
KATRINA
You said: Not the job of the office of the President to keep us safe from acts of nature.
Rue said: Or that natural disaster response was specifically moved under Father- I mean Homeland Security as a FEDERAL responsibility ?
Signy- Are you saying that the Federal government had NO role in responding to Katrina? Because it is a FACT that natural disasters of a certain magnitude become Federal responsibilities, and that Bush has cleared the way for FEDERAL involvement even before landfall. So clarify your statement in light of these facts, or prove Rue wrong.
-------------------------------
ECONOMIC GROWTH- TAX REVENUES
Rap- Tax Revenues: Tax receipts rose 11.8 percent in fiscal year 2006 (FY06) on top of FY05's 14.6 percent increase.
Signy- What is your point about tax revenues? They are often used as a surrogate for economic growth, because (all other things being equal) when the economy expands, so do Federal receipts. (Why don't ppl don't just refer to the GDP? It's a lot more straightforward!) So tax revenues rose a whole bunch in 2005-06? Well, first of all that's not adjusted for inflation, so you can whack about 3% off those figures. More importantly, tax receipts rose year -over-year only after DROPPING a whole bunch in 2001-03! It's easy to look like you're heading upwards if you're crawling out of a hole! So, here are THE FACTS from the CBO: www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf
Since the tables are NOT inflation-adjusted, it's easy to miss the FACT that Federal revenues in 2006 just barely matched revenues in 2000. But with or without adjustment, revenues dropped severely under the Bush administration. Either prove that I'm wrong, or admit that your statement is incomplete and therefore misleading.
---------------
ECONOMIC GROWTH- GOVT SHARE OF GDP
Auraptor: As a share of GDP, FY07 receipts are projected to be above their 40-year average. (Last updated: July 13, 2007)
Signy: So in 2007 the Federal government took a bigger BITE out of the economy? Like... uh... tax RATES increased and are higher now than they've been over the past 40 years? As a right-wing tool, I'm not sure this is something I'd want to crow about, so I'm gonna give you a chance to clarify what this is really supposed to mean.
---------------------
IRAQ WMD
Rue- Yeah, I was going to comment at length on Rap's post. Then I remembered - this is the person who says WMD's were found in Iraq.
Rap- (no reply)
Signy- Well? Yeah, we all know- They found a few dozen to a several hundred old shells from about 18 years ago. So, are you saying we invaded Iraq because Saddam had leftovers? Prove that those "leftovers" were consequential - enough to cause a war- or give up on that "Saddam had WMD" crap cause it don't fly.
--------------------
GLOBAL WARMING
Rap- {grabs the one point that he feels he can defend} I find it funny that you just make up shit to make yourself sound legitimate, regardless of the facts. I never said there wassn 't any global warming, only that this lie that
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Under the heading "... and other outrages"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ content/article/2007/08/08/ AR2007080802308.html?hpid=sec-politics
Another Shot in Currency Fight: Chinese Threaten Divestment
yesterday
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070809/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc
Dow, S&P lose nearly 3 pct as subprime ills spread
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070809/bs_afp/stocksworld_070809170343; _ylt=Ai6_xgvsu2jrtluayKUkVFWs0NUE
World stocks shaken by US credit concerns
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/aig_subprime_dc; _ylt=Ai3ep6yaZqhPyjfCrRM4oLWs0NUE
Mortgage delinquencies, defaults spreading: AIG
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/ bnpparibas_subprime_funds_dc; _ylt=ApB9_6N7CyGk_EhTSp735Y2s0NUE
BNP freezes $2.2 bln of funds over subprime
today
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070810/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc; _ylt=AunTQh62iScY7SDqGbmOb5Ws0NUE
Wall St slides on credit turmoil
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070810/bs_afp/stocksworld_070810122409
Global stock markets extend plunge
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/world/asia/09casualties.html?ref=wor
ld
British Criticize US Air Attacks in Afghan Region
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070809/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_the_message; _ylt=AmIGkqiH8cfw5xSzRsHLnIWs0NUE
Iraq report hints: more time needed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070809/pl_afp/usiraniraqbush_07080920594
8; _ylt=Av72O6WBL_w0nC4VEJdG4yOs0NUE
Bush warns Iraq over ties with Iran
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070809/pl_nm/iraq_iran_bush_dc; _ylt=Ajze7S7cCIRQW6Xdqj9cMMis0NUE
Bush says Iran is destabilizing force in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070809/wl_mideast_afp/iraniraqdiplomacy_
070809185731; _ylt=AqqtHsRpc1vSYqZFdQtmYSWs0NUE
US troops must go, Iran tells Iraqi PM
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22195371-23109,00.html
Karzai at odds with US over Iran
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070809/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_iraq; _ylt=AobWmz.QonMr4H4c3TJ2Z8xw24cA
Iran promises security help for Iraq
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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"Most conservatives now agree that Bush is a loser."
Wow!! This just may be your most understated post in sometime. Not feeling well?
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Jongsstraw- I'm still curious as to what your "view" is of terrorism.
Also, you have not answered Rue's question about what dirty bombs have to do with Iraq,
Auraptor- you have not yet addressed any of my challenges to come up with the "facts" behind your various statements. I'm SURE you value factuality as much as I do, possibly even more so. At least you TALK about it as if you do, so put up or ...
---------------------------------
Am I being annoyingly persistent?
YOU BET!
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
AU is a mental mess. He's actually a nice fellow on the Buffy threads, but here his Hyde comes out, all red-eyed and obsessed. He'll even miss my attempts at humour in my ad-h attacks above.
It's not AU's fault, you gotta look at him just like Obi Wan Kenobi looked at Aniken after he found out he'd turned. He wanted to be mad at him and even chewed him out a bit when he was all on fire and leggless. But he wound up just walking away.
You probably know this Chris, but this is how AU's are created. Fox news has constant focus groups where they expose human sized lab specimens known as Republicans to visual stimulation, thier reactions are recorded, and the madder the Republican subjects get, the better. Then they put the most maddening visual stimulation possible on Fox News, Murdered Blond chicks, hordes of immigrants pouring over the border, Islamic Jihadists with knives in thier teeth, beware of the Hun, everything negative that happens to Hollywood folk or Democrats.
So when you look out the window and see flowers and daisies Chris, Fox News viewers see mexican imigrants jumping into thier backyard, and the cute chick next door being chased by terrorists with curvy swords, and then a guy on fire staggers by, then a viking chases him past. It's not easy being mad and conservative Chris....I for one forgive them even though they don't want me to.
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Malbad..
"and the cute chick next door being chased by terrorists with curvy swords,"
I usually see my curvy sword being chased by cute chicks next door.....you know G-spot...Well, it 's true.........
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I usually see my curvy sword being chased by cute chicks next door.....you know G-spot...Well, it 's true.........
Yoooo da man Kane!!! Not just a little to the left huh? but "curvy". No wonder the girl next door chases you!
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Curvy ? All I can say is - don't get all bent outa' shape doin' the deed.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:No- THIS is yer rubber n' glue right here.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I find it funny that you just make up shit to make yourself sound legitimate, regardless of the facts.
I've all but given up discussing things with you for this very reason, AU.
You quit discussing because I was kicking your ass all over the 'net and you couldn't handle the truth. All you bring to the table now are childish insults and irrelevent talking points about how much Bush is a loser. I DO find it refreshing that those who make Buffy/ Firefly are against Big Gov't. That should disqualify them for voting Democrat, at least. Whether they vote Republican is another issue.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I just thought I'd repost this from SignyM, because I suspect with you there's the 'truth' - which is what YOU believe; and then there are those inconvenient pesky facts.
"Auraptor- you have not yet addressed any of my challenges to come up with the "facts" behind your various statements. I'm SURE you value factuality as much as I do, possibly even more so. At least you TALK about it as if you do, so put up or ...
---------------------------------
Am I being annoyingly persistent?
YOU BET!"
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I think Auraptor is going to do his usual disappearing act.
I CHALLENGE AURAPTOR TO A DUEL!!!
Come out come out wherever you are! Or be called a COWARD forevermore!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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I never said that the Fed Gov't has 'no role' in sending emergency aid and assisting in recovery after natural disasters, BUT that it is imparitive that the state and local Governments acts as the primary responders. That's such a basic principle that you and too many seem incapable of comprehending. With Katrina, if you recall, the city of N.O. had an evacuation plan for just such an event.....and then failed to use it. The Gov of LA was asked BEFORE the storm hit if she wanted Federal assistance...she declined!! .
revenues dropped severely under the Bush administration. That's a lie. Sure, there was a drop in the first couple of years, from the Clinton/Gore recession , the DOT COM bust and 9/11, but so what? Tax revenues have been going up under Bush's administration every year after his tax cuts went into effect.
Quote:http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:wyPnKzC7uv4J:biz.yahoo.com/ap/070
AP
Revenue Collections Hit Record in April
Thursday May 10, 5:55 pm ET
By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
Revenue Collections Hit Record High in April, Improve Budget Deficit
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal revenue collections hit an all-time high in April, contributing to a further improvement in the budget deficit for the year.
Releasing its monthly budget report, the Treasury Department said Thursday that through the first seven months of this budget year, the deficit totals $80.8 billion, significantly below the $184.1 billion imbalance run up during the first seven months of the 2006 budget year.
So far this year, tax revenues total $1.505 trillion, an increase of 11.2 percent over the same period last year. That figure includes $383.6 billion collected in April, the largest monthly tax collection on record.
Tax collections swell in April every year as individuals file their tax returns by the deadline.
For the first seven months of this budget year, which began Oct. 1, revenue collections and government spending are at all-time highs.
However, the spending total of $1.585 billion was up at a slower pace of 3.2 percent from the previous year.
The difference in the growth of tax collections and spending is the reason for the narrowing deficit.
The Congressional Budget Office said that it now expects the deficit for all of 2007 to total between $150 billion and $200 billion. That would be a significant improvement from last year's deficit of $248.2 billion, which had been the lowest imbalance in four years.
The federal budget was in surplus for four years from 1998 through 2001 as the long economic expansion helped push revenues higher. But the 2001 recession, the cost of fighting a global war on terror and the loss of revenue from President Bush's tax cuts sent the budget back into the red starting in 2002.
The administration's budget sent to Congress in February projects that the deficit will be eliminated by 2012 even if the president achieves his goal of getting his tax cuts made permanent. They are now due to expire in 2010.
510/federal_budget.html+Fed+revenue+record+collection&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
As our economy grows in size, the % of our defecit decreases. That's what the % of GDP was about. While we might have a larger budget defecit in terms of dollars, the more important issue is the size of our economy. A large economy can have more of a defecit and it still be smaller , % wise, than if we had a smaller economy. It's not anything I really should have to explain.
WMD in Iraq. Sorry, but I've already explained this one too. There have been materials found in Iraq which were in violation to the UN's order. It's a moot point.
The man made global warming joke. That's what it is, a joke. The English channel use to be dry, when there was glaciers and stuff all over Europe, back some 8,000 yrs ago. The planet warms and cools, all on its own, over 1000's of years.
Evolution - Don't know how to explain that one, though I'm not ruling out heat exhaustion. But I specifically saw some one post that I probably only tho
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Rap-My world just accelerated to hyperdrive again, but I'll try to keep up my end of the conversation.
-----------------------------
Quote:What you said was It is "not the job of the office of the President to keep us safe from acts of nature." You DIDN'T say "it is not the job of the office of the President to be the PRIMARY responder". Just simply ""not the job". *buzzer sounds* Clearly, non-factual. Next time, try not making such broad-brush statements.
I never said that the Fed Gov't has 'no role' in sending emergency aid and assisting in recovery after natural disasters.
----------------------------------
Quote:Oh? Which part? The part that says that revenues dropped, the part that says severely, or or the part that says it happened under Bush? And BTW, if the economy goes into the shitter- as it may, with foreclosures rising and house prices falling- who're you gonna blame? Clinton?
revenues dropped severely under the Bush administration.-signy
That's a lie. -Auraptor
---------------------
Quote:And you don't. I understand THIS article, but that's not what you originally said. Your original quote said
As our economy grows in size, the % of our defecit decreases... It's not anything I really should have to explain.
Quote:I don't know how to make this more plain. What THIS quote said was: The economy grew but government receipts grew FASTER. In other words, the government is taking a larger share, higher percentage, bigger bite, mordita mas grande ... how can I possibly clarify this further?... of the economy than the 40-year average. So, I leave you to explain how the government can grab a bigger percentage of the economy without raising the effective tax rate, since this is something you see as positive And sure, Bush can make the deficit go down if he does a stealth tax increase, but ANYBODY can do that!
As a share of GDP FY07 receipts are projected to be above their 40-year average. (Last updated: July 13, 2007)
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Quote:Not really. You've tossed confetti at it, but none your discussion gelled into a comprehensible reason to answer the question Why did we invade Iraq? I wouldn't mind another go at this question, but more step-by-step.
WMD in Iraq. Sorry, but I've already explained this one too.
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I'm gonna have to limit my discussion to one topic at a time. Why don't you pick which one to select this time? I'll pick the next time. Thanks.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:See, you think you're so clever.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I DO find it refreshing that those who make Buffy/ Firefly are against Big Gov't. That should disqualify them for voting Democrat, at least. Whether they vote Republican is another issue.
You are FOR big government, jerk. Bush's government is big and growing all the time. So you love Bush; you love big government. You understand, but you don't comprehend
And the economy is doing well- from a tax and business POV. I measure an economy by buying power. You measure it by tax revenues. I deal in realism; you deal in comfortable spin.
So lost, poor 'Raptor.
So lost.
And such a poopy-brain
.I fart in your general direction Chrisisall
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Quote:But there is good in AU; the Neo-Cons have not driven it from him fully.
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
It's not AU's fault, you gotta look at him just like Obi Wan Kenobi looked at Aniken after he found out he'd turned.
...okay, so they have....
Chrisisall KenobiNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The Fed Gov't can't and should never be expected to keep us safe from everything, all the time, everywhere. You're really picking at nits here, Sig.
Revenues went down, and then they went up. Hard to deny that , during the Clinton/Gore recession that W inherited, that revenues went anywhere but down. Then the tax cuts kicked in, the economy recovered, and the Fed took in a record amount of tax revenue. What about that is so hard for you to comprehend ?
We invaded Iraq because , after 10 yrs of sanctions, it did not live up to the obligations the U.N. had determined necessary. Never mind the gigantic scandal the U.N. and Iraq were involved with during this time, making the entire effort a ruse, but that's another story. Iraq was invaded because it left us no choice.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:See, you think you're so clever.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I DO find it refreshing that those who make Buffy/ Firefly are against Big Gov't. That should disqualify them for voting Democrat, at least. Whether they vote Republican is another issue.
You are FOR big government, jerk. Bush's government is big and growing all the time. So you love Bush; you love big government. You understand, but you don't comprehend
And the economy is doing well- from a tax and business POV. I measure an economy by buying power. You measure it by tax revenues. I deal in realism; you deal in comfortable spin.
So lost, poor 'Raptor.
So lost.
And such a poopy-brain
I deal in how real the economy is, how low unemployment is ( folks out of work don't pay income taxes, you know ) and yes....by how much revenue a Gov't brings in after tax cuts.
If we agree that Bush's expansion of the Gov't is bad, then Kerry or Gore's would have been much , MUCH worse. Instead of Homeland Security and Defense, they'd be spending the $$ on Free Cadillacs for unwed minority mothers, or luxury Section 8 Housing for illegals.
No thanks.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Well this and your other answer in the "We need another 9-11" thread both share the same fallacy. So, I'll let this one sit for the night as well,; maybe you'll see the commonality and figure out where you went wrong--- twice.
If we agree that Bush's expansion of the Gov't is bad, then Kerry or Gore's would have been much , MUCH worse. Instead of Homeland Security and Defense, they'd be spending the $$ on Free Cadillacs for unwed minority mothers, or luxury Section 8 Housing for illegals.
In the meantime, lets' tackle the economy as the first topic of discussion, since that's where the thread seems to be going.
Quote:Simple. The "record" revenue under GWB is LESS than the actual record amounts of revenue under Clinton if you look at constant (ie inflation adjusted) dollars. In fact, GWB specifically directed his office to report revenues in inflated dollars because it looks better that way!
Then the tax cuts kicked in, the economy recovered, and the Fed took in a record amount of tax revenue. What about that is so hard for you to comprehend ?
Now, how do you explain the fact that the RATE of government receipts - as a share of the GDP- is higher now than the historic average?? You keep sliding past that question, but I'm going to keep asking it until I get an answer since you brought it up so triumphantly! .
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Actually, the economy has been declining steadly for decades now- with a few spikes up (most noteably in the eighties), but buying power is down- way down, and getting worse. Economics is a numbers game, but the global economy is drowning our superiority. 2 US dollars = 1 UK pound now... Canadian $ is worth more too. What's the big deal about low unemployment when actual adjusted earnings are DOWN from years past with higher unemployment?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I deal in how real the economy is, how low unemployment is ( folks out of work don't pay income taxes, you know ) and yes....by how much revenue a Gov't brings in after tax cuts.
Dollar days Chrisisall
Oops! I forgot- you lewd crude pile of rude food!!!
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Quote:Would that constitute a lie? An exaggeration? An optimistic omission?
Originally posted by SignyM:
GWB specifically directed his office to report revenues in inflated dollars because it looks better that way!
Calculated spin, says I. Like calling torture 'innovative information gathering'....
Two months 'til Bush invades Iran Chrisisall
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Over 4 1/2 yrs of economic growth, and you call it in decline.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:The Earth's orbit around the Sun is not a perfect circle either. Some truths are hard to SEE, I guess.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Over 4 1/2 yrs of economic growth, and you call it in decline.
ChrisisallNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Well this and your other answer in the "We need another 9-11" thread both share the same fallacy. So, I'll let this one sit for the night as well,; maybe you'll see the commonality and figure out where you went wrong--- twice.
If we agree that Bush's expansion of the Gov't is bad, then Kerry or Gore's would have been much , MUCH worse. Instead of Homeland Security and Defense, they'd be spending the $$ on Free Cadillacs for unwed minority mothers, or luxury Section 8 Housing for illegals.
In the meantime, lets' tackle the economy as the first topic of discussion, since that's where the thread seems to be going.Quote:Simple. The "record" revenue under GWB is LESS than the actual record amounts of revenue under Clinton if you look at constant (ie inflation adjusted) dollars. In fact, GWB specifically directed his office to report revenues in inflated dollars because it looks better that way!
Then the tax cuts kicked in, the economy recovered, and the Fed took in a record amount of tax revenue. What about that is so hard for you to comprehend ?
Now, how do you explain the fact that the RATE of government receipts - as a share of the GDP- is higher now than the historic average?? You keep sliding past that question, but I'm going to keep asking it until I get an answer since you brought it up so triumphantly! .
Under Bush, the U.S. took in more tax revenue in history. That is a fact. Yes, there was a down turn in the economy as Clinton left office and Bush became President, but that turned around after the first couple of years. Tax revenue has continued to incrase from the data 2 yrs ago, and at a faster rate than most 'experts' expected.
I rest my case.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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