Shepherd Book

POSTED BY: trekkerj
UPDATED: Saturday, December 13, 2003 03:12
VIEWED: 15321
PAGE 1 of 1

TREKKERJ

Friday, July 4, 2003 2:42 AM

I just saw the 3 unaired episodes. I was hoping they'd really start to explain the mystery behind who the Shepherd really is or who he is working for. Too bad the series ended before this happened. Anyone ever read anything from Joss or anyone else as to where they might have been taking this?

I am hoping once the first season comes out on DVD it will be so popular and gain more new fans that the demand for new shows will get it back on tv. What a great show. I can't believe Sci-Fi didn't pick it up. I guess they couldn't afford it. Could have been their #1 hit show.

XION47

Friday, July 4, 2003 2:57 AM

In one of the last features on the official FOX site, Minear said he was working on a story about Book's past and when asked if he had connections to the Alliance, he responded (paraphrased): "It won't be what you think."

TREKKERJ

Friday, July 4, 2003 2:59 AM

Yeah, I just watched that actually. Just makes me wonder even more what they were planning. Doh.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Monday, July 7, 2003 3:23 AM

There is that very interesting scene where Inara tends Book's injury ... that scene ends with what looks like Inara giving Book a benediction. Very interesting and a lot of potential for character development.

I also like the way Book handles a gun.

SERGEANTX

Monday, July 7, 2003 4:47 AM

Yes, I really loved the religious icon bending in that scene. So much potential in Books story.
GORRAM FOX!

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

CALHOUN

Tuesday, July 8, 2003 1:46 PM

I like the relationship between Book and Jayne, they seem to have a lot in common.

They both Work out together and can handle themselves in a fight(I like how Book disarmed Dobson in the pilot episode).

They both know a lot about crime.(Jayne observed Book knew much about crime in "Our Mrs Reynolds")

I think this was a type of warrior to warrior respect type of friendship developing and I was looking forward to seeing it unfold.

Anyone else thinking along these lines?

Jayne - Ya'll might want to reconsider that last part, see I married me a powerful ugly creature.

Mal - How can you say that! How can you shame me in front of new people!

Jayne - If I could make you prettier I would!

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Tuesday, July 8, 2003 6:43 PM

GORRAM FOX INDEED! Some consolation knowing that them what cancelled Firefly are going to THAT SPECIAL HELL...

CALHOUN

Wednesday, July 9, 2003 10:30 AM

Guys! cant I even have 1 response about my posting just above (Book and Jayne pals). Does anyone agree with what I am saying or do you all think i'm full of gossur?

JAVIDRHO

Wednesday, July 9, 2003 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Guys! cant I even have 1 response about my posting just above (Book and Jayne pals). Does anyone agree with what I am saying or do you all think i'm full of gossur?

Calhoun,
Sometimes people don't respond because they agree with you. It's the one who have a strongly different opinion who always jump in with a quick response.

I know that I noticed the building relationship between Book and Jayne early on too. It was a subtle thing, but surfaced more obviously in The Message.

HATEHATEHATEFOX

Wednesday, July 9, 2003 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Guys! cant I even have 1 response about my posting just above (Book and Jayne pals). Does anyone agree with what I am saying or do you all think i'm full of gossur?

I liked where I saw it heading. In some of the eps you could see respect from Jayne growing as Book demonstrated the kind of skills that Jayne admires - kneecapping, disarming people etc. I seem to remember suggestions that Jayne might be a tad religious too although I can't recall if he ever bows his head for grace at table.

JAVIDRHO

Wednesday, July 9, 2003 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:

I like the relationship between Book and Jayne, they seem to have a lot in common.
...
I think this was a type of warrior to warrior respect type of friendship developing and I was looking forward to seeing it unfold.

Anyone else thinking along these lines?

The reasons for their growing "bond" might be even more simple. They are both "men without women" and very little to do when Serenity is space bound.

Wash has his wife, Mal has his ship (and Inara), Simon has both his sister to care for and Kaylee to chat with. Book is a man of the cloth, so women are off limits for him, and Jayne is just too crude for any woman to want him.

Also, having spent months at sea myself, I know that unlikely friendships often develop between those trapped inside. People, who in the outside world, might never find a reason to bond, become friends when stuck together. I see this between Book and Jayne, like in OiS, when they were talking about sex in the galley, or in Message, when they were in the weight room talking about death. It all seemed very "real" to me...

CALHOUN

Wednesday, July 9, 2003 2:03 PM

Im glad to have some like minded souls in the verse.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Friday, July 11, 2003 1:19 AM

I thought you were spot on!

Jayne and Book's relationship has the potential for some shiny, brilliant, awesome plot development.

It makes me think a bit of Joss Whedon's "Hush" for BtVS. It would be really powerful for the relationship to develop without too many words being spoken between them, but rather there would be actions and shared experiences that sealed their friendship.

Tell us more about how you see their relationship developing .... please.

CALHOUN

Friday, July 11, 2003 10:56 AM

I think it likely that if the show had continued we would have discovered that Book was indeed not really a shepherd(as Jubal Early said).

Book has some kind of connection to the Alliance as was evidenced in "Safe" when he was rushed on board the Alliance cruiser for treatment. My guess is that Book was or is affiliated with a government "Black Op" agency, something akin to CIA. This would explain his broad knowledge of weaponry, combat and crime, possibly even why he is now behaving as a shepherd(perhaps he saw to much death in his previous line of work).

This is my humble opinion.. If Joss ever reads this post please let me know if i'm on the right track. :)

JAVIDRHO

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I think it likely that if the show had continued we would have discovered that Book was indeed not really a shepherd(as Jubal Early said).

Book has some kind of connection to the Alliance as was evidenced in "Safe" when he was rushed on board the Alliance cruiser for treatment. My guess is that Book was or is affiliated with a government "Black Op" agency, something akin to CIA. This would explain his broad knowledge of weaponry, combat and crime, possibly even why he is now behaving as a shepherd(perhaps he saw to much death in his previous line of work).

I think that you're right, Book was some sort of high ranking lawman (or Black Ops guy, or maybe even a hitman) but I also think he really is a shepherd now, not just playing one. He is old enough to have given up a career in the law and then joined the ministry for the past few years.

Maybe because he did so much wrong for the Alliance, he finally "found his soul" and couldn't do it any longer. So he quit and joined the ministry to look for salvation, of one kind or another. But he couldn't find it in the abbey, so he decided to go back into the world, to try and find it there.

How does that sound?

CALHOUN

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:31 AM

Sounds about right pal. I wish there was some way we could know for sure what was planned..

JAVIDRHO

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Sounds about right pal. I wish there was some way we could know for sure what was planned..

Actually, I don't mind not knowing. Being a writer, I like trying to figure out things myself. Sometimes, when you learn the "truth" you find that your ideas were better then the creator's. I appreciate the fact that the Matrix creator's (Wachowski brothers) refuse to talk about their work. They want to leave it up to the audience to figure things out for themselves.

It can be frustrating, but think about it - movies and TV shows seldom give you anything to think about after the show has aired. I think it is a good writer who will leave some things up to the viewer's imagination. Also, if we had all the answers, we would not be talking about it right now, would we?

Imagination and curiosity are terrible things to waste. I, for one, would like to thank Joss and Company for boosting ours.

p.s. We will learn the truth about Book (and River, too) some day. One way or another, the truth will get out. Joss wants to continue this story, so if its possible, then he will do it. If not, and if FF finally is put to rest, then I'm sure Joss will be more than happy to answer our questions (let's hope that day never comes)...

CALHOUN

Friday, July 11, 2003 1:55 PM

I agree with what you are saying, to a certain extent. Most TV shows give you little to think about afterwards but Firefly is different. Every episode was superb and i'd like to believe that whatever Joss had planned would be better than any mere mortal mind could concieve.

JAVIDRHO

Friday, July 11, 2003 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I agree with what you are saying, to a certain extent. Most TV shows give you little to think about afterwards but Firefly is different. Every episode was superb and i'd like to believe that whatever Joss had planned would be better than any mere mortal mind could concieve.

Let's hope so

JAVIDRHO

Friday, July 11, 2003 2:01 PM

oops - double post - sorry (dang mouse)

But, while I'm here, I saw in the thread "Utah House of Links" ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=2265) that Maniacnumerone has a site with lots of good observations about Book. Here it is: http://www.magicbishop.com
Why isn't he in this discussion?

DRAKON

Friday, July 11, 2003 2:12 PM

"My guess is that Book was or is affiliated with a government "Black Op" agency, "

That was my first guess too. The reason I discounted it was that Joss Whedon has a way of surpising folks, of misdirection. So if that is what I thought Shepard was, that was probably the last thing he was.

"My kind of stupid"

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Friday, July 11, 2003 3:36 PM

I think what sent Book to the Abbey is what sent Inara to the outer worlds. They are connected somehow, and I have a feeling that while Book may have his ident-card and Inara has her status as a Companion, they were involved with something that just got too hot.

I like to think they were part of the underground movement that helped Simon free River from the blue-gloves.

After the Firefly movie is a huge success and series starts again, then we'll know more - but in the Jossverse I doubt we'll ever know all, and what we do know will turn out to signify something entirely different in the long run.

METAK

Friday, July 11, 2003 6:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
"My guess is that Book was or is affiliated with a government "Black Op" agency, "

That was my first guess too. The reason I discounted it was that Joss Whedon has a way of surpising folks, of misdirection. So if that is what I thought Shepard was, that was probably the last thing he was.

"My kind of stupid"

Okay, here's a wild idea about Book. I think I read somewhere that the two main worlds are Singon (where Inara was born) and Londinium. In the pilot Mal mentions "the King of all Londinium" Perhaps there's a royal family/nobility and perhaps Book is a scion of that. It would account for the freedom to go off and do what he wants and the magic ID that gets him treatment. Is that too crazy?

KAYTHRYN

Friday, July 11, 2003 7:04 PM

Quote:
Posted by Metak:
Okay, here's a wild idea about Book. I think I read somewhere that the two main worlds are Singon (where Inara was born) and Londinium. In the pilot Mal mentions "the King of all Londinium" Perhaps there's a royal family/nobility and perhaps Book is a scion of that. It would account for the freedom to go off and do what he wants and the magic ID that gets him treatment. Is that too crazy?

I love it! I think it’s Sihnon by the way, but I love your idea. That would be so great! I know everything points towards Books being some ex cop or some such but I don’t see FF going the way we would all expect. Your idea makes me think of that movie "Coming to America" I think, with Eddie Murphy. He was royalty but he could still kick butt like Book

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

SAPIENT

Friday, July 11, 2003 9:23 PM

I will have to check on this but I think Book had been at the abbey about as long as the war had been over.

Here is my thought on Book: What if he was a high ranking official (general or such) in the Alliance Army. Maybe he was even at the Battle of Serenity (this would add to why he was attracted to the ship).

Once the war was done, since he was older, he retires honorably. Since the independence war was a civil war, brother against brother so to speak, the destruction, loss of life, especially at the Battle of Serenity Valley, got him wondering about the meaning of life. Where the war drove Mal away from God, it drove Book closer. Seeking answers book joins the Abbey.

If book was a highly decorated retired commander of the Alliance Army would answer a lot of questions about Book. This would explain his knowledge of weapons, hand to hand combat, (spoiler warning)

Select to view spoiler:

and alliance police movements

. This would explain his quick admittance to the alliance ship for medical assistance when he was shot. A retired commander would probably have a high security clearance or at least his credentials would be highly respected. This would also explain his secrecy of his past an his knowledge of things that Sheppard would not necessarily know.

Maybe someone can help me. I cannot remember if Book spoke of his stance on the war.

OR

Maybe he was a very good thief/counterfeiter/mafia type that had a sudden conscience attack and joined the Abbey to try and for get his past. The id card he had could have been a forgery that he used in a pinch because of the seriousness of his injuries. This also would explain his knowledge of weapons, hand to hand combat, (same spoiler warning)

Select to view spoiler:

and alliance police movements

. And if he wanted to forget his past is reason enough to keep it secret as to not have to answer too many questions. Also this would explain how Early knows book.

Just my thoughts.

CALHOUN

Friday, July 11, 2003 10:50 PM

I think Metak has a sound train of thought going, I also had thought along these lines but i'm just not totally convinced that book is connected to royalty.. its not an observation i'm able to quantify, just a gut feeling. BRING ON THE MOVIE!!

P.S. Sapient, whats with the spoilers?

ARCHER

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:22 PM

"I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not. What do you think of that?"

Roughly quoting from OiS, might not be entirely the proper quote.

Very interesting statement from a man who later has his breakdown in Serenity, at the end of the ep. Was it a general attitude and way of life for him, or a moment of extreme heat?

After watching The Message, I was sure that the line they were taking us down involved him being an ex-secret-police type or somesuch, but then as usual this show takes us down twists and turns.

Interesting, very interesting.

Also, ditto on the Book/Jayne relationship being one of the more intriguing elements of the show. Jayne now has two close associates (in Book and Kaylee) who actually like him. Probably the first time in his life outside of his family. Very rich possibilities from this, indeed. The conversation they had in The Message was probably my favorite part of what I felt was a rather flawed episode.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sapient:
I will have to check on this but I think Book had been at the abbey about as long as the war had been over.

As I recall the war ended 6 years before, and Book had been in the Abbey for three years. But I needs must force myself to watch every episode of Firefly again to be sure. Oh how I suffer.

CALHOUN

Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:12 AM

Books breakdown in Serenity was in the pilot episode long before he made that intriging(spelling..) statement.

I thought "The Message" was a good episode, I enjoyed it anyhows. The worst was "Heart of Gold" 2 scenes just didnt work for me : 1= Book hosing the armed to the teeth badguys with a garden hose(that was pathetic).

2= Mal chasing the hovercraft on a horse just looked really lame to me.

Other than that I liked the episode.

The worst episode of Firefly is still way better than the best episode of anything else..

ARCHER

Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Books breakdown in Serenity was in the pilot episode long before he made that intriging(spelling..) statement.

I thought "The Message" was a good episode, I enjoyed it anyhows. The worst was "Heart of Gold" 2 scenes just didnt work for me : 1= Book hosing the armed to the teeth badguys with a garden hose(that was pathetic).

2= Mal chasing the hovercraft on a horse just looked really lame to me.

Other than that I liked the episode.

The worst episode of Firefly is still way better than the best episode of anything else..

First off, on the sequence of events. I was referring to the fact that the scene River saw in OiS most likely occurred well before the start of the series in Serenity. Apologies for my lack of clarity.

Haven't seen HoG yet, actually, so I can't speak to that episode's particulars. But what disappointed me about The Message was that it had a hell of a lot of potential and flat dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I think it could have been one HELL of a two-parter, one that goes into Tracy's background and personality in more depth. As it was, I felt fairly unsatisfied when I was done. Yeah, it was Firefly, yeah, FF is king of science fiction now, but I felt it ended up being one of the weaker episodes. I liked Trash a lot better and felt that it showed more of the characteristics we all came to love in FF, the humor and drama intermixed with sharp plot twists.

Furthermore

Select to view spoiler:

Why HELL didn't somebody just tell Tracy "Look dumbass, we're not selling you out." during the confrontation on the bridge? I mean, sitting back and watching it, we all knew that Book was not proposing to Mal that he just give Tracy up to the cop, and the whole sequence just rang damn false to me. There could have been any number of ways to manufacture a standoff and hostage situation with Tracy, given his displayed ruthlessness and self-centered nature, and I think they chose the poorest one.

Sorry, it just didn't work for me as well as my other faves, Ariel and OoG.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

CALHOUN

Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:54 AM

No need to appologise pal, everyone is entitled to an opinion regardless of the fact mine is the only opinion to count :) joking.

My favourites are Serenity, Ariel, Our Mrs Reynolds, Out of Gas and Objects in Space.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Saturday, July 12, 2003 4:48 AM

We all have our faves, so no worries.

I am one who thinks "The Message" is brill and shiny and awesome. For me it doesn't miss a beat, and its conclusion on St Alban's was devastating and powerful.

I suppose I'm all for episodes that show stupid mistakes happening, showing how a life could be so messed up by the war that the poor soul didn't know what on Earth-that-was to do.

I suppose it is my own life's experience that makes me want to show folks that casualties from war keep happening long after the war's declared dead.

ARCHER

Saturday, July 12, 2003 6:58 AM

I wasn't apologizing for my opinion, but I try to keep two things in mind. Excessive criticism can annoy the hell out of people and ruin their enjoyment of things, and I hate those discussions that get personal just because one person likes something and another doesn't.

But we're all obviously adults here, so no worries on that score.

Shepherd- Yeah, I go into that theme of postwar casualties in my Ghosts of Serenity fanfic. It's pretty compelling for me as well. That's why the episode irked me, because I feel that it didn't develop it enough. There was so much there that could have been worked with. Stretch it to a two-parter, and I probably would have been in ecstatics.

Anyway, back to that whacky Shepherd Book, I think he really was a high-dollar male Companion, and the flashback was from when he was doing bondage work.

Yeah, that'll be totally unexpected. Except I ruined the surprise.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

DRAKON

Saturday, July 12, 2003 8:28 AM

There is no indication that Early knew Book. All Early said was that Book was no shepard. This could have been because he knew who Book was, but also because Book did not look nor act like your standard Shepard. There is insufficient data to determine which of these alternatives are correct.

As for him being an Alliance officer, general, etc. again, I gotta say that this is Joss we are talking about. The obvious answer is hardly ever right.

Of course, that may be just what he wants me to think, so I would overlook that answer.

"my kind of stupid"

CALHOUN

Saturday, July 12, 2003 9:58 AM

Archer! Book a male companion LOL.. never even considered that one.. could be, could be.

I am glad I found this web site cause being an Aussie and Firefly never having been shown here its hard to find folk to talk to about it.

I tell ya one thing I have done is to create a vcd which is an edited collage of all of my favourite scenes in Firefly. I only managed to fit 4 episodes on 1x80 min vcd and it was sooo hard to chop bits out cause its all good, the end result is cool though, I pop it into my DVD player and VOILA! 80 mins of the best bits Wahhooo!

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Saturday, July 12, 2003 3:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
... Stretch it to a two-parter, and I probably would have been in ecstatics.

Anyway, back to that whacky Shepherd Book, I think he really was a high-dollar male Companion, and the flashback was from when he was doing bondage work.

I would have loved it as a two parter. I have wondered if the DVD will include deleted scenes, bits and pieces. I certainly hope so.

BOOK AS A FORMER COMPANION!?!?! === actually I think that's brilliant. The mind boggles

ARCHER

Saturday, July 12, 2003 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
There is no indication that Early knew Book. All Early said was that Book was no shepard. This could have been because he knew who Book was, but also because Book did not look nor act like your standard Shepard. There is insufficient data to determine which of these alternatives are correct.

Yeah, given how unsettled the various theories of Jubal are as well. The common sentiment seems to be that he's a River-type modified human, but who knows? He knew everyone's names, so if nothing else, perhaps he had access to information from various channels and knew more about Book from that.

Calhoun- Hey, where at in Australia? I have a buddy who lives in Sidney. We've got a couple of Aussie fans who show up in the IRC occasionally. You guys have corrupted my language, dammit. Got me wandering around saying "Too right" and "Spot on" and so on.

Oh yeah, and what sorta scenes did you dump in your favorites compilation?

Shepherd- Yeah, cut-scenes and all might make it work for me better as well.

As for the Companion thing... I was typing that up and sitting there thinking... what has nobody else suggested that I know of?

A thunderbolt struck from the heavens, yea, the very heavens and this voice spaketh thusly "Have you ever considered Man-Whore?"

So I says "Well geez, yeah, I'm a bit short on cash right now, but still there are better ways to make money..."

And it says "No, BOOK you dolt!"

So I says "Well, I'm sure he's sexy and all, but he's really not my type..."

And it says "I give up. I just fricking give up."

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

WULFHAWK

Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:01 PM

Book and Jayne are sides of a coin.

The thought that our telepathic River caught from Book was the same kind of thought she caught from Jayne: something troubling to him, that would come to mind often, something that made him feel guilty. Just as Jayne's guilty thought was triggered by River's presence, Book's guilty thought might have been triggered somehow by circumstance. Was it because he was laughing and hanging out with a fellow thug? Is his guilt from being a mobster, a hit-man with organized crime connections?

firearms expert
intimate knowledge of criminal activities
influence in high places
desire to keep a low profile

So, let's fill in the fictional blanks.
After the war, the Alliance was able to look closer to enforcing the law, and organized crime had to curtail operations in the interest of survival. It didn't go away, however; too many Alliance officers and officials were involved already. Some crimebosses went 'independent', heading to the frontier where their old-fashioned methods were still effective.

With the TITANing up of organized crime in the core worlds, many of the old guard were forced into retirement. Those who didn't want to retire, or knew too much about their bosses to be allowed to retire anywhere but the grave, filtered out to the frontier. Here they were employed by the brutal independent crime bosses.

Some, however, came to the frontier to hide. Henry Booker was one of those. Called 'the Book' by organized crime, his career of assassination-for-hire came to an end one sunny afternoon when a hit team tried to remove him from 'play'. His survival was more luck than skill, forcing him into a realization: he had to disappear or die.

Entering the Brotherhood was, at first, simply a step to that end. By the end of his first year in the Abbey, Book was a changed man. Like most killers, he had justified his murders by telling himself that all men were guilty of something;

"I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not. What do you think of that?"

in the Abbey he'd come to realize that what he had ended was each man's potential for innocence. Book threw himself into his newfound calling, spending years reinventing himself and forgetting what he had left behind. . . but he was not forgotten.

One day, an enterprising young bountyhunter had come to the Abbey, planning to bag 'the Book' and move himself up in his syndicate. After the encounter ended badly, Book and his Abbot agreed that some time in the world, travelling and spreading the word, might be the best possible course. Shepard Book soon found himself dragging his worldly possessions through a dusty frontier spaceport, looking for a smuggler's ship to be his haven, and his opportunity for redemption. . .

Take my love
Take my land

ARCHER

Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
With the TITANing up of organized crime in the core worlds,

Some day, my friend, some day...

Where'd I put thet there durn axe handle?

(For the rest... Wulf just slapped me with an inside joke. Feel free to disregard.)

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

ARCHER

Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:10 PM

Other than that, good storyline Wulf.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

TALONPEST

Sunday, July 13, 2003 12:42 AM

I've come to the conclusion that Book was something along the lines of a special police opperative for the Alliance. He served as judge, jurry and executioner.

I've decided on this theory because while he knows an awful lot about crime, weapons, and military-esque vehicals, Book has been established to be connected to the Alliance and highly respected by them (in Safe). He couldn't have been a criminal himself. The quote "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. Now where does that put you?" reinforces this theory because it puts him in a position where he's dealing with people who are professing their innocence. The only reason they'd do that is if they're being accused of breaking a law, which means Book was enforcing the law, however unjustly and brutally.

This also explains how Jubal Early knew who he was (he HAD to have known who Book was- there was no time for him to judge that Book wasn't a shepard by his behavior before Early knocked him out,) because they were in similar lines of work.

This is the only line of work I can think of that accomodates everything we know about Book.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Sunday, July 13, 2003 2:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
A thunderbolt struck from the heavens, yea, the very heavens and this voice spaketh thusly "Have you ever considered Man-Whore?"

So I says "Well geez, yeah, I'm a bit short on cash right now, but still there are better ways to make money..."

And it says "No, BOOK you dolt!"

So I says "Well, I'm sure he's sexy and all, but he's really not my type..."

And it says "I give up. I just fricking give up."

Although your post caused me to spew my lager across the room, should we ever meet I'll buy you a pint or three for making me laugh so hard.

ARCHER

Sunday, July 13, 2003 5:49 AM

Quote:
Although your post caused me to spew my lager across the room, should we ever meet I'll buy you a pint or three for making me laugh so hard.

You're on, pal. I'll bring a bottle of Cuervo to cover my end of the deal.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

WULFHAWK

Sunday, July 13, 2003 4:48 PM

Jubal Early knew Book because there was a bounty on Book, not because Jubal knows every piddly retired cop in the verse.

Retired cops don't get VIP treatment, and in fact, retired cops running with smugglers can end up getting even worse treatment than usual. Book got VIP treatment without fanfare because of someone else's influence, someone who didn't want that influence advertised, someone who didn't want ties with Book well known, someone who owed Book something that could be paid with illicit influence. Doesn't sound like a retired cop to me. Sounds more like a retired mobster.

Take my love
Take my land

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:24 PM

I had never considered that there might be a bounty on Book. But your logic makes sense Wulf.

JK

Sunday, October 19, 2003 1:05 PM

If there were a bounty on Book, wouldn't Jubal have dragged him along with him to claim his bounty too?

I still like my general idea (since he could be pinning a huge mistake he made on an underling with his "half a hump"), but I know for a fact that I'm wrong. Come on, it's Joss!

JK

MANIACNUMBERONE

Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:11 PM

Perhaps that's why Jubal knocked him out - he might have been planning to come back and get him too, once he found River and Simon.

JK

Sunday, October 19, 2003 5:54 PM

Perhaps. But he might just have knocked him out to finish a noisy fight before it had begun. I'm not an expert but, if I were Jubal, I'd have trussed Book up and had him by the hatch so I could grab him on the way out with a minimum of hassle. Picking him up after I'd got Simon and River would have been unnecessarily complicated.

JK

VETERAN

Sunday, October 19, 2003 7:36 PM

The retired mobster idea for Book might fit. But, it doesn't make sense that Book has a bounty on him. Unless you mean an illicit one. Otherwise the Alliance would have just arrested him or let him die.

Maybe Book is related to someone high up in the Alliance. Any ideas on what the Chief Executive of the Alliance is called?

SOUTHERNMERC

Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:36 PM

Could Book have been a retired military officer? One who set policy for the Alliance, and therefore feels guilt about the terrible things done based upon said policy (even if not directly involved)? Perhaps a hardliner who realized the effect of his attitude and so wished to correct it, even if in a small fashion. It would account for the treatment given to him by the Alliance when he was injured, and Jubal may have recognized him because he himself was in the Alliance military and recognized him from somewhere (photo or CO or some such). Anyone got anything to help me out here or am I just blowin' smoke?

Jayne: "How big a room?"

LUNATIKAT

Monday, October 20, 2003 12:42 AM

I like the idea of Book being a superspy, double triple or quadruple agent. In addition, if the Alliance symbolizes the centrist or statist side of the equation and the rebels the non-centrist, then, logically, one of the problems the rebels must have had to continuously deal with is political organizations that would make the Alliance seem quite moderate trying to claim common cause with the Rebel side. Have to be VERY careful about alienating these folks.

So, I'm thinking to myself, it could go something like this: Here I am, abbot of a little monastery and my universe is about to enter civil war. The signs are everywhere if my monastery is involved in corporal works of mercy (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the stricken, bury the dead). If I'm smart and maybe a little worldly (and oddly often the worldly are drawn to the spiritual life) I might send out someone to find out what they could that would enable me to better assist the growing numbers of those in need. The better this shepard was able to perform his information gathering activities, the better prepared the monastery and the people it served, but the greater the schism between the monastic/spiritual life he had intended to lead, and the worldly, morally ambiguous and violent life he was leading actually. The shepard returns to the monastery after making his way back to it after the war (and what fresh hells was he exposed to on the three year journey back?) and attempts to return to the monastic life and tries to integrate his experiences, unsuccessfully. So now he is back in the world, still trying to do so, or perhaps still involved in sedition and keeping contacts and information flowing to the abbey.

The nice thing here is that ambiguity, so wonderful for our story-telling purposes. Further, it gives Book an agenda, hence motive for behaving in unexpected ways.

By the way, my take on "I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that leave us?", is complete puzzlement at this stage. The words imply that Book forgives Jayne even if he IS guilty, but the harsh tone of voice implies that Book does NOT forgive him even if he happens to be innocent. Further, it's not yet established that what River sees and hears is telepathy or prognostication or a symbolic representation of deep truths or simple hallucinations or logical projections of her own suppositions and emotional states onto other people. If she perceives that Jayne is her enemy and Book her friend, the remarks make sense as HER thoughts as much as possibly representing their thoughts. So, I've been waiting on more developement of the relationship between the two of them. I very much see the character of Jayne as representing maturation, and that it is the job of his character to be brought up to true manhood, by his growing relationship with the remainder of the crew.
(By the way WH, your sexy name and courtly manners caused me to have to set a spell to compose myself. I'd heard about the power of the internet to magnify emotional response, now I know for myself!)

Lunatikat - "I could while away the hours, conversing with the flowers..." oh well, you know the rest.

JK

Monday, October 20, 2003 3:15 PM

I don't think Book is talking to Jayne when he says "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not..."

But I can't really say why, right now

JK

VETERAN

Tuesday, October 21, 2003 3:09 AM

If your blowing smoke it's Gandalf like smoke rings. In otherwords, I think you're on target.

HUMBLE

Monday, November 24, 2003 10:24 AM

revised my guess on what book was prior to becoming a shepherd. think he was a judge or a prosecuting attorney. ("i don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not"). more than likely he was what they used to call a "hanging judge".

JAYNEFAN

Thursday, December 4, 2003 4:06 PM

My current take on Book:

Someone - could be anyone from Alliance authorities to discontented Alliance faction to Independent sympathisers to underground Independent HQ - has noticed that Mal Reynolds, ex-Independent officer, is flying round the verse apparently engaged on petty crime. Someone wonders whether this might actually be a cover for political activity. Could he actually be passing information/arms/whatever between old Independents? They want to know, so that they can stamp it out/manipulate it/feed into it/co-operate with it.

Book has been sent out by this group (which contains someone with enough influence to get hold of a super VIP ID card) to keep close to Mal and to find out whether he has a secret agenda.

When Book first turned up claiming to be a hitch-hiker, Kaylee noticed that he was looking at the ships, not at their destinations. Unless he was acting at random, he was trying to find someone in particular, not to go somewhere in particular.

Even if he is an Alliance agent, he has no interest in turning in the Tams; that might get Mal & co into deep trouble, and thus jeopardise his mission, which is more important. His role is to stay with the ship, monitor the ship, and protect the ship and her crew, at least until he has completed his mission by proving one way or the other what Mal is really doing.

And my take on Book not giving a hump is based more on the manner in which he delivered the line than the words themselves. It suggested to me that he's not just more than what he pretends to be, he's someone quite different from what he pretends to be.

Jaynefan

CHANNAIN

Thursday, December 4, 2003 8:20 PM

Okay, we've written tomes on how Book is more than he claims to be. Here's a few "What ifs..."

What if...he was in the military once upon a time, but resigned because something happened that made him see what the Alliance really was. Swinging from one extreme to the other, he went into ministry.

What if...he was one of the original founders of the Independent movement?

What if...he just happens to be related to an Alliance official who's far enough up in the government that Book was granted diplomatic immunity after the movement fell?

Okay ya'll - you'll let me know if I'm spiraling off into the black on my own here, won't you?

Firefly Artwork Series
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

RISKEVERYTHING

Friday, December 5, 2003 3:46 AM

Let's first clear up a few things:

River is psychic. It is clearly shown in the "Safe" episode, starting during the dance where she stops dancing when Mal and Jayne (miles away) find Book shot and dying.

When Simon is kidnapped she finds him easily in the woods. Given that she's a genius I won't account that to psychic ability.

In the mountain village she tells Simon "we won't be here long." She also tell Simon and the nurse what happened to Ruby, the mute girl. The ignorant hillbilly nurse rings the town bell claiming River is a witch. The Patron of the village comes to question her, and instead of answering she starts to tell about how he murdered the old Patron to become the new one. He slaps her to stop her, says the's a witch and reads minds and spins falsehoods. Then he demands she be burned at the stake. Finally, right after Simon stands next to her on the platform and tells the townsfolk "Light it," River says, "It's time to go." She does not say 'It's time to die.' and she was not being philosophical. Right after her statement, Serenity flies overhead and the rescue begins.

NOW PLEASE LET ME DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PSYCHIC AND TELEPATHIC. (Note, in the OiS episode Wash comments on her being Psychic; there is no mention of telepathic. This is the oft-used literary event called fore-shadowing, which I've found is used extensively in almost every episode of FireFly.)

Psychic is the ability to see past, present, and possibly even future events. It often requires the person to be "tuned in" by contact or at least proximity with a person or object.

Telepathy is the ability to read people's minds. It's pure and simple, which is why it is utterly not suited for a complex show like FireFly. For River to be telepathic would religate her to the role of "Counselor Troy".

Please understand the difference and realize how it effects your thoughts about Book's past.
River didn't read Book's mind because she can't. She didn't read Jayne's mind either. What she did do, is see a scene from their lives- possibly the most dramatic, or at least the most recent, act that left them with a guilty conscience. You will notice that every time she has a psychic occurence it has to do with the burden of guilt: the young girl Ruby is the only one to survive when her mother tries to kill both her daughters (her older sister kills her mother in defense, but also dies in the event), the Patron who'd killed his predecessor to achieve power in the community, Jayne who'd tried to sell her and her brother out because "I got stupid, the money was too good."

And Book... Book's most dramatic/traumatic, and possibly most recent and unresolved source of guilt, has to do with "I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not, what do you think of that?"

Yes, Book does have ties to the Alliance, and has been in a position to pass judgement on others. It is the only way to account for his favorable treatment and release by the Alliance cruiser. (Safe)

He has seen the darkness in his soul and is now "seeking the light" so to speak. He is trying to change who he was and become someone better. "You don't fix faith, River, faith fixes you." (Jaynestown)

By trying to do enough good with what time he has left he is hoping to compensate for all the evil things he has done. He is afraid that when it is time for God to pass judgement on him, he might recieve a divine "I don't give a hump..." from 'the man upstairs'. He is afraid to die before doing his great, good deed.
(Out of Gas, the dialog between Book and River:
Book is sitting on his bunk reading his Bible when River walks into his doorway...
River-"Don't be afriad. That's what it says: Don't be afriad."
Book-"Yes"
River-"But you are afriad."
Book-"Yes"
River-"You're afriad that we'll run out of air, that we'll die gasping. But we won't, that's not going to happen. We'll freeze to death first.")
When Joss said "It won't be what you think." he didn't really give us any information at all. Book has done an enormously evil deed, and a

RISKEVERYTHING

Friday, December 5, 2003 3:47 AM

whoops- double-posted

JAYNEFAN

Monday, December 8, 2003 3:23 PM

RiskEverything wrote:

Quote:
You will notice that every time she has a psychic occurence it has to do with the burden of guilt

I like that, but what's the guilt she senses in Badger? "Skipped off home early, running graft jobs here and there. Spent some time in the lock down, but less than you claim. And you're what? Petty thief with delusions of standing? Sad, little king of a sad, little hill." (Shindig)

Is Badger guilty because he's not a bigger criminal?

Jaynefan

JK

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 4:03 AM

Nah, River's psychic alright, but there's nothing to suggest that she can't read minds. That all she has to work with is guilt. Also, she can sense non-human things coming (i.e. Serenity or the fire in Out of Gas).

On the way down I noticed someone saying Jubal Early was psychic like River, to which I say a big no. Jubal was about as psychic as my big left toe. Which is to say, not much.

JK

SUNSHYNE

Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jaynefan:
[I like that, but what's the guilt she senses in Badger? "Skipped off home early, running graft jobs here and there. Spent some time in the lock down, but less than you claim. And you're what? Petty thief with delusions of standing? Sad, little king of a sad, little hill." (Shindig)

This is an example of her vast store of knowledge more than her psychic abilities, as well as her interesting way of hearing (ie. through the walls/floors of the ship).

Posit 1. She recognizes his accent and replicates it "easily as breathing." Could be that she has learned or studied dialects at some point.

By which follows 2. She has some knowledge of where that accent came from and the particularities of the culture of the area. Again, not out of the realm for her to have studied at some point.

And one also assumes that 3. As the crew deal with Badger on a not irregular basis, she has probably heard enough about him to draw some conclusions.

She knows his TYPE and with her brilliant brain can deduce further what a man of his personality would do. (Perhaps also related to the culture of which she has knowledge.)

River also reads people very well when she is having her sane moments. It's not so much psychic revelation as that sort of "sixth sense" you have sometimes, getting a good or bad feeling about someone you've just meant. But like everything else about her, River's perception is heightened far above those vague hunches we get.