the angel finale

POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Thursday, October 28, 2004 20:26
VIEWED: 8023
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IDEFIX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:29 PM

I think it was Lorne because Lorne couldn't do any of the other's jobs. he simply was available and it was a simple and not very dangerous job to go with Lindsey let him off the bad guys and shoot him afterwards when he's not expecting anything.

what I never got was why Wes was sent on a job he couldn't do. was it just bad luck? it seemed to me he never had a chance to kill his assigned enemy and it was just sad to see him fail at the end after coming such a long way from the boy who never could do anything right to the hero he was at the end. that he dies was right and the best thing they could have done. this guy wanted to die. he was the only one of the gang who really had a reason to die a hero because life had nothing left for him. but to die failing was sad. he shouldn't have needed Illyria to finish his job for him after doing her own without breaking a sweat. that belittled him in a way I wouln't have wanted to see ever.

everything else about the end of AtS was perfect.

Lorne leaving because he's not a fighter at heart was right. he left his home dimension because of it, it would have been just wrong for him to die in battle. his battle was killing the unsuspecting lindsey. it was necessary and right but Lorne is no killer and never will be. it was a big step for him to do something like that. a sad last action for our unwillig hero, who'd rather be an entertainer.

the day before the battle was just perfect. Gun goint to see Anne and his old gang. Spike reading his bad poetry in a bar and getting cheered for it. Angel going to see his son one last time. Wes tending to Illyria because he doesn't have a perfect last day. sad but true.

Idefix

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:10 PM

WAAAAAHHHHH! I cried through his whole death scene again!! *sniff* *blubber* I'm such a wuss, but I can't help it! I hated having Wesley die, but on top of that there comes the realization that there will be no more Angel ever....it makes a gal weep. (But how cool that he died with his eyes open?)

As to why Wes was sent to his doom, Vail was the most powerful, and only Wes had the means to stop him. Vail mentioned that Wes was "unstable" and Angel used that interest to his advantage by sending Wes. And Wesley was the only one of the group with enough power, knowledge, and courage to even remotely stand up to the powerful wizard demon. I do kind of wish his death scene was a bit longer. *sniff*

Killing Lindsey was done out of necessity, and I think Angel knew Lindsey wouldn't have too much of a problem killing his set of demons. That's why he sent Lorne, to make sure Lindsey would never turn on him. It still sucks that they had to make Lorne into a killer, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

EST120

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
what I never got was why Wes was sent on a job he couldn't do. was it just bad luck? it seemed to me he never had a chance to kill his assigned enemy and it was just sad to see him fail at the end after coming such a long way from the boy who never could do anything right to the hero he was at the end. that he dies was right and the best thing they could have done. this guy wanted to die. he was the only one of the gang who really had a reason to die a hero because life had nothing left for him. but to die failing was sad. he shouldn't have needed Illyria to finish his job for him after doing her own without breaking a sweat. that belittled him in a way I wouln't have wanted to see ever.

i do not think wes' job was impossible for him. what i do not understand is that wes (as far as i can tell) has never really used magic as a weapon. he uses it to heal, to reverse bad spells or protect, but never really to outwardly harm. where in the world does he start getting these fireball things? his death is sad. probably the saddest moment in the finale, but i think cyvus vail was probably the member of the circle most capable of going toe to toe with any member of the crew as he showed in the episode where connor has to kill sahjan (sp?). i think (other than angel), wes probably got the hardest assignment. angel and wes are probably closest when it comes to friendships on the show (at that point, with cordelia gone). maybe it is logical that angel would trust wes with one of the more important parts.

perhaps his inability to kill vail without illyria is more indicative of his hopelessness. his immense sense of loss with the death of fred. he does not really have his heart into anything.

just a side note. i LOVED hamilton in this episode. he was great. i love his speeches to angel as he is tossing him around the lobby of wolfram and hart. great stuff. my favorite is when he head butts connor and says "what is with you people?" right before tossing him into the elevator doors. so cool.

IDEFIX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:32 PM

I don't think Wes was the best for this job. Illyria was far stronger and she did manage to do Wes's job for him when she showed up. and she didn't seem to be too challenged by it either.

and I also don't think Wes was not into it. he seemed to try his best, it just wasn't remotely enough. Wes is not a badass magician, he never was. he performes a few spells here and there but more like Giles does, when it needs to be done and with preparation and a book and lots of other stuff to make it happen. if it were Willow I wouldn't argue, she's supposed to be magical right to the ends of her colour-changing hair. if she wants to and believes in herself she can just kill anyone with her magic, nothing but her will and her power required. but Wesley? he's not like that, he always was the brains of the operation, not the spiritual/macical power. how was he supposed to defeat a magician as powerful as that? I still don't get it. sending him to his ultimate failure wasn't right. why not send Illyria to kill tha mage in the first place? Wes might have had far better cards in shooting the guys Illyria smashed. that would have been more his kinda game.

I'm just ranting because they let my hero fail before he died, that wasn't fair, he didn't need that. but Joss never gives us what we want, he always gives us what we need and now he made Wesley's death a real tragic one.

but as far as death scenes go I still prefer Fred's. that was powerfully sad and heartbreaking.

Idefix

GROUNDED

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:04 PM

To be honest I thought Wes' death scene was a little comical. It was like 'we're going to kill Wes and we're going to make you cry' but it was too overblown. The idea of having Illyria appear as Fred for him was good but it was presented in a far too schmalzy manner.

I also agree with the fact that Wes and Gunn were given assignments above their level of capability. I'd have liked to have seen a little more thought put into their plans - perhaps Angel having prepared something beforehand since he knew what was going down. The poisoning was clever but the rest weren't.

And Lorne killing Lindsey was just classic. Shocking, well-acted, true to character. It almost made me believe I'd been transported back to Season 1, the illusion only being shattered by Lindsey's hair ;)

IDEFIX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
To be honest I thought Wes' death scene was a little comical. It was like 'we're going to kill Wes and we're going to make you cry' but it was too overblown. The idea of having Illyria appear as Fred for him was good but it was presented in a far too schmalzy manner.

I have to agree with that. I'm german and since we are the inventors of schmalz (it's a german word) I'm pretty much allergic to it. we germans tend to hate ourselves and everything that came from us, comes from the crappy history I think. plus we're sarcastic and contrary by nature.

Wes' death didn't touch me, whereas Fred's death was really really well done. you could see Fred's fear and Wesley's helplessness. he was just breaking down with grief. not being able to do anything. and she tried to be strong and reasuring and it didn't work because she was so scared and in pain. that followed by the EP where Illyria changes into Fred and we have to watch Wes seeing her do that,pretending to be the person he loved. that was hard to watch and that's what really makes powerful impressions that last.

the only thing on TV that I can remember affecting me like that was the Farscape EP 'The Choice' where Aeryn mourns for John. the death scene in the EP before was ok but I think it was overly long and drawn out, but the mourning EP was perfect, followed by meeting the other John back on Moya it was powerful TV and that's scarce.

Idefix

MRSMACK

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:04 PM

I think that we are probably overanalyzing the situation. Who else but Wesley is left to fight Vail. Spike is slotted for saving the baby. That is probably very important to Angel, because the baby is innocent and doesn’t deserve death. Spike has the best chance of getting the baby back, and as such does so. Gunn has no chance whatsoever against Vail. However it is likely that he can kill the politician and does so. Illyria is to loose of a cannon to be trusted. I think that she got lucky when she killed Vail in that he just saw Fred, and he assumed that she was a weak little girl. I guess when you are extremely powerful you tend to overlook some of the things that can kill you.

I believe the whole meaning of the show was about finding something good and wholesome to believe in and then fighting for it. Angel knew that they were going to die, he said as much to Spike. But all men die, that’s not important. What is important is why they died and what they were fighting for. James Marsters said that he thought that important issue was fighting for what you believe in, now whether or not you win or lose.

As such, each had a task, and it probably killed two of them if you count Gunn, who would have been dead in minutes. Everyone knew the risks. Being heroes they went ahead and accepted them, and then did their job. The consequences of those actions, of stopping evil, if just for a while was probably the death of all of them, but it is a price they most certainly were willing to pay.

EST120

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:23 PM

here is a thought. maybe the assignments that angel gives are a combination of whomever he feels is most suited to do the job AND a slightly more personal revenge kind of thing. during the meeting of the circle, when angel signs away the shanshu prophecy, vail says about wesley, "we're interested in mr. wyndam-pryce. he seems intriguing unstable.". senator brucker says about gunn, "mr. gunn on the other hand, does not. it's a shame; he had so much potential.". not that this is exactly a slap in the face to wes and gunn, but more of a mild "calling them out" kind of thing. vail is basically saying that wes could be turned to evil (a fact that angel alludes to later) and brucker is pretty much saying that gunn is not really worth their time. perhaps angel's thoughts are let wes and gunn show them what they are really capable of. of course, gunn succeeds by running an axe through brucker's forehead while wes puts up a bit of a fight (though he succumbs). plus, brucker protects herself with vampires and who else better to deal with that than gunn?

kind of a stretch, but it KIND of makes sense, right?

GROUNDED

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:31 PM

All I know is it whupped the Buffy finale's ass ;)

CRAZYHORSE

Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:06 AM

oh god yeah, Fred's death was horrible, I definately cried... and it wasn't so much when[\i] wesley died so much as afterwards, when the cold emotionless illyria was actually grieving for him that hit me. That was a nice touch, even if Wes failed at his mission, he still succeeded with illyria a little.

Ok, yeah, I even teared up a little bit when Lorne had to kill Lindsay (which is kinda weird for me to type cuz my name's lindsay :P). Not for Lindsay's sake, but for Lornes... I guess I was a little hormonal or something when I saw the finale air, lol, but I also thought Angel did the right thing in having lorne do it. Lindsay would have stabbed them all in the back the first chance he got.

"...what'd yall order a dead guy for?"

"Oh I got respect, i'm just sayin'... GOLD"

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