Does anyone else not like Lost?

POSTED BY: Thrawn
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 03:21
VIEWED: 11248
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STARPILOTGRAINGER

Monday, October 25, 2004 9:17 PM

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Originally posted by Radhil:
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Originally posted by Shiny:
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Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
They're not the big mysteries -what the hell is up with the island, why are there polar bears, what's the big invisible monster, where _is_ the island, etc. Maybe they'll attempt to solve them, but I get the feeling they have no intention to. The mini-mysteries are what they use to distract us from being jerked around on the bigger issues.

I'm worried about this as well. It's the big mysteries that keep you coming back, so it's not in their interest to solve them. And if they do solve them, they have to invent new ones to replace them. It's hard to imagine keeping this up for more than a season or two before it gets real old...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

This viewpoint has me scratching my head. Mulder didn't find his sister or his aliens in the first half of the first season of X-Files, did he (ok, bad example, that sucked in the end)? John didn't make it back to Earth early on in Farscape, did he? Did Picard run into Q and smack him down, ever?

The big mysteries are for big episodes. Season openers and closers, big momentum changers, those kinda weeks. We've had five. I don't see how it could be time yet.

I think you're missing a little of the intent behind the criticism.

It's fine to have big mysteries and not deal with them right away. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it so it doesn't feel like a cheat. In X-Files, you don't have them confront the mysteries every episode - they're mobile (and, in fact, that's a pretty bad example because by the end, it was clear that the creators never had a clue what they were doing, and the mysteries were resolved on the fly or tossed away without caring if they made sense with the clues they left behind - and they made the mistake of just piling on more mysteries). With John in Farscape, there really was no way for him to get even close to getting home for a good while, they didn't make it a focus - the focus was surviving the current situation... when getting home _did_ become a valid goal, they handled it quite well... a slow buildup of him getting closer and closer to it, and finally, not at the series finale, but in the course of the series, he actually _made_ it home and they dealt with the consequences of that.

Here, they're _constantly_ confronted with the mysteries. They have no real mobility, all they can do is go somewhere else on the island, which is what the whole mystery is about. It's like if every episode of X-Files was Mulder following a lead about his sister (or even dealing with aliens). There's a big invisible monster wandering around and showing up in every other episode almost. If they keep jerking us around with 'Hey, maybe we'll find out what this is all about' and then say, 'Ha-ha, fooled you, no you won't, try again next week! Oh, and here's another mystery, too!' that's a bad thing.
Again, it's only a feeling, but I get a strong feeling that's how they're going to deal with the big mysteries, so by the point that they finally reveal them, I won't care anymore.

I want them to have a plan in advance, not only for what the mysteries are, but _when_ to reveal them and where the show goes from there, and the answer shouldn't be 'in the very last episode'. (Also, binding shows too closely to a season schedule gives a certain predictability of its own. I remember in Alias, there were times towards the end when I knew 'okay, so and so isn't going to be discovered here even though it seems like s/he might, because it's not the season finale.'. Their one great coup in that regard was when they dismantled SD-6 in one middle of the season episode. Never saw it coming.

I hope they do have this plan. When I first started watching the show, I came up with a couple plans of how I'd deal with the whole mystery, so I know it can be done. I just have the feeling, so far, that they don't.

Star Pil

RADHIL

Monday, October 25, 2004 11:44 PM

Good points all. They encourage more muttering from me.

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Here, they're _constantly_ confronted with the mysteries. They have no real mobility, all they can do is go somewhere else on the island, which is what the whole mystery is about. It's like if every episode of X-Files was Mulder following a lead about his sister (or even dealing with aliens).

Allright, let me suggest a perspective shift. To me, the island is a non-issue. The island is Mysterious (do not forget the capitals here). The island is Strange. The island is quite possibly Unreal. There is a mystery to it, and I have no doubt that there will be an answer to it... eventually. The point of it is not to have a mystery though. The point of it is setting. So don't let that define the show.

In X-Files (lets ignore everything past where it was apparent that the creators had no idea WTF they were doing), you had the central conspiracy - Mr. Cigarettes, Mulder's sister, 99 angles of backstory - but day to day, it was the paranormal freaky stuff that set the show. Did we ever question why there was freaky paranormal stuff? No. Extrapolate to Farscape - did we ever question why there were aliens and ships and wormholes, why the bad guys looked human even? No (crazily enough, the show provides the latter answer in the mini, if you were paying attention - but following my thread here, it's not central at all). The point of these shows is watching the people in it act, react, and overreact.

I don't care much about the ending of the mystery of the island - like you, I hope it'll be good, but that's not why I watch the show. If plot reveleations is all it was, I would've stopped watching Alias last year, when it got utterly silly (I did come close). I kept watching not to see what it all was about, but to see what happened to it's heroine. To see what she did. The whole Rambaldi mythology thing could turn out to be some elaborate rich man's hoax for all I care, a McGuffin of the highest order.

The island is backdrop. The island does have it's mystery and that is central to the show - but only as it reflects itself on the characters. All the shows that have really screwed up their plots and their characters have done so when the mysteries took center stage, became the important part - X-Files did this, I believe Twin Peaks did this, the failed John Doe did this, Dark Angel flirted with it (regrettably it found it's feet only to get axed for different reasons), La Femme Nikita was drowning with it at points, Alias started to do this and may yet recover. If the characters are written well, if their mysteries are revealed well (my opinion is they damn well are), you can be assured that eventaully, the island (for what is setting and plot but the unspoken characters), when it comes time for it to step up, will be written well too.

This is ranting, I'm aware. Not sure how to take an axe to it and shorten it though.

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I hope they do have this plan. When I first started watching the show, I came up with a couple plans of how I'd deal with the whole mystery, so I know it can be done. I just have the feeling, so far, that they don't.

The plan is easy. "OK, they're all really dead, and this is Purg. Or the island's a reflection, and the little kid likes dinos. When's lunch?" It's the execution that is key. Has the show given you any reason to doubt it can execute?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

STARPILOTGRAINGER

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:40 AM

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Originally posted by Radhil:
Allright, let me suggest a perspective shift. To me, the island is a non-issue. The island is Mysterious (do not forget the capitals here). The island is Strange. The island is quite possibly Unreal. There is a mystery to it, and I have no doubt that there will be an answer to it... eventually. The point of it is not to have a mystery though. The point of it is setting. So don't let that define the show.

I think the problem is this is that's what the _show_ seems to be doing. If they just crashed on the island, radio was out and they knew they had little hope of rescue, hell, even gave the 16 year-old message, I could look past it, and say it's not defining the show. The show could then be off the characters and how they react to the situation.

But they constantly give us the Invisible Monsters, and only show us reactions, with the people who see it not talkinga bout it. We see every episode the things about their situation that just don't make sense, like Polar Bears, the miracle of Locke, etc. _They_'re shoving it in our faces, and inviting us to wonder at the mystery behind it all.

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In X-Files (lets ignore everything past where it was apparent that the creators had no idea WTF they were doing), you had the central conspiracy - Mr. Cigarettes, Mulder's sister, 99 angles of backstory - but day to day, it was the paranormal freaky stuff that set the show. Did we ever question why there was freaky paranormal stuff?

Yes, but that's a convention of the series, that the paranormal exists - they didn't posit it as being all one being mystery tied together. Sure, you can sort of say the same with Lost, but to me, they're _playing off_ the mystery. They're like what the X-Files would be if the Conspiracy was every single episode. They're not letting us get away from it, because there's no where else to go.

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I don't care much about the ending of the mystery of the island - like you, I hope it'll be good, but that's not why I watch the show. If plot reveleations is all it was, I would've stopped watching Alias last year, when it got utterly silly (I did come close). I kept watching not to see what it all was about, but to see what happened to it's heroine. To see what she did. The whole Rambaldi mythology thing could turn out to be some elaborate rich man's hoax for all I care, a McGuffin of the highest order.

I disagree somewhat. I allow wide latitude for
the resolution for plots, but the resolution does have to make sense, and I have to have the sense that they knew the resolution when they started (it's one thing to start writing a story without knowing where you're going, it's another to start showing it to your audience). It is about the characters, but sometimes, and this is what I'm fearful of, the characters actions become used to service the mystery, rather than the mystery itself being used to illuminate the characters.
If a character does something, not because it's what their character would do, but because if they didn't, the mystery is blown, then that's bad, IMHO.

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The island is backdrop. The island does have it's mystery and that is central to the show - but only as it reflects itself on the characters. All the shows that have really screwed up their plots and their characters have done so when the mysteries took center stage, became the important part - X-Files did this, I believe Twin Peaks did this, the failed John Doe did this, Dark Angel flirted with it (regrettably it found it's feet only to get axed for different reasons), La Femme Nikita was drowning with it at points, Alias started to do this and may yet recover. If the characters are written well, if their mysteries are revealed well (my opinion is they damn well are), you can be assured that eventaully, the island (for what is setting and plot but the unspoken characters), when it comes time for it to step up, will be written well too.

Perhaps, perhaps. How

MELEAUX

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:40 AM

I think you guys are stressing too much. It's a diversion. A bit of escapism. A pleasant way to pass an hour. You've got beautiful people on a beautiful island and an unusual storyline. A bit intriging. It doesn't have to be disected and critiqued to death. I like it. It is the first time since my beloved Firefly went off the air that I have thought about what an upcoming episode
of a show might be like. Oh yea-
I think the monster is a telepathic, alien, robotic dinasaur!

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

NEUTRINOLAD

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:10 AM

The problem with Lost, as I see it, is that it's on American television. Which means indefinite length, which means nothing can ever really happen. If it were, say, 30 episodes to tell a complete story, then the characters could undergo real change and the plot could really advance. But that means the series would have to have a definite beginning-middle-end structure, which is totally contrary to US television practice.
But maybe they'll surprise us, who knows?

RADHIL

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:50 AM

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It's a diversion. A bit of escapism. A pleasant way to pass an hour.

What makes you think this conversation is any different?

I'm escaping bills through BSing, personally.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

LEGALBEGAL

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:59 AM

For all of you who are worried about the supernatural asspects of the show I have read that the shows creators and producers are going to resolve the big mysteries by the end of the season.

Once we know whats going on, all of the supernatural stuff will be backdrop to a great survival story. But, first they have to set everything up. The way I see it if we give the show some time and it will get better.

RADHIL

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:01 AM

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The problem with Lost, as I see it, is that it's on American television. Which means indefinite length, which means nothing can ever really happen.

Well, that's kinda cynical standing on a website dedicated to an American show.

American TV is mass produced and cookie-cutter most of the time. This disheartening fact is true. It is, however, not required standards & practices.

Case in point: Look up Babylon 5. That one was planned with full beginning-to-end plot structure from the start.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

RADHIL

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:21 AM

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Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
_They_'re shoving it in our faces, and inviting us to wonder at the mystery behind it all.

Eh... allright... true. Maybe I'm just immunized to most standard forms of hype.

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They're not letting us get away from it, because there's no where else to go.

They can go to flashbacks. Which are actually kinda keen so far.

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I disagree somewhat. I allow wide latitude for the resolution for plots, but the resolution does have to make sense, and I have to have the sense that they knew the resolution when they started (it's one thing to start writing a story without knowing where you're going, it's another to start showing it to your audience).

And that, again, lies all in execution. Because really, what about a bunch of people crash-landing from 40k feet with more than three body parts intact on a magical island makes sense?

But I guess that's what you mean about wide latitude.

I guess at this point we're well into the realm of subjectiveness - one man's good execution is another's train wreck - so we're probably dead-ended there.

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I think they failed because the mystery took centre stage _and the writers didn't know what they were going to do after it was solved_.

I have yet to see a writer who risked the first part without committing the grevious error of the second. So we're agreeing with different angles here.

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1) JJ Abrahms. He's the creator and showrunner. But, frankly, Alias has disappointed me lately with execution particularly in the areas of 'not giving me the feeling they know where they're going' and 'they're jerking us around too much'. It may be wrong to hold it against him, but hey, they're using his name to sell the show, so they should expect it.

Fair enough. Hell, even I said it.

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2) The Marshall in Lost's first couple episodes. I've mentioned it before. When he woke up, he told Jack that Kate was dangerous, and shouldn't be trusted. Then, despite him asking repeatedly what she'd done, he refused to answer, and instead met with her privately and made it clear he wanted to die, and he did so before he could say anything else.

This is a legit gripe. I got the very strange vibe however, that the Marshall part of the Marshall was a misdirect. That while Kate probably had all hell of criminal problems, there was something far more personal about his retrieval mission gliding under the surface. It was never said outright, but hella implied. It was a lot like Locke's legs - if you were paying attention, you knew he was paralyzed halfway through that ep. Naturally, we didn't get to see all of the Marshall's story. But that, to me anyway, left those loose ends with a purpose, to be tugged on later.

Whether I'm right or your worries are right... well, what'd be the fun in knowing in advance...

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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