My thoughts on the Middel East

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 24, 2025 02:16
VIEWED: 12947
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THGRRI

Monday, August 11, 2014 10:58 PM

My insights into why the critics on the far right are wrong. They always want to jump in feet first as the winds change direction in the Middle East. A place where moods, politics and loyalties change as easily as the sands shift with the winds. George Bush sold the world on Iraq and the Middle East being ripe for Democracy. So we invested Billions, even trillions out of our treasury. We saw thousands of American soldiers die and around 45 to fifty thousand wounded. Well Iraq has collapsed. The conservatives here will say it is Obamas fault for not leaving troops behind. Iraq is sovereign and they told us to leave. He had no choice. Even if we were still there, we would be playing out the role of being Maliki’s private army. An army to keep in check the various sects who Maliki strong armed out of the military and from places of power within his administration. No, that is not a good role for us to play. Iraq fell apart because the politics within Iraq was not right. The people of Iraq were not ready to come together to create an inclusive government. Lesson 1, pouring lots of guns, money and troops into a Middle Eastern country will not work in terms of stabilizing it.

The next thing we tried was limited air strikes with no boots on the ground in Libya. After we achieved our objective, it too fell apart because the politics within the country was wrong. The people could not come together to create an inclusive government. So limited air strikes will not work to stabilize a Middle Eastern country. Two strategies tried and failed.

Without learning the lessons of these two wars the Republicans are all over the President for not arming the rebels in Syria. They blame him for the development of ISIS as though arming the middle class in Syria would lead to victory. A victory over a trained army supplied and supported by Russia and Iran. Easy to say arm the freedom fighters in Syria but we don’t know who they are. We cannot find many who are not crazy to whom we should give weapons. There is no one there who has a planned out agenda we can get behind. With that the thousands who flock to Syria to fight are all radical. You don’t see moderates leaving home to take up the cause. Syria too, is a country that has the same make up as the rest of the Middle East. So why do some believe that had we armed a few school teachers this would end in success? One good thing is Hamas was helping to prop up the Syrian government and they just got the snot kicked out of them by Israel. This will hinder the support they can provide to the Syrian government.

Addressing what’s happening in the Middle East means we need to be very selective and calm. ISIS could be rolled back rather quickly with air and intelligence support from us provided to the right people. The moderate leaning Muslims across the Middle East (of which there are many more than radicals) have to make up their mind they have had enough. They have to stand up in mass. The Sunnis will decide they do not want to live like ISIS demands and will route them as they did Al Qaeda. We will help them as we did before but they have to be ready. The Kurds have been our best allies there and we should continue to support them. As that transpires and Iraq picks new leadership things will shift again. One telltale sign the moderates may have had enough is the lack of support for Hamas across the Arab world.

To all those out there who have criticized the United States for not helping to force change in the past, perhaps living with the devil you know looks a little more like good policy than it did a week ago. We can no more create a country of our choosing in the Middle East with our army and money as we can stand by and do nothing. One thing is for certain. At least 1 in 10 of the radicals who head the Middle East to fight come from Europe. They better wake up and help form a collation that works together to determine who we assist and how we help the Middle East through its transition. It’s London and France that are going to get it the worst when these radicals return home

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Monday, August 11, 2014 11:39 PM

The similarities to Vietnam are scary. How long do we prop up a weak and corrupt regime that we think is on our side, but is only loyal because we'll do the heavy work and let them cruise along; then collapse when we expect them to carry on the job by themselves?

No matter how much we hope and claim so, their values do not match ours. ALL sides there are anti-American and pro-Iranian, it's just a question of degree, and how much they have to pretend to agree with us to get us to keep doing the work and sending the money.

THGRRI

Monday, August 11, 2014 11:58 PM

Quote:
…New
The similarities to Vietnam are scary. How long do we prop up a weak and corrupt regime that we think is on our side, but is only loyal because we'll do the heavy work and let them cruise along; then collapse when we expect them to carry on the job by themselves?

We are not going to prop up anyone. We will assist the Sunni Kurds to the North who have always been our allies. We will assist the Iraqi army when they join with the Sunni’s in territory now controlled by ISIS to route ISIS but probably only sparingly until then.

Quote:
….New
No matter how much we hope and claim so, their values do not match ours. ALL sides there are anti-American and pro-Iranian, it's just a question of degree, and how much they have to pretend to agree with us to get us to keep doing the work and sending the money.

Many of the Muslims in the world who like us most live in Iran. Don’t mistake Middle Eastern government’s attitudes for those of its people. Most Arabs do want stability and freedom. It is just their understanding of what freedom means varies from ours. If anything good comes from ISIS it may be that more Muslims see the need for a separation when it comes to church and state. That to follow scriptures to their purist form may not be so desirable.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 3:27 AM

Point of fact, Obama pulled us out, we were not told to leave. The focal point of all this was the Status of Forces agreement between Iraq and the US.

He was far more interested in keeping a campaign promise over a war he never thought we should have started than keeping peace in the region.

As for recent events in Iraq, standard operating procedure for Barry - blame anyone but himself. He was TOLD about what was going on with ISIS, and yet he didn't care. Not his problem. Any screw up taking place in Iraq was , in HIS view, a direct result of Bush's failed policy, and Barry could care less.

And now he's trying to say it was 'bad intel' which kept him from knowing just how bad ISIS really was. This is the same ISIS group that Obama himself referred to as the JV team, in comparison to al- Qaeda.

Effing moron ...

Also, as for Syria, it's pretty simple. We backed the wrong " rebels ". You see, it's not so simple to draw a clean line between Asad and those trying to overthrow him. We would have done well enough to simply back the FSA ( Free Syrian Army ) but noooo. We insanely backed the Muslim Brotherhood supported thugs, which turn out to be - SHOCKER ! ISIS. Blame can be spread around well enough ( Maverick McCain, I'm looking right at YOU ! ) , but the fact of the matter is, Barry is the President. His ties to the Muslim Brotherhood clearly have had a role in all this, and blood is on HIS hands.

THGRRI

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Point of fact, Obama pulled us out, we were not told to leave. The focal point of all this was the Status of Forces agreement between Iraq and the US.

He was far more interested in keeping a campaign promise over a war he never thought we should have started than keeping peace in the region.

As for recent events in Iraq, standard operating procedure for Barry - blame anyone but himself. He was TOLD about what was going on with ISIS, and yet he didn't care. Not his problem. Any screw up taking place in Iraq was , in HIS view, a direct result of Bush's failed policy, and Barry could care less.

And now he's trying to say it was 'bad intel' which kept him from knowing just how bad ISIS really was. This is the same ISIS group that Obama himself referred to as the JV team, in comparison to al- Qaeda.

Effing moron ...

Also, as for Syria, it's pretty simple. We backed the wrong " rebels ". You see, it's not so simple to draw a clean line between Asad and those trying to overthrow him. We would have done well enough to simply back the FSA ( Free Syrian Army ) but noooo. We insanely backed the Muslim Brotherhood supported thugs, which turn out to be - SHOCKER ! ISIS. Blame can be spread around well enough ( Maverick McCain, I'm looking right at YOU ! ) , but the fact of the matter is, Barry is the President. His ties to the Muslim Brotherhood clearly have had a role in all this, and blood is on HIS hands.

Nope not accurate. The only other alternative to leaving was to leave our troops subject to Iraqi laws. If they accidently killed civilians they would have to face an Iraqi court. They are sovereign now and get to make the rules. We would be occupiers if we denied them that and that is not what this country is about. With that being the case we had to leave. The troops their protecting our citizens will only get involved to defend themselves and for training purposes and are constricted by rules of engagement.

That adds up to having no choice. And if you read what I said to start this thread, if we were still there we would be little more that Maliki's puppets. Creating tons more resentment against us by the Sunnis. Who is ISIS and Al Qaeda. When the hostilities we had Sunni friends. Still do in the Kurds.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 3:53 AM

Thanks for the WH party line, but I'm not buying it. The only folks who wanted us out completely were those who support ISIS.

How's that working out for the DEMOCRACY of Iraq now ?

Obama wanted NO troops in Iraq. NONE.

Mitt ?

http://launch.newsinc.com/share.html?trackingGroup=91074&siteSecti
on=breitbartprivate&videoId=26500512

THGRRI

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Thanks for the WH party line, but I'm not buying it. The only folks who wanted us out completely were those who support ISIS.

How's that working out for the DEMOCRACY of Iraq now ?

You can state your opinions Rappy but you can't change the facts. Research anywhere you like and you will find what I said to be true.

"The negotiations foundered over the U.S. demand that American troops receive legal immunity for their actions, a request Maliki was ultimately unable to sell to the anti-U.S. elements of his governing coalition after a war that many Iraqis believe has permanently altered their country for the worse".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/all-us-troops-to
-leave-iraq/2011/10/21/gIQAUyJi3L_story.html

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:01 AM

It's not true. And there in lies the error of your thinking.

If what you said WERE true, then I can see how you'd arrive at the conclusion you did. But it isn't. You're buying the admin's line, and until you educate yourself , there's nothing more I can say on this matter.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true.

Simply find a quote from a reasonably reputable source stating that our troops would have been under U.S. laws whist staying & prove your point then.

But you can't.

Sorry, try again. This has been debunked. Once again, you are demonstrably in error, and ensconced in the endless anti-whom-you-hate bullshit. Feel free to go on, and prove yourself more the idiot than you have already (Heh, if that's even possible at this point).
You proved me right here.
Thanks.

THGRRI

Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not true. And there in lies the error of your thinking.

If what you said WERE true, then I can see how you'd arrive at the conclusion you did. But it isn't. You're buying the admin's line, and until you educate yourself , there's nothing more I can say on this matter.

As I said, research it for yourself. If you think something this big could be factually wrong then it would have to have gotten by the press and everyone else. There is no way to hide whether this is true. Way to many people were involved in this decision. Even the Republicans chalk it up to him not trying hard enough. Really, Really, if the Iraqis wanted us there they would have just agreed to it.

"The negotiations foundered over the U.S. demand that American troops receive legal immunity for their actions, a request Maliki was ultimately unable to sell to the anti-U.S. elements of his governing coalition after a war that many Iraqis believe has permanently altered their country for the worse".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/all-us-troops-to
-leave-iraq/2011/10/21/gIQAUyJi3L_story.html

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