CIA does a major walk-back on Russia being at fault
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:49
VIEWED: 8322
PAGE 5 of 7
Quote:Oh, so it was "G" that's posting of of his ass again? Apologies!
I would love to take credit for that picture Sig but alas that post belongs to G.
Quote:We haven't even established "the facts" yet. Yes, the plane was shot down. That's the only fact so far that's been established, as far as I can tell.
Sig, please, the reason I have had such a hard time dealing with your posts is because you post constantly how the west is up to this or that, has done this or that while showing little regard for and even dismissing the facts.
Quote:I would love to see you hold up the USA to the kind of standard that you expect of Russia.
I would love to see you hold to the same impossibly high standards when judging the rest of the world as when Russia is the one under the microscope.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.
And the Russians would of course be completely honest and forthcoming about such verification. Riiiggghhhttt.
Quote:
Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.
Like reports by several different media outlets about materials in the crash site, such as luggage and parts of the plane, being moved or removed?
What if the U.S. provided copies of radar tracks of the airliner and the missile? Would you consider that "a wealth of detail...hard to fake"?
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Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.
What do you consider "Both sides"? If you're correct, Russia and the Separatists weren't involved at all, so why should they care?
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Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.
Like the separatist leader saying SA-11 missiles were in rebel-held territory when the airliner was shot down?
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Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.
Cute, after the separatists had control of the black boxes for several days before turning them over. Plenty of time for movement, sabotage, alteration of data, etc. Not to mention the lack of chain of custody of the rest of the aircraft and credible reports that parts were moved or removed.
Quote:
That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).
U.S. intelligence has reported that the recordings of Separatists claiming a shoot-down match voiceprint analysis of those same individuals at other times. Not verifiable enough for you, I'd bet.
Quote:
FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"
There is kind'a a war going on there. separatists have been shooting down aircraft and firing rocket artillery at the Kiev forces as well. Think the separatists would go for a cease-fire so the investigation teams can come in? The Netherlands have asked Putin to try to influence such a cease-fire. Do you know if he has done so?
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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Yanno geezer, I'm not going to discuss this too much with you, because you're clearly an ass, like so many others, with a vested interest in not finding the truth, merely confirming your own biases.
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Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.-signy
And the Russians would of course be completely honest and forthcoming about such verification. Riiiggghhhttt.-geezer
It depends on how hard it would be to tamper with. Do they have electronic records that are encrypted, maybe protected with some sort of "block chain" protocol?
Quote:Were the luggage and plane parts moved or removed in a search for bodies? Were the items being filmed at the time of movement or removal to record the initial location? Were the removed items set aside for later return?
Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.-signy
Like reports by several different media outlets about materials in the crash site, such as luggage and parts of the plane, being moved or removed? -geezer
Quote:Same question as about Russian data. Most of it is electronically recorded, in one way or another. Is it encrypted and otherwise secured to be made tamper-proof?
What if the U.S. provided copies of radar tracks of the airliner and the missile? Would you consider that "a wealth of detail...hard to fake"?
Quote:Since BOTH Russia AND the separatists are the accused, they most certainly are interested parties. You couldn't see that, or chose to ignore it? From this quibble alone, I can see that you have an overwhelming bias.
Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.-signy
What do you consider "Both sides"? If you're correct, Russia and the Separatists weren't involved at all, so why should they care?-geezer
Quote:
Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.-signy
Like the separatist leader saying SA-11 missiles were in rebel-held territory when the airliner was shot down?-geezer
The separatist was talking about another group, not his. He isn't presenting self-incriminating evidence, he's trying to distance himself from the mess. Because he's talking about someone else... and not what he directly observed, but what he "heard"... this falls into the realm of "hearsay".
He ALSO went on to say... if you read the story to the end... that the BUK missiles that the other group had were NOT FUNCTIONAL. Another truly biased statement from you.
Quote:There is something called "evidence tape" which indicates when an item has been opened. I don't know how black boxes are made, but considering they're usually used as key pieces of evidence in criminal and civil proceedings, my guess is that they're not only damage-resistant but also tamper-resistant, until accessed, and that -once accessed- they reveal that event.
Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.-signy
Cute, after the separatists had control of the black boxes for several days before turning them over. Plenty of time for movement, sabotage, alteration of data, etc. Not to mention the lack of chain of custody of the rest of the aircraft and credible reports that parts were moved or removed.-geezer
Quote:I need to think about t
That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).-signy
U.S. intelligence has reported that the recordings of Separatists claiming a shoot-down match voiceprint analysis of those same individuals at other times. Not verifiable enough for you, I'd bet.-geezer
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Sig I do not have to lay things out elaborately to make the point that you do not judge things by factual analysis as you claim you do as a scientist. The proof comes from the elaborately laid out denials you post.
I don't need to provide links and a sustained argument. I just have to entice you to post more because the essence of your prejudices is in what you say.
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THUGR, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, so whatever lessons you "think" you've drawn from it are irrelevant.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, so whatever lessons you "think" you've drawn from it are irrelevant.
They are the same lessons everyone else is drawing from this exercise in futility. I have however come to realize you have a profound love for Russia. Knowing that it makes it easier to let you off the hook for your staunch defense of her.
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No, actually I have a profound love of my country, the USA. The original ideas of democracy and freedom are profound and they burn brightly. Which is why it disturbs me so greatly to see us stooping to such depths: conflating profits with freedom and corporations with people, installing tyrants, killing innocent civilians by the millions all over the world, impoverishing whole nations and consigning hundreds of millions to misery... and, of course, lying about it.
This whole episode about Ukraine... which BTW is about to meet at least one of my predictions, if not two... is merely an exercise in me confronting your biases. You think you're better than rappy, but you're not.
The adult, intelligent, unbiased thing to do would be to examine the data even-handedly, but you clearly have your thumb on one side of the scale.
Yanno what I think you should do?
Burn your assumptions to the ground. Create a level field for ideas. Hold each and every one up to a bright white light. Only hold on to the parts that shine clear.
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I read what you say about your love for this country yet all your posts constantly show you supporting our detractors vehemently. I would point out that you are our biggest detractor. The reason I believe what you claim, you love this country to be false, is your repeated willingness to ignore facts at our expense. Not just in the recent threads of this week but always.
No Sig, I don't think so.
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Umm, OK. Ideas and truth not your thing. Freedom, not so much either. Transparent government can go out the window.
Got it.
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