Obama the blowhard
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 17:34
VIEWED: 28456
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:I was responding to NIKI, who said
I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.Quote:I was merely giving examples of civilizations which had the wealth and opportunity, and chose not to, at various points in history not to become conquerors (not at ALL points in history)
That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.
As it turns out, NIKI and I agree on one thing, and that isQuote:This isn't short-term aberration from out history, however, but unfortunately describes the arc of almost our entire development, which began in slavery and genocide and has "progressed" through hemispheric and then world domination and exploitation.
the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.
And what's the point whether other nations would behave the same or not? We criticize Nazi Germany, do we not? We don't try to excuse their behavior because they acted just like some other horrific conquering nation. I hear a lot of excuses about our militarism and inequity. From the right, it's all about fear and greed. From liberals, its to support President Milquetoast, who has betrayed them in every possible way. Nothing ever changes.
Every hemisphere is guilty of all you suggest. Slavery was global and the only way a country could abolish it was if they were practicing it themselves. Genocides around the world including here, mostly ensued from germs. An unintentional consequence of different cultures interacting.
I checked out much of what you claimed here before posting my first question to you. This conversation is much more expansive than you suggest to me now. I only commented because besides misrepresenting this nation you are portraying the histories of the other nations incorrectly.
si shen
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Quote:I'm portraying a part of Chinese history quite correctly. And after the imperial fleet was burned to the waterline, China did not expand its territory beyond its shore.
I only commented because you are portraying the histories of the other nations incorrectly.
AFA whether or not other nations have done what we did... first of all, we clung to slavery as an institution much longer than other western nations.
And, when we talk about periods of conquest, slavery, exploitation, genocide, human sacrifice, or what-have-you, we don't portray those nations/ civilizations as being shining cities on a hill, do we? But we sure make a lot of excuses for ourselves. All I'm trying to do is to get us to recognize our behavior for what it is. No excuses, no rationalizations, no "misrepresentations".
And finally, the sad thing is... all of the crap that we've done to the world, it doesn't even benefit us... yanno, you and me. The only winners out of the clusterfucks that we created are the military, the banks, and the transnationals.
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Your perceptions of the world are based on false hoods. That being the case then your perceptions of this country must also be false. I offer this information on why the Chinese burnt the Royal Fleet to show you it was not for the reasons you imply. Them being better than us.
"If not trade or new horizons, then, what was Zheng He seeking? The seven voyages of the Treasure Fleet were meant to display Chinese might to all the kingdoms and trade ports of the Indian Ocean world, and to bring back exotic toys and novelties for the emperor. In other words, Zheng He's enormous junks were intended to shock and awe other Asian principalities into offering tribute to the Ming".
Why burn the fleet?
"There were three principle reasons for this decision. First, the Yongle Emperor who sponsored Zheng He's first six voyages died in 1424. His son, the Hongle Emperor, was much more conservative and Confucianist in his thought, so he ordered the voyages stopped. (There was one last voyage under Yongle's grandson, Xuande, in 1430-33.)"
"In addition to the political motivation, the new emperor had a financial motivation. The treasure fleet voyages cost Ming China enormous amounts of money; since they were not trade excursions, the government recovered little of the cost. The Hongle Emperor inherited a treasury that was much emptier than it might have been, if not for his father's Indian Ocean adventures. China was self-sufficient; it didn't need anything from the Indian Ocean world, so why send out these huge fleets"?
"Finally, during the reigns of the Hongle and Xuande Emperors, Ming China faced a growing threat to its land borders in the west. The Mongols and other Central Asian peoples made increasingly bold raids on western China, forcing the Ming rulers to concentrate their attention and their resources on securing the country's inland borders".
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/f/zhenghefaq.htm
si shen
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Does it matter what the reasons were? They recognized there was no ultimate percentage - philosophical or economic or military - in being the almighty imperialist. They took a lesson from it and turned their backs on it.
And you think that somehow proves Signy is wrong?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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You suggest "They took a lesson from it and turned their backs on it". That is not what happened at all. You are manufacturing what you believe their frame of mind was when they burned the fleet. Sorry but the historians do not offer that rational as to why they burned it. They present entirely different reasons. Three of which I posted here.
You just can't throw shit out there and see what sticks. He misrepresented the history of this and a lot of other histories as well in this thread.
si shen
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They offer three reasons: it didn't fit with Confucian philosophy, it was too expensive, and it weakened their effort to maintain their land borders. Ie - it didn't pay. It's too bad we can't seem to learn as much.
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Now that I can agree with. We do, do a lot of boneheaded shit.
si shen
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You mean we agree on something??? Oo.Oo.
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:Yanno, the funny thing was, I read exactly the same passage you did before I posted, and I'm pretty sure that I said nothing about the reasons WHY the emperor decided what he decided... or why later emperors decided the same thing for generations afterwards. So I'm not just throwing stuff out to see what sticks, because I didn't throw anything out at all.
You suggest "They took a lesson from it and turned their backs on it". That is not what happened at all. You are manufacturing what you believe their frame of mind was when they burned the fleet. Sorry but the historians do not offer that rational as to why they burned it. They present entirely different reasons. Three of which I posted here.
You just can't throw shit out there and see what sticks. He misrepresented the history of this and a lot of other histories as well in this thread.
In fact, what I was thinking about was the difference between the Roman Empire and the Chinese kingdom. The problem with the Roman Empire is that it over-expanded, cost far more than could be supported. Yanno, kinda like the USA today! If the Roman Emperors ... or, in fact some of our own fearless leaders... had only looked at the military budget and thought to themselves HOLY CRAP! This is costing far more than its bringing in! and kinda, yanno, throttled back to something sustainable, maybe history would have taken an entirely different path.
BRENDA
Story has it that Washington sent smallpox-infected blankets to an Indian village. Another story- this one verified- is that the government paid hunters to wipe out the bison, knowing that was the basis of the Plains Indian economy.
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Quote:
....SIGNYM
Yanno, the funny thing was, I read exactly the same passage you did before I posted, and I'm pretty sure that I said nothing about the reasons WHY the emperor decided what he decided... or why later emperors decided the same thing for generations afterwards. So I'm not just throwing stuff out to see what sticks, because I didn't throw anything out at all.
These are quotes by you pulled from just your last few posts. There is an entire thread here that goes on for over 120 posts and there is a theme. All throughout you imply this country is an albatross around the world’s neck creating havoc where ever we tread. You are working so hard at it you cannot even remember the context you posted the Royal Fleet misinformation. To propose that they were better than us. That they could have but choose not to do what we chose to do.
Quote:
....SIGNYM
Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.
I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME. (I posted about that and provided a link earlier)
The civilizations that I mentioned were advanced and economically powerful for their day. The Harappan civilization and its cities covered a large part of the Indus valley, and traded far and wide, with Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Unlike many of the extant civilizations, the Harappans didn't field any armies or engage in conquests. Because of the intricate seals and standardized weight sets, it appears the Harappan civilization cities depended primarily on trade of surplus agricultural and artisan goods. The same could be said for Minoan civilization, which depended on trade, not conquest, for its wealth.
You offer up as Prof Societies that exited thousands of years before the time of Christ. When considered by the reader they are realized to have no relevance to the points you are trying to make. Today’s societies are intertwined in ways never comprehended by past cultures. Could they get on a plane and cause havoc on the other side of the world within hours. I don’t think so. Someone on the other side of the world may read this moments after I post it. What goes on in the world affects us tremendously. So yes we do get involved. We make many mistakes and as Brenda points out. We have shown ourselves to be as ruthless at times as any other culture was capable. But in no way exclusively. I could post many carefully selected incidents in history to make all current societies look terrible. Instead I chose to keep things in their proper context.
si shen
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