Serenity: Leaves on the Wind #3 Discussion (SPOILERS)

POSTED BY: Mutt999
UPDATED: Monday, December 20, 2021 00:14
VIEWED: 14252
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M52NICKERSON

Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
IN THE TWO MINUTES HE WAS ON THE SHIP???? Are you delusional??? Maybe if she knew he was coming, but not in that length of time... She had to think fast. And in what book is it written that generally nice people are not capable or do not commit violence? I can show you a whole buncha articles of young girls even younger than her picking up a gun and shooting intruders, beating people for lesser offences, and this is certainly no different.
Like I said, I still think she's messing with him... Anticipation of torture can be worse for some and we never see her touch him, do we?
Just wait for the next one before you go judging...
Still, I wouldn't blame her one bit if she did beat the shit out of him, either way... Here, I'll help. Hand me a clamp

Two minutes? Early was on the ship long enough after knocking Simon out, which Kaylee sees him doing, to lock Janye in his room, capture Mal and Brea and tie them up in the cargo hold. So it was longer than two minutes Kaylee had. Hell she should have had enough time to get to a com and warn Mal.

Some nice people can commit violent acts, but not all of them. What we have seen of Kaylee is that she is really not one of those people. In War Stories she was a mess when faced with people shooting at her. In Objects it took a lot of coaxings from River to get her to act, and then it was not to directly confront Early.

No one would blame Kaylee from beating the ever living hell out of Early, but that is not her character. That is the problem. Zack is making the mistake that a badass female character equals a strong female character. That is not so.

It is not even an the whoel issue with the idea of her hitting with the wrench. Part of it is the idea that someone with no appearent physical training can sneak up on someone as highly trained as Early. More so after we see Early acting damn near like a super hero taking people out left and right. This is how crappy writers try and make people seem more menacing only to have that fall apart when the seemignly unbeatable foe is taked out so simply. If Early get that sloppy he would have never gotten as far as he has.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:02 AM

The Dead or Alive script suggests Kaylee has a dark side - maybe not well developed or hidden, but it's there, just like it is with everyone. Don't overestimate how "innocent" Kaylee is, that's how people got tripped up thinking she was innocent about boys until the Out of Gas flashback, and Joss doesn't usually write one trick flat personality ponies. Maybe she got the jump on Jubal because he still remembered their previous run in and just dismissed her as not a threat.

And even if you don't buy that, this is Kaylee post-Miranda, post-shooting Reavers in a desperate last stand, post running around the ass end of the verse for about nine months. And Jubal Early threatened to rape her once before. If you thought any Whedon was going to have a female character just break down sobbing and accept Jubal's dominance over them after that (again), well... That's not the Whedon way.

M52NICKERSON

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:37 AM

Kaylee's openess regarding sex does not speak to her ability to sneak up on a highly trained bounty hunter.

Kaylee's actions in the BDM never seem to fit well with her character from the show to me. I think you can give that somewhat of a pass because one she had the rest of the crew right there with her and shooting Reavers is not the same as hurting a person. Reavers are basicly monsters, and ones that hardly shoot back.

In a different situation, such as during a fight, I can see Kaylee hitting someone with a big ass wrench. I can even see her trying to sneak up on Early and try it if she had no other choices. Saying that Early just dismissed her does not realy help because it make Early look foolish, and a lot less scary or badass. Something that a man capable of doing the things he has in the comic to this point would not be.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:24 AM

Sounds to me your problem isn't really about Kaylee's characterization, more Jubal's. But in Objects in Space, wasn't Jubal's downfall there that he was trying to be all that and more, this scary unpredictable guy in body armor the color of blood, that he had cased them all and knew all their limitations and they couldn't beat him?

But really he was just another mercenary psycho with nasty childhood tendencies who liked intimidating people into giving him power over them and thought too much of himself. And being a psychopath doesn't make him unstoppable or invincible. It doesn't make him prescient. He's a bounty hunter, what training he has consists of the life he's had - and one time a little man who loved fire got the best of him. So can River. So can Kaylee.

M52NICKERSON

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Sounds to me your problem isn't really about Kaylee's characterization, more Jubal's. But in Objects in Space, wasn't Jubal's downfall there that he was trying to be all that and more, this scary unpredictable guy in body armor the color of blood, that he had cased them all and knew all their limitations and they couldn't beat him?

But really he was just another mercenary psycho with nasty childhood tendencies who liked intimidating people into giving him power over them and thought too much of himself. And being a psychopath doesn't make him unstoppable or invincible. It doesn't make him prescient. He's a bounty hunter, what training he has consists of the life he's had - and one time a little man who loved fire got the best of him. So can River. So can Kaylee.

My problem is with the whole scene. I don't think Kaylee given the situation present would choose to sneak up and hit Early. She is smarter than that. Hitting someone with something heavy when you as a little time to plan is Jayne's top line idea, but Kaylee's. In Heart of Gold Kaylee and Wash come up with a plan, very quickly, to neutralise the three men on the ship. Granted it did not work out perfect, but it was better then them trying to shoot it out with the three.

I agree that being a psychopath doesn't make Early unstoppable or invincible, but up until now that is the way he has been portrayed in the comic. Beating up a group of Fed, who were armed and knew he was there. Killing every person on Brea's ship. He had been this seemingly unstoppable force, well until Kaylee got the drop on him.

Early's overall actions are stupid to begin with. There are a ton of ways he could have gone about things once he was on Serenity. Hell he could have snuck into the engine room and disabled the ship and than waved the Feds. He could have not destroyed Brea's ship and let her and Jayne go meaning even less people to deal with on Serenity.

Zach seems to be jumping up to some "fangasm" finally instead of putting the work in and creating a solid story. He is just giving fans things they want, more Early, more Operative...hell I will be surprised if Saffron does not come into play at some point. Not to mention that we look to be headed to having a small army of Rivers. Gee, a group of young girls who are able to kick a large amount of ass, never seen that before.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 2:51 AM

Quote:
I don't think Kaylee given the situation present would choose to sneak up and hit Early.

So instead of knocking out a threat straight away, you think Kaylee should have used the window of time she had to come up with a complicated zany scheme with mechanical engineering components. This instead of doing something that would probably be more immediate and reactive and instinctive for her.

And you think we should have spent a lot more time with the crew getting taken out one by one again by a minor one time villain that they'd dealt with before, instead of nipping the problem in the bud right away and giving the character who had been most affected by that same antagonist some closure.

Quote:
Not to mention that we look to be headed to having a small army of Rivers. Gee, a group of young girls who are able to kick a large amount of ass, never seen that before.

You really thought there weren't going to be others?

M52NICKERSON

Wednesday, April 2, 2014 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So instead of knocking out a threat straight away, you think Kaylee should have used the window of time she had to come up with a complicated zany scheme with mechanical engineering components. This instead of doing something that would probably be more immediate and reactive and instinctive for her.

And you think we should have spent a lot more time with the crew getting taken out one by one again by a minor one time villain that they'd dealt with before, instead of nipping the problem in the bud right away and giving the character who had been most affected by that same antagonist some closure.

Well she did not knock him out straight away. She saw him attacking Simon in the infirmary. Early than makes his way up to the shuttle to deal with Mal, locks Inara and Jayne in the crew quarters and deals with Brea in the lounge. So Kaylee had time to come up with something more than hitting him with a wrench.

Even worse is the fact that while Early is talking to himself trying to remember who else was left Kaylee say "the mechanic" from behind him instead of just hitting him. She warnes the elite bounty hunter, who has taken out almost two full ships of people, and still is able to get the best of him.

Quote:
You really thought there weren't going to be others?

If there still are it make the Alliance really, really fucking stupid. Looking at all the trouble one River caused and no one thought it might not be safe to keep the rest around. It's not like there is soem vaste need for them. The Alliance already has control of the verse. That is not a hard risk–benefit analysis to do.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:24 AM

A bounty hunter, who, as I said, is still not prescient, and despite announcing her presence, she took him by surprise. I don't actually see a problem here.

As for the Alliance... Have they ever really given the impression they were all that smart? They pretty much brute force or assassinate to get their way.

Not to mention it's practically human nature to build a shiny new toy no matter how much risk there is. I've been watching an unrelated crowd source thing recently, it's been illuminating. It is amazing what humans can accomplish working together... And even more impressive the sheer stupidity that can happen when enough people get a bad idea that they like in mind.

There was also apparently an entire Academy of potential River-like candidates. River was either their prototype or their best effort at the time if I remember correctly, but there's really no reason why there wouldn't have been more in development prior to the incident that required Parliament intervention. And the people working on the project would probably be so proud as to think they learned from that and can prevent those leaks from happening again. (or use it to their advantage)

There is an expectation that literary villains have to be more impressive than most humans can be in order to be effectively threatening. The problem with that is, it's just as possible to mary sue a villain as it is a hero. Both villains and heroes need to make mistakes and be surprised in a story to keep it interesting. Zack's writing is perhaps a bit over-the-top (this IS a comic book medium we're talking about) but he's basically having to keep both sides of that coin in balance with each other. It's an ambitious endeavor because all these characters are by themselves potent show stealing archetypes, and at some point something has to give. If Jubal is to be defeated again - and he would have to be if this story is going where I think it is - then one of the hero characters has to beat him. Which character does that and how depends entirely on what has the most emotional impact and what fits thematically with the rest of the plot. Hence, Kaylee, who had a history with Jubal to resolve, and hence the ease of her doing so, with a wrench because she's a mechanic.

Jubal's being taken out so soon means that the real danger has to show itself. I'm actually glad. I was concerned about Jubal's ability to carry six issues as the primary antagonist, and his character had already been done before. This is a good twist.

THG

Monday, December 20, 2021 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
Kaylee has a lot of stones and is very smart. She played a major part in planning the heist of the laser gun. She is well aware Serenity operates outside the law and the risk of that.

Miker
Kaylee goes ninja on a killer robot in Serenity Better Days #1, March 2008

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly]

T

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