The Desolation of SUCK.

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:49
VIEWED: 7658
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STORYMARK

Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I don't know who he's making this movie for, if not for the avid Tolkien fan.

The millions and millions who liked the LOTRs films, and seem to be enjoying the prequels, too. Your friend really couldn't follow along?

Really?

I pity them (but then, look who they're friends with...). I took a 10 year old who'd never read any Tolkein, and followed just fine.

Its daft to think they'd spend that much on just "avid Tolkein fans".

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

Who you talking to? Funny that you start your post this way, then kick back with all the detail. What is a review thread for, if not to take a movie seriously?

Maybe you mean he's taking it personally to a silly degree, which it agree with. As I agree with the rest of your post.

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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

And your point is... ? Thing is, the reason I'm taking it as such is because The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy weren't meant to be all one gigantic saga, told in epic fashion. The quaintness of The Hobbit is suppose to be a precursor, a hint of greater things, both in the past and yet to come. I think that could have been pulled off immensely well in movie form, but PJ decided to go another way. I wish he hadn't, is all.

Quote:

He actually does go and confront the necromancer in the Silmarillion before the White Council is ever organized. In the Silmarillion the Necromancer withdraws that time, but Gandalf is left with the distinct impression that it actually was Sauron and not a Nazghul. Which is why he does suggest the council be formed, and Saruman is made the leader of the council. This has already happened by the time of The Hobbit, which is why we have that scene with Galadriel in the first movie.

I don't recall it that way. His later trip to Gondor, consulting of the scrolls and dusty, dry parchment ( right near his open candle flame, no less - ha ha ) WAS suppose to be the tippoing point for Gandalf. If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ? OK - this is getting off the movie a bit, in wading hip deep into TOLKIEN fanboy stuff, I know )

Quote:

Then, to get the key to Erebor, Gandalf goes AGAIN to Dol Guldur and determines it really is Sauron. Technically this should have happened BEFORE the story of The Hobbit even STARTED, but all Peter Jackson did is make it implicit, and with Gandalf inexplicably leaving in the middle of The Hobbit, it's not unbelievable that Gandalf would then go to Dol Guldur again by himself and try to confront Sauron again and Sauron might have gained enough power to reveal himself. Or that after The Hobbit is over, Gandalf would go to Gondor not to determine if it is Sauron, because he already knows that even in the books, but rather to determine a way to defeat Sauron.

Don't recall exactly how the Key comes into the story, but how / why would it end up @ Dol Guldur, and why would Gandalf think to go THERE to find it ? I wish there was more on the map and the key than was mentioned in the movie. Seems I need to brush up on some details.

Quote:

Basically, my thoughts in regards to the Dol Guldur subplot amounted to "eh, close enough."

The meeting of Radagast at the tomb of the 9 ... not fully a bad thing. There were clearly goings on between the wizards ( Istari ) that were well outside the story of Bilbo's travels proper, but I feel being so specific that the 9 were " missing " seems less shocking that they'd ride again, as we find out in Fellowship. It SHOULD be, as I recall, a real " Oh SHIT! " moment, but if Gandalf already KNEW they were out of their tombs, 60 some years prior, it shouldn't have been much of a surprise at all.

Quote:

And I liked the she-elf Tauriel because she added to the story. The Legolas cameo went on a little too long, but Tauriel helped add some dimension to the dwarf characters, which is a good thing.

This is a lesser problem for me. Sure, there's nothing in the story of Bilbo which supports her character, but there wasn't anything saying she couldn't have been there either. The whole friendship interest between Elf and Dwarf, easy to let it slide, but in a story where there is SOOO much embellishment already, it seems even more contrived. Though, I do admit, they do kinda pull it off, so far. It's well written.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill gu

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.
And your point is... ?

Quote:

He actually does go and confront the necromancer in the Silmarillion before the White Council is ever organized. In the Silmarillion the Necromancer withdraws that time, but Gandalf is left with the distinct impression that it actually was Sauron and not a Nazghul. Which is why he does suggest the council be formed, and Saruman is made the leader of the council. This has already happened by the time of The Hobbit, which is why we have that scene with Galadriel in the first movie.

I don't recall it that way. His later trip to Gondor, consulting of the scrolls and dusty, dry parchment ( right near his open candle flame, no less - ha ha ) WAS suppose to be the tippoing point for Gandalf. If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ? OK - this is getting off the movie a bit, in wading hip deep into TOLKIEN fanboy stuff, I know )

The trip to gondor was to convince himself that bilbos ring was the one ring,it wasn't about sauron. I'm pretty sure gandalf did leave the hobbit gang to do some dol guldor business. But damn if it hasn't been so long that I can't recall the details. Shame! I'm going to read the white council meeting chapter of fellowship again.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

AURAPTOR

Monday, December 30, 2013 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

The trip to gondor was to convince himself that bilbos ring was the one ring,it wasn't about sauron. I'm pretty sure gandalf did leave the hobbit gang to do some dol guldor business. But damn if it hasn't been so long that I can't recall the details. Shame! I'm going to read the white council meeting chapter of fellowship again.

True. He was reading up on the known history of the one ring. But the movie is playing up the ties between Sauron, his servants far too early in the whole timeline, imo. If Gandalf truly suspected Sauron was back in business, at the time of Dol Guldur, and it wasn't just some random Necromancer, then he absolutely had grown too fond of the Halfling's leaf.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Monday, December 30, 2013 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

Who you talking to? Funny that you start your post this way, then kick back with all the detail. What is a review thread for, if not to take a movie seriously?

Maybe you mean he's taking it personally to a silly degree, which it agree with. As I agree with the rest of your post.

I had to look all that up on wikipedia. Fuck if I've read the silmarillion.

I was following precedence while acknowledging the extraordinary amounts of purist fanwonk of this argument. The movie really isn't bad, and as far as I can tell based on approximately five minutes worth of research they're actually pretty faithful to the books and supplemental material considering what we often see Hollywood do to book adaptions. But as with anything with a dedicated fanbase, there's are some unpleasable people who want to find anything and everything wrong with the movies.

Jackson was throwing the fans a bone with the Necromancer thing because it's some very obscure lore in the storyverse, and the answer is complaints that the timeline is all wrong. At least he included it and explained to the audience where Gandalf MIGHT have gone which the book doesn't really.

BYTEMITE

Monday, December 30, 2013 4:35 AM

Quote:
True. He was reading up on the known history of the one ring. But the movie is playing up the ties between Sauron, his servants far too early in the whole timeline, imo. If Gandalf truly suspected Sauron was back in business, at the time of Dol Guldur, and it wasn't just some random Necromancer, then he absolutely had grown too fond of the Halfling's leaf.

If anything it's playing it up too late in the timeline, not too early. The quest in the Hobbit is to go reclaim Erebor, and when Gandalf goes to get the key to Erebor in Dol Guldur he finds out that the Necromancer is Sauron.

Getting the key had to come well before he even met with Thorin Oakenshield and started the whole quest.

Essentially Jackson invented an extra time that Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur for the movie to confront Sauron. But I think it'll work out in terms of the important business Gandalf leaves on in the book and then his reappearance along with the sudden showing of orcs and wargs.

Quote:
If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ?

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar and elven leaders to believe him yet, and they all figured The One Ring was lost anyway. Saruman was appointed leader of the White Council, so it makes sense Gandalf would go to him. And then Saruman had his own reasons for dismissing Gandalf's concerns.

Imagine if you will that Gandalf is the magical grey-bearded Fox Mulder of the Middle Earth realm.

STORYMARK

Monday, December 30, 2013 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar and elven leaders to believe him yet, and they all figured The One Ring was lost anyway. Saruman was appointed leader of the White Council, so it makes sense Gandalf would go to him. And then Saruman had his own reasons for dismissing Gandalf's concerns.

Imagine if you will that Gandalf is the magical grey-bearded Fox Mulder of the Middle Earth realm.

And very likely, after the Battle of 5 Armies, which will be a big part of the next film (mentioned, but not shown in the book), the Necromancer will be beaten soundly enough (or seemingly so) that Any support Gandalf has will evaporate, convinced the threat has passed.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar ...

Istari!

ROFLMAO.

Hey, I know I'm trashing this movie, but it's not Ishtar bad!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 2:30 AM

Heh. I don't really know how to spell all this stuff.

Also I keep wanting to write "Jackson" as "Tolkien" which is pretty good indication I probably ought to leave the arguing to the "purists" I was tweaking earlier.

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