holy Breaking Bad jeebus OMG!! (possible s5 spoilers, but not in the OP)
POSTED BY: MAL4PREZ
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 01:55
VIEWED: 8949
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Hey Frem, let me add thanks for not taking that thing I said about you "projecting" personally. Looking at my post now I see that sounded pretty snide. I don't mean it that way - everyone projects, and I certainly am. I identify with Jesse, which is ironic because at first he reminded of junkies in my own life and I had no patience for his shit. But somehow I've totally clicked with him. I hadn't realized much until I watched that last episode. I hardly slept last night because it so freaked me out! Something about this pushed my buttons for sure!
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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.
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Which parts? I see the rage, but see it coming largely from him not getting his way. He sees the way things ought to go, and when people don't just shut up and do as he says, the rage comes out. Big time ego!
Of course there is still the Walter White buried inside the Heisenberg, so sometimes that voice wins. It never wins when his pride is injured. Look how he mouths off at Hank at very bad times, in ways that keep Hank on the trail.
Well, it's true he's prideful, arrogant even, but the smouldering core of that hatred is resentment - he's deeply, seriously *PISSED* about never "getting his due" and watching folk that mistreat or dismiss him succeed while crapping on him - mind you that's his perception of it which might not always be accurate cause when emotion clouds judgement, welll...
So I think we're seeing the same thing, just naming it in different words and tones from our own experiences with the world, is all.
And aye verily, his drunken mouthing off to Hank was a serious facepalm moment, one good reason why folks with serious *issues* should avoid the bottle, which is a terribly hypocritical thing for me to say I know, but tis true nonetheless.
I haven't seen anyone giving Gus a free pass, but then I just got into the show this summer and I haven't done much online chatting about it.
Certainly, I find Gus totally creepy! No free pass from me.
Well I've seen many viewers believing that same line of shit Mike was going on about, that if he'd just played nice - which is stupid, the "offer" Gus makes Walter is too-good-to-be-true, the profit margins on his operation simply don't ALLOW for it because of the massive overheard of both maintaining the infrastructure and distribution network, and laundering the money through his legitimate business, so he's going to what, run his business at a loss ?
Nope.
He was planning to kill off Walter and steal his formula from day one, and counting on Walters major flaw being greed, when it's actually pride - but his interactions with Gus are where I was pointing out it was more anger/resentment than ego, because of the way they go at each other and how Walter winds up playing it a lot smarter then one would expect, it's not something I can easily put into words, but that rage tends to trump his pride when the two come into conflict.
Controlling one vice with another is something I am a wee bit familiar with, one can say.
In regards to Jesse, it's *ALL* of that, despite it being contradictory and making no sense, cause Walter isn't exactly in a sane place at the moment, part of him is hateful of Jesses "betrayal", part of him might still care a little in a twisted way, and hell yes he's going to shift the blame to Jesse in his own mind - the reaction I was expecting over Hank was Walter to just close his eyes and turn away...
I have far more experience than I ever wanted in dealing with seriously messed up people, and while the writers do overall a good job, there's a rare few places where they fumble it a little, maybe by accident, or cause the story needs to go in a certain direction.
Another case of that was Mike abandoning his daughter at the playground, it was so out of character the actor even balked a little over it.
And no, I didn't take the projection comment personal, everyone sees the world through their own lens, and Breaking Bad is us seeing this all through Walters lens, which is maybe a little closer to mine than most - but because of that each of us can perceive an event or chain of them differently than each other, constrasting it with our own experiences.
Worth a mention is that BECAUSE this is all viewed from Walters perspective, what WE, the viewer, are seeing, might not exactly be an accurate representation of events, also.
Ironically I most identify with Mike, cause my current actual employment is more the legit version of what he does - being the private security force of a realtor can h
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Quote:
Also, yeah I know they took a bit of artistic license with Mercury Fulminate, which is what is in the primers of ammunition, it's the bit that goes bang when the hammer or firing pin strikes it and sets off the gunpowder - I think it's also the main component of those impact-detonated fireworks sometimes known as snap-n-pops, pretty sure anyways, but it was still funny.
Now if you'd wrapped a bit of Cyclonite (aka RDX) around that crystal, one might have blown the ENTIRE top of that building off - which is one thing not addressed (or in a terrifying thought, not YET addressed) in the series, that if he can cook Meth, there's *other* things Walter could make which are even or much WORSE....Select to view spoiler:
They did address the chem weapon aspect slightly early on in the show when he takes out Emilio and Krazy-8 with phosphine gas
Cause I know a lil bit about the kind of chemistry that goes boom, see, and a guy of Walters skill could crank out some pretty serious kaboom if he wanted to.
-Frem
It's silver fulminate used in those poppers. When confronted on the show about the mercury fulminate not working, Gilligan justified it by saying Walt mixed in some silver fulminate, and just didnt mention it.
MYTHBUSTERS SPOILERS:
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The failure in the experiment wasn't really the explosive nature of the mercury, just the details. For one, 5 grams (what he used on the show) wasn't enough to blow out the windows, but would have actually killed Walt at that range. It also can't be crystallized like it was on the show, and couldn't be detonated by impact.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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OK, yeah Frem. I think we are seeing Walt the same way but put different words on it at first.
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And aye verily, his drunken mouthing off to Hank was a serious facepalm moment, one good reason why folks with serious *issues* should avoid the bottle, which is a terribly hypocritical thing for me to say I know, but tis true nonetheless.
I've come far enough to limit my "bottom of the bottle" mistakes to anonymous online posting LOL!
Yeah, it's a line of shit about Gus for sure. Another one that pisses me off, seeing as I am solidly on Team Jesse, is the claim that Jesse deserves what Walt did because after all he shot Gail. Whatever! Walt very carefully manipulated him into that. There seems to be a large group out there who just have to love Walt, and find excuses for him. They seem to be missing the point of the show.
Controlling one vice with another is something I am a wee bit familiar with, one can say.
For example: this episode was close to sending me into a depression relapse (really, why do I take these things so seriously? Ack!) like I couldn't sleep and just wanted to cry all day Tuesday after I watched it Monday night. But last night my favorite game lit up in warfare that's going crazy now. Weeeee! My mood has improved. :)
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And no, I didn't take the projection comment personal, everyone sees the world through their own lens, and Breaking Bad is us seeing this all through Walters lens, which is maybe a little closer to mine than most - but because of that each of us can perceive an event or chain of them differently than each other, constrasting it with our own experiences.
You know, that is one thing that makes this show more than just TV. We look through Walt's eyes and understand him and empathize with him. Are we still able to be unbiased in judging him? Given the Cult of Walt, a lot of people clearly are not able. They'll do anything to keep the main character the hero, because dammit the main character should be a hero!
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I wonder what horrible things Walt will have to do in the last two episodes to make even his most ardent fans turn against him. I have a feeling that this is the challenge the writers have set for themselves.
Which makes me sad for Jesse.
Yes, I am aware of the irony. I have somehow managed to watch this whole show through Jesse's eyes, and I am at the place that if Jesse escaped and killed Skylar and then in the most heartless way killed Walt, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. (I would be bothered if he went after Flynn and Holly.)
Quote:Makes perfect sense to me. :)
Ironically I most identify with Mike,
The video didn't work. Will try again...
Re the chemical weapons, I don't think that's Walt's style. With the drugs he can hide from the harm he does. He can say that those meth-heads are just losers so it's not really his fault. They'd do it anyway, right? With weapons it would be different.
One theme I wonder will come back:
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when Jesse got sober he talked about acceptance, and kicked back with that line: "I'm the bad guy." I wonder if Walt's moment will be the realization that HE is the bad guy, that Hank's death and the airplane crash and the death of children and the destruction of the White family and the betrayal by Jesse and all the rest of it are completely on Walt, no one else...
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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.
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Welll....
That's the thing about fandoms, sometimes they're fan-DUMB - seriously, there's *NO* deed too heinous to keep at least some small portion of the fandom from adulating Walt because to them he's a dark wish-fulfillment fantasy, a big-badfic that in the darkest part of their hearts they almost wish for, because the rot of hate, intolerance and resentment has seeped that deeply into our society.
Lemme give you an example - when you see the big fatcats who crashed our economy and broke every law, sacred trust, and moral line in the process, skipping away laughing while the folks they screwed starve and struggle, and get BLAMED for it, some part of you deep inside that you don't like very much bares its fangs and starts to growl, you know ?
Prettymuch everybody has those feelings, ain't nothin wrong with it, hell, ain't all that much wrong with even acting on it, it's the HOW which matters, sure...
But deep within their heart everybody who's ever been mistreated (which is prettymuch everybody) has just that wee little kernel of something really, really ANGRY about it within them.
And because this is fiction, because this is fantasy, they can let it out to play a little bit and appease it in a harmless fashion, which is what such is, kind of like a boilers release valve, only in the most rare of situations would doing so actually encourage that kind of behavior, and those people were seriously messed up in the first place to the point where anything else coulda set em off just as easy - so folks liking Walter no matter how vile he is doesn't bother me so.
Hell, one of the things I do when I get totally stressed by how stupid and malicious people can be is to fire up Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas go downtown and just RAMPAGE - doesn't mean nothing, see ?
Besides, why's it matter so much if someone else likes/hates a fictional character so much ?
Or even completely mistrues the moral message of a story, which happens more often.
Reason I go into that is that there's a manga called Death Note where the AUTHOR started getting really pissed off at folks "liking" the guy supposed to be the villain, and then started not only "pushing" that character harder in a direction he was admittedly going anyway, but doing it in such a fashion that suspension of disbelief started to crumble, and then topping that by breaking the internal rules of the story and throwing in a Mary-Sue'ish character with near magical powers (such as deductions with NO logic chain behind them, again violating the storys integrity and internal rules) which in the end came off pretty badly and caused a lot of readers to "like" the villain even MORE out of spite, so there's a lesson in that for writers.
I think some of the out-of-character moments might be an attempt on behalf of the writers to render Walt any kind of likeable at all, to hold the idea of redemption juuuust out of reach and troll the audience a little, at least that seemed the intention, but it doesn't come through as credible to me cause Walter White as he was prettymuch became toast the moment he decided not to play the game anymore - major events like that in ones life, for good or ill, always result in transformation of character and personality, he's NOT that person any more and never will be.
Which is funny cause I am re-reading Matt Stovers Caine's Law right now and Caine points out yeah, he's not "that person any more", but no one ever thought to ask...
"What if the person he is now... is WORSE?!"
Oh, and this...
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I don't think that's Walt's style. With the drugs he can hide from the harm he does. He can say that those meth-heads are just losers so it's not really his fault. They'd do it anyway, right? With weapons it would be different.
We ARE talkin about a guy who at some point in here near the end, bought himself an M60 Machinegun, I don't think denial is on hi
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Quote:Part of the audience attaches wrong explanations to TV shows, explanations that the show's writers know are ludicrous. As in TV, the same happens in reality, but there is no designated head writer to authoritatively clue the audience, and actors, about what reality means.
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
. . . Besides, why's it matter so much if someone else likes/hates a fictional character so much ?
Or even completely misconstrues the moral message of a story, which happens more often. . . . -Frem
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In Front of Their Noses (September 16, 2013, 8:33 am)
Antonio Fatas, like me, is boggled by the OECD’s apparent inability even to contemplate the possibility that Europe’s poor economic performance is the result of fiscal austerity.
At one level, of course, it’s perfectly understandable. The OECD in general, and Pier Carlo Padoan, in particular, as chief economist, were among the biggest and earliest cheerleaders for austerity; you can see why they don’t want to admit that they were in fact cheerleading Europe into disaster.
Still, it’s kind of depressing. What we’ve just had in the eurozone is as close to a natural experiment on fiscal policy as you’re ever likely to see, and the results overwhelmingly support a Keynesian view. You might expect some acknowledgment, some revision of views.
But that’s not the way the world works. George Orwell knew all about it:
"The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield … To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle."
And not many influential people are into that kind of struggle … http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/in-front-of-their-noses/
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Fair enough, Frem. I don't think "in the series" Walt would take that option you're talking about, but who he's gotten to be in the most recent episodes certainly might. I could see it. But I don't think it'll go that way.
I understand your argument about people enjoying the fantasy of being bad and rebelling against the system. I think this show goes beyond that though. I enjoy the post-apocalyptic fantasy as much as any schmoe, maybe even more, but it crosses the line when I find my fantasy self hurting people I care about. The whole point is: when does your rebel fantasy make you part of the evil you fight? Walt has gone there but he's too f'ed up to know it.
Frem, when does your hatred of The Man make you a servant of The Man? I don't mean to suggest that you are, I mean to suggest that that is what has happened on this show, and that's what Walt fans have become.
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People on other forums I've visited argue that Jesse deserves it all because he committed the cardinal sin of ratting out to the cops. Also, they say, he deserves to suffer an awful fate because he killed sweet old Gale. I have a problem with this because the only option he had besides killing Gale was turning rat, and Walt put him in that situation. There was no solution for Jesse that the Walt cult would accept, and that's because they are indeed the Cult of Walt.
To me, the Walt effect is not about people wanting to buck the system. People who allow themselves to support Walt no matter what are *exactly* the people talk themselves into supporting the shitty evil banking system while thinking they don't. They aren't bucking a damn thing, they're just giving into their egos. They are easily manipulated because they have no true moral compass.
So, this is maybe giving too much moral weight to a TV show, but the hell is the internet for if not that? ;)
Tonight I let myself watch last week's episode again. Have new thoughts but they are still percolating.
Trying to decide if I should watch Sunday night of wait until I have both episodes to finish it all at once. I can't have the next one kill me the way the last one did!
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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.
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Frem, when does your hatred of The Man make you a servant of The Man? I don't mean to suggest that you are, I mean to suggest that that is what has happened on this show, and that's what Walt fans have become.
I get ya, hell that question has been around prolly as long as humans have, consider how every revolution which topples a regime eventually declines into prettymuch the same thing, then cast down in its time, lather, rinse, repeat.
That's why I liken Government to a machinegun sitting in the middle of a table, with Politics being the arguement over who gets to point it at who - the power of The One Ring, as it were, creates nothing, solves nothing, and the end result is always destruction, cooperation has to come from people, them wanting to, not cause one scares and threatens them.
Force and Fear are tactics of "The Man", and using them makes one no better, cause that warps everything, every 'accomplishment' which springs from that seed is poisoned from the get-go
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“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”
Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.
But always there's the siren song, the lure of power-over-others, and you know what ?
It's a lie.
As I've mentioned before, violence of any kind damages those who use it.
Loki (The Avengers) did kind of have a point when he mentioned folks diminishing their lives in a mad scramble for power, they do, be it religious/spiritual, economic, or what have you, if one wants power to control the will of others, the very act of taking and using it destroys them too.
But the rarely asked question is what about folks who don't WANT it ?
Hell in all truth I have no authority but what folks give me, and they tend to hand off a lot of it cause they think doing so serves THEIR interests, which is essentially how it all works, cause when folks no longer believe you are serving their interests, they stop listening to you, stop following your orders, even attack you - that can be staved off with Force and Fear, but not inevitably so, cause eventually you'll reach a point where ENOUGH people hate you... well, you know where that goes.
Works the same way in Crime as Government (IMHO cause they're much the same thing, lol) or in any other human interaction cause the NATURE of power is exactly that, folks willing to listen to you and do what you tell/ask them - tis when manipulation and threat comes into the picture that things go all to hell.
Okay that's maybe a little convoluted and not sure if the point gets across, but anyways.
I think you might very, VERY much like Matthew Stovers Acts of Caine books, cause they address a whole bunch of the moral and ethical issues like this, and pull ZERO punches about them and the natural consequences thereof.
Another thing I was thinkin about, is how Walter and those like him are a branch, not a root, merely a symptom, not the disease.
Think on this, without the malicious, exploitive and downright rapacious for-profit "healthcare" system we have, and with the asinine practice of prohibition-via-Force aka "The War on (some) Drugs" - people like Walter never come to *BE*, because the conditions which allow shit like that to grow and fester don't exist.
I mean hell, it was Prohibition in the first place which created the crime and corruption, and the supposed need for Force which lead to the FBI/ATF and so on and so forth, which in the end have become a greater danger to us and all we care about than the goddamn moonshiners ever were, yes ?
This is why I do not care for Hank - "just following orders" is no goddamn excuse.
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I'm with you on a few things Frem:
This whole (fictional but with ties to reality) BB situation is a result of the completely stupid and misguided drug war.
I've long thought that there ought to be a rule: if some large percent of the population breaks a law, it should no longer be a law. The Mass Pike has a speed limit of 55, but on any given day if you're going less than 70 you are causing a problem. I've found myself sitting in the left lane going 75 when I notice a cop behind me. Guy isn't looking to give me a ticket, he just wants me to move the hell over so he can pass.
And yet they'll use that 55 limit to hand out tickets when they need the income. Clearly, 55 isn't necessary for safety because traffic NEVER goes that slow. So change the f'n law already!
Ditto for drugs. If the last two presidents openly admitted to trying pot (and more, I think) and yet went on to become PoTUS, why the hell does any young person go to jail for doing the same?
But back to the TV show. It's not the larger issues of society's ills that damn Walt. He's not just fighting a good fight against societal restraints. He is all self-interested ego, which makes him evil in my book. You can draw parallels with fights that are good to fight, and you can point to moments when he had real feeling, but none of that excuses the harm he's done. I don't forgive him. I only hope he reaches that conclusion that Jesse did a few seasons back: He is the Bad Man. The consequences of his actions are all on him.
But what I really want to get to with this post are my predictions.
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First, all my predictions are going to be wrong because this damned show always surprises me.
However, this won't stop me from trying. :)
Second: it seems the going thing to think that future Walt got his big gun and his ricine so he could go back and save Jesse and then - perhaps - use the ricin on himself. I think the latter idea is just stupid, (man's got cancer! Still coughing and taking pills in the future, why does he need ricin for himself?) but there's a logic to the first. Uncle Jack is armed and Walt definitely hates the man for taking his money and killing Hank. Sure enough Walt needs a big gun to set all that to rights.
But it's too obvious at this point. It's too much like what the writers WANT us to think. So I'm wondering if Walt is getting the gun to fight Jesse. Maybe the silly emo meth-head boy has been turned Bad, really Bad by all the ass-kickings he's taken. Maybe he's the one who trashed Walt's house and spray-painted Heisenberg on the living room wall, this after he escaped the nazis and did serious threatening of Walt's family. (I would guess killing of Walt's fam, but Walt is too relaxed in the future for that to be the case.)
Like Gus the monster was created when his partner (lover?) was killed by the Mexican cartels, I can see Jesse becoming the new monster. I can see him killing Walt and taking over as the new Big Bad, all his humanity destroyed.
That's my guess after watching Ep 5-14 a second time.
OK, and another option is that Jesse really is completely broken and Walt will witness that and react in one way or another. I hope not. Have to say, I hope Jesse turns badass and gets his revenge no matter the consequences. Which puts me on par with those who cheer Walt turning bad.
Kudos to the writers, for getting me to this point! They have officially messed with my head. :)
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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.
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Quote:
I've long thought that there ought to be a rule: if some large percent of the population breaks a law, it should no longer be a law.
That's what broke Prohibition more less, so the powers that be decided to start just flat out ignoring the Constitution and its requirements, well, more than they were already.
I had to mention to someone that "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" isn't the pancea they think it is, because that leads right into the problem of attempted prohibition-via-taxation like they did with tobacco, not only did they lie about where the money was gonna go (hint: It hasn't, check for yourself) they kept going back to that well and jacking the tax by playing on the shocking gullibility of chronic do-gooders and moral-majority types, who always seem willing to help pave the road to hell.
End Result: Around here at least, there's a massive secondary market smuggling tobacco and prescription drugs (conventional, not narcotics) and because there's no MONEY in attacking it cause Asset Forfeiture doesn't (yet) apply, much of that tax revenue dries up and ever increasing efforts to "enforce" it wind up COSTING money - which wouldn't have happened if the "legit" price could beat the underground one.
Case in point, the very tobacco I am smoking now is obtained from a smuggler buddy for $11.00/lb, and that's with his cut and everything, but that self-same bag bought over the counter here would be $50-$60, which tells you how rapacious the tax is, yes ?
I don't think any tax EXCEPT booze and smokes should exceed 50% of the total value of the product, and in the latter case no more than 70%, which is a fair enough deal...
So if they were say, to legalize Marijuana for example, and then slap a $50.00 tax on a "dime bag" (worth $10 max) not a goddamn thing will change... but pin the tax at five bucks and enforce quality standards, and the street aspect dries up and blows away for lack of need.
As for artificially low speed limits, well that's part of criminalizing everything so that there's ALWAYS an excuse to arrest anyone at any time, make everything a crime, all of us criminals, and the powers that be don't have to listen to us any more - and there's also, obviously, the money.
Ann Arbor has a serious problem with this, in that theirs are outright ILLEGAL, and have been since 2006 - this remains to be rectified.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/ann-arbor-needs-to-get-up-to-spee
d-on-its-speed-limits-along-main-roads/
http://www.annarbor.com/news/speed-limits-along-some-of-ann-arbors-mos
t-loathed-speed-traps-could-go-up/
That has SOOOooo many ill-effects, when Stadium Bridge and a couple others were falling down, chunks of concrete falling out of the bottom and hitting cars to where they had to block off the street under it, Congressman Dingell had to go to DC personally and all but beg for a TIGER grant, and one of the heaviest arguments against him was those speed limits not being changed - thankfully Dingbat is pretty badass and won them over - reconstruction started this May.
(Seriously, he's a dude, this bit is from last WEEK.)
Our local township went and tried to use poor road conditions as an excuse, then blocked and rejected efforts to repair the road (which they FAILED, as repairs have already started) and THEN in a fit of pique tried to have the road stripped down to one lane with bicycle lanes to keep that speed limit and the juicy ticket income, not to mention excuse to pull over minorities en masse and search their cars in hopes of finding an excuse to arrest them and steal the car via forfeiture - they've gotten a full measure of earfull from my proxies, as going in person always winds up with them accusing me of somehow "threatening/menacing" them... even from 20 feet away in a freakin wheelchair.
*eyeroll*
Funny bit to that is that some of the locals, when pulled over, have actually pulled INTO t
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