And circumcision
POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 00:27
VIEWED: 2816
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Because it came up.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/07/circumcision-rates-aver
ages-which-deceive/#.UflVj6y5JgE
A link that might not work, a request for thoughts, and a plea for NO PICTURES THANKS.
To AURaptor: if you want to talk about FGM, now's your chance.
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I approve.
There's rarely ever a medical necessity for circumcision on babies, and it just strikes me as fundamentally wrong to snip away at a tiny, helpless human being's genitals.
A German regional court declared it bodily harm in 2012 in a case where complications arose, prompting a ton of hoopla from religious groups (and some child=property minded parents) and oh-so-quickly there was a law making it legal for non-medical reasons. I am less than thrilled. I am biased against circumcision.
This strictly applies to boys. FGM is a whole other kettle of fish.
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I dislike both, so I agree with you there. But I'm not sure it's so different from FGM after all.
The history of circumcision is interesting. I've heard a theory that suggests that it was originally done on Jewish slaves in the Roman Empire. Because of how obsessed the Romans were with man-hood, that was an act of reducing the humanity of the slave, and they also believed it made them more infertile.
Somehow that practice became embraced as a religious and national symbol for the Jewish people, kind of a reminder of their history and trials, and later on, after the exact reason behind it was forgotten, they made up explanations about hygiene and stories about protection from lilith. Oh, and repressing all those bad feels, of course, through reduced sensory capacity.
And then in the 19th century, suddenly a bunch of victorian prudes decided that much of the mental health conditions of the day stemmed from certain habits that circumcision could cure - much as they thought hysteria in women was due to "tension" in the womb and excess frigidity and therefore could be alleviated by molesting the women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision
Not sure why other groups in Africa might've done it though, since it's not just Europe.
In some people there are complications when young, and it has to be done because circulation of blood has been reduced. But otherwise circumcision seems like a cruel and oppressive and barbaric practice, no matter when or where it's practiced or what gender experiences it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The history of circumcision is interesting. I've heard a theory that suggests that it was originally done on Jewish slaves in the Roman Empire. Because of how obsessed the Romans were with man-hood, that was an act of reducing the humanity of the slave, and they also believed it made them more infertile.
The wiki page on FGM has a similar theory, it being done to female slaves because it increased their value (more trustworthy, potentially less fertile) and it transformed into a "positive" cultural value.
Ouch.
I sort of get it as a rite of passage into adulthood. I still disapprove, but there are lots of weird recorded practices of mutilation or body alteration. Tattoos, scars, branding, knocking out front teeth(!) and such. Or footbinding, re-shaping the skull, elongated necks. In a more soft-core way, piercings. Altering the natural body is oddly popular in humanity, but I wonder why the line to mutilation is so often crossed.
What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.
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Quote:
What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.
Well, they're not now. And Christian dominated Europe wasn't either really. But the religious idea was often associated with the Jewish people, and got the most attention from European Christians. So Europe was the one to make a big deal out of it.
Some tribes in Africa have their own traditions that appear unrelated, but circumcision is most commonly associated with Europe and the Mediterranean and the Middle East - at least, by people of European descent, but also by much of the rest of the world that does not circumcize.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.
Well, they're not now. And Christian dominated Europe wasn't either really. But the religious idea was often associated with the Jewish people, and got the most attention from European Christians. So Europe was the one to make a big deal out of it.
Some tribes in Africa have their own traditions that appear unrelated, but circumcision is most commonly associated with Europe and the Mediterranean and the Middle East - at least, by people of European descent, but also by much of the rest of the world that does not circumcize.
But wouldn't not practicing it for the longest time, apart from a religious minority like the European jews, imply that it's really not a European thing? I'm totally confused, I never knew Europe was associated strongly with circumcision at all, Mediterranean or otherwise. I always associated it with the US (cultural), Judaism and Islam (religious).
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Quote:
imply that it's really not a European thing?
Most people don't automatically think of the Middle East or Africa first when they think of circumcision. And when people talk about the "Western world" and "western civilization" and the religions that established the social mores that lead to widespread practices in Europe and America, they think of Europe as an originator of that culture.
You just said that people in Germany complained about a ruling against circumcision, so they passed a law that allows for non-medical circumcision. It's a part of European culture and therefore western culture, even if it's not as common in Europe as in America, and even if it's more common in Muslims than either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Because it came up.
If this was incidental or deliberate, don't care - laughed so hard I hurt myself.
As for the topic - do not care one iota one way or the other. May as well argue about which is the one and true religion.
Oh let the sun beat down upon my face;
With stars to fill my dream;
I am a traveler of both time and space;
To be where I have been
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I thought there might be some innuendo, but I thought "eh, screw it."
The conversation is not so much about "religion" and more about abuse and changing acceptance or non-acceptance of abuse.
However, you do not have to have a position, because circumcision is not always seen as a thing to be concerned about by everyone.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
imply that it's really not a European thing?
Most people don't automatically think of the Middle East or Africa first when they think of circumcision. And when people talk about the "Western world" and "western civilization" and the religions that established the social mores that lead to widespread practices in Europe and America, they think of Europe as an originator of that culture.
You just said that people in Germany complained about a ruling against circumcision, so they passed a law that allows for non-medical circumcision. It's a part of European culture and therefore western culture, even if it's not as common in Europe as in America, and even if it's more common in Muslims than either.
The originator of the American cultural practice would pretty much be Victorian Britain. Continental Europe never caught on with that new trend in the 19th century and even today, circumcision rates in most European countries are below 20%, some at 10 or lower, which is counting the fast-growing religious minorities that do take it very seriously. The (former) colonies of Britain were more receptive and sport significantly higher rates, at least in the recent past.
The people in Germany who complained didn't do it because it's a widely accepted practice. The majority of citizens don't care or are against the law. The ones who complained were religious groups (Jewish and Muslim) and a minority of parents who reject general state interference.
Really, "Europe" is a very ill-advised term to use when talking about origins of circumcision. Some people may think this, but it's really inaccurate.
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