Zimmerman's Own Words

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Saturday, July 20, 2013 04:28
VIEWED: 7543
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M52NICKERSON

Thursday, July 11, 2013 6:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The whole IDEA is to make it broad. Just keep in mind that it's part of ALEC working in MANY states to create laws that will encourage people to buy guns. That's all the explanation you need to understand the "why" of the law.

The problem is less with the Stand Your Ground law than it is with the other laws in the state. Such as people claiming self defence not having to prove that.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

OONJERAH

Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:40 PM

Quote Niki's quote: "pulling out his Kel Tec 9mm pistol, which
was fully loaded with hollow-point bullets."

Pardon my attention deficit, but this is the first I've heard of Hollow-Points!

Hollow-points mean to me: You are hunting big game, you expect to
meet someone armed & dangerous, OR you intend to kill someone.

Trayvon Martin was minding his own business, had done nothing wrong,
no cause to invade his space. He was Innocent that night.

George Zimmerman just became twice as guilty in my eyes; he was
out for blood!

======================
A man's gotta know his own Mind.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 12, 2013 12:31 AM

Nah, hollowpoints are actually a rather common load, for two reasons.

1. Generally a pistol is carried for last ditch defense of your person, in hopes of never using it, but should you need to, it's absolutely imperative to do as much damage as possible as rapidly as possible, in order to fully stop even a determined foe - bullets ain't a hollywood magic wand, and a fatally wounded attacker can still take you with them unless you put enough damage into them to render them incapable of this.
(Caveat, despite being less-lethal, a Taser will subvert this by locking them up and dropping them instantly, but suffers from a few flaws such as lack of multiple shots and trickier operation/retention at close range which make them less preferred as carry weapons, though they do have their place)

2. Bullets don't magically stop when they hit a threat, standard ball rounds will often punch right through and keep right on going, becoming a danger to anyone in their path beyond that, and are far more prone to richochet upon striking a hard surface if the target is missed as well, so there is also that to consider.

When I carried that little colt mustang I used Keithpoints with a much lower charge behind them, because in the inner city at most likely ranges of 5-15 feet, and in areas of poorly built low rent housing and high population density, you really don't want to blast through a threat and the next three apartments, or wind up in a tight alley with your own lead bouncing back at you.

So... very good and natural reasons for loading hollowpoint ammunition, as is common with any CCW weapon - the prosecutor was playing it up to pander to a certain ignorance (no offense intended) and draw exactly that knee-jerk reaction, which is a shifty trick as far as I am concerned.

-Frem

OONJERAH

Friday, July 12, 2013 12:45 AM

Thanks, Frem. I'm very relieved.

If you are at close range and shoot me anywhere in the torso
with a hollow-point, what are my chances of survival?

I will try not to go crazy after the sentence tomorrow. :)

======================
A man's gotta know how to kill and walk.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, July 12, 2013 2:30 AM

The jury won't get the case until late afternoon Friday. But this court is "open" over the weekend so there's a slight chance of a verdict before Monday. I believe they'll need a few days to reach a verdict unless they cannot unanimously agree one way or another.

The prosecution case for second degree murder was very weak and they knew it. So did this judge. The new manslaughter option becomes a real possibilty now because the prosecution did a decent job today with their closing arguments. Tomorrow the defense will go full tilt with the self-defense argument, but it may not be enough to convince the jury to let Zimmerman walk free.

I wish the Orange County prosecutors had done as well as these Seminole County prosecutors have when they charged Casey Anthony with murder. That jury was never given the option of a lesser charge like third degree murder or manslaughter, and because of that, Casey Anthony, a clearly depraved murderer and despicable human being walked free. This week her equally despicable parents had a garage sale and sold off their dead granddaughter's belongings.

As to the Zimmerman thing....before today I would have predicted 90% likelihood of acquittal of the murder charge. Now I think it's more like 50-50 on the manslaughter. Also, maybe a 25% chance of a hung jury.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 12, 2013 4:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Thanks, Frem. I'm very relieved.

If you are at close range and shoot me anywhere in the torso
with a hollow-point, what are my chances of survival?

Actually quite high, relatively speaking - if you are not instantly killed outright, 78-80% on average... which is why the idea of warning shots or shooting them in a non-vital location (not easy to do ever, and impossible in the heat of battle) is patently ridiculous when engaging a threat with a pistol.

There was a case back in 2007 in Detroit where a 7yr old child by the name of Alexis Goggins threw herself in front of her mother as a human shield when an enraged ex-boyfriend emptied a firearm at her, shooting eight times, two of which hit the mother and the child took the remaining six.
Both of them survived.

As I say, firearms are not magic wands, like hollywood would have one believe, a for real close encounter between armed opponents is as nasty and messy a business as there ever was.

-F

SIGNYM

Friday, July 12, 2013 3:04 PM

Quote:
So once again we have our so called protectors deliberately causing chaos and carnage to justify their own existence, and the fifth estate helping them instead of shutting them down

Welcome to Egypt.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 12, 2013 3:12 PM

Quote:
Such an inanely broad, unfocused law. By that logic, someone with agoraphobia could kill a whole bunch of people at a mall or something, and claim they were scared.

That is the whole problem with stand your ground and imperfect defense. GZ started the whole confrontation, and TM could himself easily play the imperfect defense card, had he survived. In fact, TM's defense would have been even better, since GZ approached him with a gun. Now, if anyone could argue being in fear for one's life, it would have been TM. But after the scuffle ensued, so could GZ.

The whole concept of imperfect defense rather than proportionate response provides legal justification to rapidly escalate any situation into violence, in which both parties can claim the same defense. But only the survivor can apply the defense and "win". Therefore, the lesson becomes: Leave no survivors.

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, July 12, 2013 10:53 PM

Hey Frem,

Adding to your assessment, I don't understand the logic behind Zimmerman's proposed fear for his life, in his feeble attempt to escape justice, when his lies points out he obviously ignored, as you correctly stated, all semblance of common sense.

What I mean is, if he was so afraid why did he leave his car? That is the question put forth by the prosecutor. Makes you wonder if he even had a car.
Several times I watched the tapes and felt, this guy is making it up as he goes. His description of the struggle for the gun, for instance. He literally tacked on, "oh, by the way, he said he was going to kill me." Wouldn't that be the number one thing out of his mouth. No, he calmly stated his claims as a matter of fact; like he was changing a tire or something.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
If I recall your posts last year, Frem ... didn't you say that

Zimmerman wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut, and he'd

convict himself by blab?

By now, I guess, there's no way his attorney would let him take

the stand.

Depends on whether his attorney really means to defend him, or intends to take a dive on purpose, and there's also what an idiot Zimmerman is, as he's fired at least one attorney rather than listen to his advice about shutting the fuck up - my exact comment was thus:
Quote:
See, from a prosecution angle, all you have to do is get this guy on the stand and start poking his fragile ego, and he'll ruin himself, lickety split - and worse, he will WANT to do it, just as his pride and ego forced that confrontation, demanded that he shoot, it will push him to tell his side of the story and "dress it up" in some logically inconsistent way that will allow a prosecutor with even a peanut for a brain (which is most of em) to completely excoriate his ass. So even if he gets a decent attorney, chances are he will no more listen to them about shutting the fuck up and staying off the stand, than he did the police dispatcher telling him not to pursue.

Really, guys like this, all you have to do is hand them a shovel, you understand ?

And in respect to Geezers stupid bullshit, one could say that's prettymuch what happened to Martin, couldn't they ? and somehow you don't have much a problem with THAT, do you - careful, you're true colors are showing.

I have ever maintained that Zimmerman is MORALLY guilty, and whether or not he is LEGALLY guilty needs be determined by a court, but since we all seem to know damn well our so-called-justice system is nothing but a fucking rubber stamp for the prison profit machine, wailing about it now does much of nothing, and again, I didn't see any fucking bitching when it railroaded kids and minorities, so maybe you should just fly that white sheet as a flag instead of wearing it, right Geeze ?

Me personally, I got an attitude about this cause it demeans MY work and profession, that which puts food on MY table, so yeah verily imma take it a bit more harsh than most would.

-Frem

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, July 13, 2013 2:48 AM

Well, what's pissin me off about it is that the whole matter has gone far far beyond anything Zimmerman did or didn't do cause of factors external to the incident.

Firstly, there's the propaganda campaign playing both sides, riling them up and setting them at each others throats by either pandering to latent fear and racism, or alternatively stoking the outrage of folks who have perhaps some right to be, but doing so for nefarious purpose.
This isn't just the usual ratings based controversy bullshit either, this is deliberate participation and manipulation.

Now, I hold the First Amendment a little dearer than most, as I am of the mind yes you can yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, but should you do so you are then responsible for the CONSEQUENCES which result from that action - and while unlikely, I think the major media outlets should be held accountable for their part in trying to forment a situation which could spark civil unrest.

The rest of it is that there's been so much bullshit - as I pointed out initially, and was proven out on later, Zimm was a cop-wannabe and ass-kisser, and since cops love to have their fucking egos stroked, they tried to cover this shit up for him.
Most likely that was the officers who's asses he was kissin, and perhaps without the knowledge or participation of their superiors, but it is what it is, an attempted coverup, which makes THEM additionally culpable, but since of course they're treated as little tin gods immune to accountability that lets them off the hook and encourages both society and a jury to take it all out on Zimmerman, which isn't really fair.

Then there's the homeowners org letting a nutter like that self-appoint as security despite having an obvious agenda and blatant mental issues, which are SO obvious as to be undeniable, as many of you have noticed - which also begs the question of who the hell cleared this guy for CCW, when he is obviously a potential danger with one ?
But no, it ALL falls on Zimm, even shit that ain't his fault, cause everyone else slithers away from being held properly accountable.

On the OTHER side, is the USDOJ financing some of the protest marches out of their CRS fund during the period from Mar25-Apr12 2012, while one could look at it as providing a release vent and putting it under official sanction to avoid trouble starting, a more cynical eye would perhaps wonder if whipping up a frenzy and then stepping aside when things go to hell might be yet another manufactured "incident" to justify their own existence.
(Documentation now available via Judicial Watch)

Plus there is prosecutorial misconduct, not least of which is a little sleight of hand with discovery, and shifty tricks like the one I broke down regarding hollowpoint loads.

Much as it disgusts me, this compromises any concept of a Fair Trial, and begrudgingly with gritted teeth I admin that *SHOULD* mean a walkaway... but of course our so called Justice system is so rigged up this way that it's hard to feel sympathy for a guy like Zimm when folks are dropshot 24-7 for far less, and often blatantly innocent - where was this sympathy when those two PA Judges were ruining kids lives like a goddamn assembly line, you know ?

What SHOULD happen now, in a better world than ours...
Zimm cops an Alford Plea(1) by virtue of his belief that he was acting properly under the law, and the court takes this into account and convicts him of manslaughter with minimal or suspended sentence - because factually the purpose of all this is to make sure his dumb ass pays for the crime and ensure he is unlikely to do it again.
Well pulling his CCW and smacking a criminal charge on his background blacklists him from any position where that would be likely, and frankly I think the fact that he's been made a whipping boy and bit of a laughingstock by all this, along with the punitive financial burden of defending himself, is a pretty solid punishment right there given that the inevitable civil suit against him by Mar

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