Iraq: Ten years later

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Saturday, March 23, 2013 00:10
VIEWED: 10954
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CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I wish she could visit a few of those other countries...or maybe just learn about them?

I've not only visited them. I grew up in 3rd world countries in Asia, Middle East, and South America.

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Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

PENQUIN11

Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by penquin11:
We didn't put Sadam in power.
Some people beg to differ.

http://www.representativepress.org/CIASaddam.html

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Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

Info that you need to know to understand why that article is bull:

a) Sadam Hussein was promoted to 2nd in command of the Bath party in 1976 and when President Al-Bakr stepped down he took power. There was no coup.

b) The Bath party took power in Iraq in 1958 because of the 14 July Revolution.

c)The revolution in Iraq that took place on July 14th, 1958 saw the overthrow of the Hashemite Monarchy, which was originally setup in 1921 by the Brits (can you say: Puppet?). And the Revolution- which established the Bath party as the party in power in Iraq (same party Sadam was in)- was primarily motivated by Anti- British/American Sentiments. Heck in 1972 the Bath party signed a treaty of friendship with the Soviets....

d) the Qasim guy it references, whose name it doesn't even spell correctly, he was in power and did favor a communist approach. There was a revolt in 1963, however his opposition came from within the Bath party and centered around his refusal to join the UAR, not his refusal to cut ties with Communists.

e) The United Arab Federation was an attempt to create a united Arab nation between Jordan and Iraq.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

STORYMARK

Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:20 PM

What, you mean we shouldn't take the word of a fringe website that can't spell, consistently use capitalization, or tell the difference between Iraq and Syria?

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:06 PM

So much naivety on this thread, unbelievable.

I've been involved in local sports clubs and kindergartens where politics is rife. You end up compromising all over the place because there are a lot of people who want different things.

Thus is the nature of human society and this is what gets played out on the world arena, its just that the stakes are higher.

No compromise has two components, dictatorship or disengagement. Neither are great options.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
No compromise has two components, dictatorship or disengagement. Neither are great options.

Yep. That's heart of it. I'm so grateful to Niki for bringing "RWA" into the forum, because it explains a lot. Authoritarian types see only dictatorship or disengagement as solutions, because they can't imagine anything else.

But, Niki, I don't regret doing a little dance with CTS. I wanted to make sure I understand her, and I do.

CTS - you'll note that you have not offered any solution that did anything but make you feel good about yourself. You have not addressed any small part of this thing called reality. I think it's quite telling that your idea of a "solution" is to place blame on others and to publicly congratulate yourself that the blame is 100% not yours. What you've said in this thread says a lot about your priorities.

Now, I figure anyone who needs to do all that work really needs the ego boost that comes from it. So you go ahead and do what you need to get by. It's probably best that you leave the solving of actual problems to those who can engage in, discuss, and assess reality.

Speaking of which...

Penguin11, I don't think I've properly welcomed you! There's a penguin who stops by RWED from time to time, and it took me a while to figure out you're not him (which should of been obvious, he has rather unique signature.) Oh, that isn't criticism of your screen name. There can never be too many penguins. :)

I am so not a history/civics/politics expert. The little I know I've learned from encountering people like you. You obviously know a lot about the Middle East. Is this because of your dad serving? Do you have any more to share, especially regarding solutions? Are there any?

I tend to think the best the US can do is get the hell out of there and let those people run their own lives and their own country, though that's not likely to happen real soon. Our military may leave, but our corporations won't.

What do you think?

(BTW Byte - if you take my writing off of CTS as anything negative toward you, I will hunt you down and give you virtual kicks in the virtual butt until you believe that I LIKE you!)

PENQUIN11

Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:30 PM

My father was in the military for 24 years, and fought in every conflict along the way. He was a psychological operations guy so he had to study up on the cultures and political history of the Middle East. That combined with my general interest in politics, especially my aspirations to become a diplomat, is why I know so much about the Middle East.

I also am a huge history nerd and the Middle East has an extremely interesting history dating back to the Abbassid Caliphs.

I think that the United States will always have a role in Middle Eastern affairs, however I think it is time we pull out our military because there really isn't much else we can do at this point. After we nail Al Queda's new #1 we will have no reason to have anyone there, and even then we don't need our army in Afghanistan to accomplish that. I think our international gaze needs to shift to Latin America before we lose control (influence wise) over the Panama canal- however, that once again will not involve our military.

If Iraq is to improve it will be because the Shia and Sunni populations are able to compromise with one another, something that will likely only happen at the cost of the Kurds (historically the Shia and Sunnis unite when slaughtering the Kurds).

Afghanistan is the mother of all busts. It is a nation that could easily have a booming economy and be a powerhouse for its region if it could get its act together. Afghani soldiers/militants have always been regarded as some of the bravest in the world, and that stands true to this day, however the conflict between the Pashtun and Tajec tribes is going to tear apart the nation, with the Pashtun's being the likely winner.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 22, 2013 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by penquin11:
My father was in the military for 24 years, and fought in every conflict along the way. He was a psychological operations guy so he had to study up on the cultures and political history of the Middle East. That combined with my general interest in politics, especially my aspirations to become a diplomat, is why I know so much about the Middle East.

I also am a huge history nerd and the Middle East has an extremely interesting history dating back to the Abbassid Caliphs.

That's excellent. I find history very "messy". I can't keep everything straight in my head, and find it difficult to assess fact from opinion. (I'm a physicist. I HATE opinion LOL!) As I get older, I find history relevant enough to attempt to sort through the varying accounts.

Quote:
I think that the United States will always have a role in Middle Eastern affairs, however I think it is time we pull out our military because there really isn't much else we can do at this point. After we nail Al Queda's new #1 we will have no reason to have anyone there, and even then we don't need our army in Afghanistan to accomplish that.

This is coming from an ignoramus: won't there just be a new #1? Ten years now, we've heard top Al Quaida people going down again and again, and yet another top dog always pops up. When does it end? Can it?

Quote:
I think our international gaze needs to shift to Latin America before we lose control (influence wise) over the Panama canal- however, that once again will not involve our military.

Good point. I am not familiar with Panama, but I am following, a little, the situation in Venezuela. These aren't stable countries. Great, another area of the world to worry for! :/

Quote:
If Iraq is to improve it will be because the Shia and Sunni populations are able to compromise with one another, something that will likely only happen at the cost of the Kurds (historically the Shia and Sunnis unite when slaughtering the Kurds).

I was in Kuwait in 2005, for a conference that had scientists from all over the Middle East. I asked an Iraqi about this issue. It's funny, the response I got was that the "common" people don't care. Sunni, Shia mix. (Hmm. He didn't bring up Kurds...) It's only the politicians that get so bent over all this, he said.

I don't know if I would apply that 100%, but I found it quite interesting. It's been a while, so I might have it wrong, but I'm pretty sure the man telling me this was from one sect and married to a woman from the other.

Quote:
Afghanistan is the mother of all busts. It is a nation that could easily have a booming economy and be a powerhouse for its region if it could get its act together. Afghani soldiers/militants have always been regarded as some of the bravest in the world, and that stands true to this day, however the conflict between the Pashtun and Tajec tribes is going to tear apart the nation, with the Pashtun's being the likely winner.

I don't know the tribes. What I do know is that the people of this country are capable of doing lots of complicated shit. They aren't stupid, as far as science and engineering goes.

Where I see drawbacks, and this is based on conferences I went to in Kuwait and Turkey and fieldwork trips to Georgia (yeah, it's not the Middle East, but was once Soviet Union and is relevant to the area, I think), is that graft and sexism is holding the area back.

I spent 10 days in Tbilisi trying to get my equipment through customs. It only took so long because this was the first trip when we didn't pay bribes. Then, in Kuwait, I experienced many extremely kind and warm men, and also some who did not want to shake my hand or speak to me. (I'm female.)

Sorry if I'm lecturing. I really do want to hear more from you. I know my experience is limited. I've made some trips, but spent most of it thinking about what I was doing, rather than learning about where I was. I

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 22, 2013 3:41 AM

Haven't done this in a while - double woo-hoo!

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, March 22, 2013 3:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
No compromise has two components, dictatorship or disengagement. Neither are great options.

I don't have a problem with compromise. Compromise on issues like should we spend more money on health care or education.

There can be NO compromise on issues like rape and murder. That you guys don't see this point is WHY we have wholesale state sponsored rape and murder.

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Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, March 22, 2013 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
CTS - you'll note that you have not offered any solution that did anything

That my solution does nothing is your opinion. Which is why you don't endorse my solution.

I believe if enough people acted on my solution, it WILL do something in reality.

Incidentally, doing nothing is BETTER than committing murder.

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Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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