Real World Event Discussions

Iraq: Ten years later

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Saturday, March 23, 2013 00:10
VIEWED: 10954
PAGE 6 of 9

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:44 PM

Oh, that one reeeely makes me laugh. YOU got insulted??? Did you read the threads? Who exactly are being called villains here, and who are trying to explain that life ain't black and white, that just because you voted for the lesser of two evils doesn't make you responsible for every human being who dies if that person gets into office? YOU're being insulted? That's a laugh!

Let's peruse what's being said to and about those of us who believe Obama was a better option than McCain or Romney and voted for him because of it:

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(Obama) continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it),

willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses.

you guys sound a lot like those CNN apologists for the rapist boys

did you guys vote for him a SECOND time? Yes. Yes you did. And I will never forgive you for it.

You fawn over him enough to vote for him

So we are fawning over a murderer, willfully ignoring atrocities, making excuses for a wife beater and apologists for a rapist who will never be forgiven for our crimes. But it is you and CTTS who are personally being insulted (leaving out also the fact you weren't responded to directly). Holy shit wow.

By the way, there is, Byte, whether you recognize it or not, a HUGE difference between "blind" and "ignorant" and "stupid". I, for one did not call ANYONE stupid; naive, yes, but please don't put words in my mouth. Or do, if you feel like it, but it's a lie. The things said to us were quite clearly typed; "stupid" was not ever written, by me at least.

Lastly, yes, there IS a difference between Presidents, and between parties...sometimes a huge one. Read a little history about what happens during different administrations to this country, make the effort, I dare you, and show me there is NO difference, it's ALL bad, it's ALL rigged. Make your case, if you want to bandy that shit about. Because there are huge differences in how things are done and WHAT is done; they're not as good as they should be, either party, and not enough good gets done, but don't hand me that line of bullshit that there's no difference unless you're willing to use your brains to try and SHOW IT!

"the only candidates who get offered up are the best scramblers out of all the monsters in a popularity contest." THAT is patently untrue. More true in Presidential contests than others, but even then, a simplistic, untrue statement.

Mark had the definitive statement on this argument, in my opinion:

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Those who just take their ball and go home to pout have chose irrelevence, after which their opinions, no matter how angry, are nothing but pissing in the wind.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:14 PM

CTS said those things. But you just insulted CTS for some viewpoints I hold. So yes, I'm now insulted.

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By the way, there is, Byte, whether you recognize it or not, a HUGE difference between "blind" and "ignorant" and "stupid". I, for one did not call ANYONE stupid; naive, yes, but please don't put words in my mouth. Or do, if you feel like it, but it's a lie.

That just makes it all better. Being called a liar on top of everything else too.

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Read a little history about what happens during different administrations to this country, make the effort, I dare you

Thanks for calling me ignorant AGAIN.

As for "show me there is NO difference, it's ALL bad, it's ALL rigged":

In the Bush administration, WHO controlled the house of representatives and and the senate when 9-11 happened, and who controlled the house and senate when we declared war on Iraq? Who were the chief of staffs? Who ran the CIA and FBI when they screwed up so badly for 9-11?

AND, would ANY of those things have changed if Al Gore was in office?

Probably not. We know that the Clintons and the Bushes were friends off the campaign trail, and obviously, they also shared political advisors and friends as well. Al Gore was part of that crowd.

There's also a lot of overlap from the Clintons to the Bushes to Obama with the czars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._executive_branch_czars

Therefore, would we have gone to war with Iraq if Al Gore had been in office instead of Bush?

YES. Because vested interests existed who were pushing for War with Iraq behind the scenes. Al Gore might have paid more attention to to the briefings for the 9-11 terrorists, but the CIA didn't do their jobs and catch the training pilots before it happened. Al Gore might have opposed an Iraq War, but everyone likely to be in his administration, including the Clintons, would have supported it and would have been advising him to go through with it. He would have received the same erroneous briefing about Saddam having yellow cake and sheltering Al Qaeda that Bush did because those briefings were put together by non-appointed personnel.

And when the democrats regained control of congress in 2004, did they manage to stop anything with Bush as president? Have they stopped any of the rights violations that Obama promised to stop since he took office? All they've managed was holding to an already predetermined date for Iraq set by the Bush Administration.

No difference.

You want to argue that one man can't change everything, and that we shouldn't blame Obama, but you and Mal4Prez have said that if only Al Gore had been in office instead of Bush NONE of this would have happened. But that is spectacularly unlikely.

And I'm allowed to be angry with all of them for being such screw-ups. For being part of a system that enables wholesale murder in other countries. I blame them for being at the wheel and not stopping what I consider to be atrocities. Both sides. You say one person can't change anything, I say as a whole they're not even trying because all that dirty money lining their greedy corrupt pockets.

You want to go off at CTS, fine, she asked for it by digging at you like she did. But you don't get to just toss out vitriol and not get blowback when the splash effect hits me. I'm irrelevant as fuck, but I will still fight back if I've been slighted. Your best bet now is to ignore me and hope I get distracted by butterflies.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:40 PM

wheeeeeeee

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:56 PM

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Again I ask: if you were suddenly Obama, in some Freaky Friday mind swap, do you think you'd be able to stop all the wars and corporate abuses on a dime? With no other innocent victims ever just because you said so?

No. But I would try. And then I would resign in protest if I couldn't succeed. I would not be a part of the system at the expense of those innocent lives. No.

And murder is a CLEARER evil than gangrape.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:57 PM

LOL, Byte. I'm sorry you got some of my blowback.

Hey guys, leave Byte alone. I'm the asshole here, not her.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:17 PM

Nobody's anybody's baby here CTTS; we're all responsible for what we respond, you know that.

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And I'm allowed to be angry with all of them for being such screw-ups. For being part of a system that enables wholesale murder in other countries. I blame them for being at the wheel and not stopping what I consider to be atrocities. Both sides.

Abso-friggin-lootely! And so am I, and that's part of the point. The many--and I do mean MANY--of us here on RWED who are called "lefties" are quite quick to scream and holler--AND PUT UP POSTS DECRYING--drone attacks, staying in Afghanistan, and any number of other things we see wrong with the left/Obama/Democratic Senators/whatever. To condemn us because we voted for who we thought would do less damage, rather than--what, not voting and sitting around bitching about it???--is highly offensive and insulting to me, a citizen of a county which ALLOWS me the privilege of participating in my government!

The argument is purely that simply because we voted for Obama as the lesser of two perceived evils we should be condemned out of hand. That is the only argument. That's a stupid argument in my opinion, and that of others. If one doesn't vote, one isn't in the position to judge anything or anyONE...one can, of course, as you and CTTS happily have, but your opinion will be considered irrelevant; you chose not to participate, that makes you at fault for WHOEVER wins, whatever monster is at the helm, by default.

It is, in my opinion, simplistic to say there is no difference between the parties; it is, in my opinion, naive to say "it's all bad", and I've said so.

Hey, lady, you got nothin' on me. I have no desire to have knock-down, drag-out fights with anyone, but I'll speak my mind, I don't care if you feel it's "fighting back" to hurl invectives at me in return. You said you were insulted; I showed you the insulting things WE had been charged with; those are facts.

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Being called a liar on top of everything else too.

You stated "Maybe we just kinda disagree, as opposed to either you and Mal4Prez or me and CTS are stupid". I never wrote the word "stupid" once, nor can I find anywhere that Mal4 or anyone else called anyone "stupid". Your statement pretty clearly implied that someone was saying you were stupid. Ergo what you wrote was incorrect.

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you and Mal4Prez have said that if only Al Gore had been in office instead of Bush NONE of this would have happened

THAT is a flat out lie, you want me not to say something is a lie which obviously is? Show where I wrote any such thing. By saying "lesser of two evils", I'm in NO way saying Gore would have been peachy. I don't think we'd have invaded Iraq; I'm pretty sure we'd have invaded Afghanistan if the warnings of 9/11 hadn't been heeded, and maybe things would have worked out better if we HAD kept our eyes and military there, done what we set out to do and gotten out. Or not, who knows? But if you lie about what I wrote, of course I'll say it's a lie!

I'm pretty sure if McCain had won, we would be more fully involved in both Iraq and Afghanistan, he has pretty clearly said as much. Whether there were vested interests in going into Iraq or not, you cannot state flatly that we'd have gone in if Gore had been elected. That's not a debate: you are making a point based on assumptions, they prove nothing.

For "proof", you'd have to look back at previous administrations to see what, if any, the differences are. I may take the time to make my argument, but not today. The problem you're up against is that your argument is pure black and white: "There is no difference". Surely you can see that's not a valid point. "There's not much difference" would be easier to defend, but then you've admitte

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:21 PM

"And then I would resign in protest if I couldn't succeed" There simply are no words. If you can't conceive of the permutations that would follow such actions. Ah, well: There are no words.

Your conscience might feel jim dandy. You could go home and pat yourself on the back smugly, enjoy all the perks of having been Prez for, what, five minutes?, and watch the country go to hell. Yup, very commendable.

Wow.

Time to go back to what Mark said: "Those who just take their ball and go home to pout have chose irrelevence, after which their opinions, no matter how angry, are nothing but pissing in the wind."

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:23 PM

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To condemn us because we voted for who we thought would do less damage, rather than--what, not voting and sitting around bitching about it???--is highly offensive and insulting to me, a citizen of a county which ALLOWS me the privilege of participating in my government!

I didn't. You're still confusing me with CTS. And still insulting me.

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You said you were insulted; I showed how what was said to and about those of us who believe in participating in the voting process was clearly, downright insulting, and sneered at you for thinking you were insulted in comparison.

So in your view, being insulted by CTS more makes any claims I might have to being insulted by you moot. Fun times. I do so enjoy being insulted, confused for someone else, then told I have no right to complain about it.

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The problem you're up against is that your argument is pure black and white: "There is no difference". Surely you can see that's not a valid point. "There's not much difference" would be easier to defend, but then you've admitted to our very point that it's worth trying to find the lesser of two evils, don't you see?

There isn't a lesser evil because both sides are corrupt and work together. But you aren't to blame for that. You are free to continue voting and hoping it makes a difference.

And I will continue hoping they all fall flat on their faces when the corporations propping them up fail because of their own greed. Because I don't think we'll get meaningful change until we can take back the system from the aristocracy.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:33 PM

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
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In a nutshell. And yes, sad; but I must admit in a 45-year-old, somewhat amazing. I was damned naive at 45, but not THAT blind and ignorant, even then.

Still... Is it really necessary to call me blind and ignorant? You addressed that at CTS, but if I'm making the same arguments, well, you kinda just called me that too.

...

Pfft. Shoulda bowed out of this conversation when I said I was going to. For some reason all these arguments end up with us anarchists getting insulted.

We don't buy into something we think is a lie, so we're naive.

Instead of protesting and voting in a system that's rigged and abuses protestors and free speech, we're shirking our responsibilities by refusing to play that game and trying to find different paths for change.

We don't see a whole lot of difference which party is in power because the efforts of a few are muddled by the whole, and so to us they might as well be the same. But because we don't align ourselves with one party or another, we're BLIND.

Thanks a lot for making the EFFORT to talk to us lazy cowardly rubes.

Huh. Why are you so eager to be insulted that you invent insults? I never called you blind or ignorant or naive. I made the point of telling you, and CTS, that I don't blame you for your choices. Did you catch where I said I've made those same choices myself? If you try hard enough, you can turn that into an implied insult. But I never called my younger self naive. My whole point was that I understand your reasons for your choices.

Put away the matyrdom already. I am indeed making an EFFORT to talk to you, and never ever called you a "lazy cowardly rube". I make an EFFORT to talk to you because I think this is an important conversation, and I think it's worthwhile talking to you. And to CTS. If I think someone is not worth an effort, I don't make one. Ask Rappy or Jack.

If I haven't been entirely complimentary to CTS, you'll note that she accused me of being at fault in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and stated outright that I am a supporter of such things (that would be a LIE), and that she is morally superior to me. Which is a whole bunch of insult.

Funny I don't see you complaining when an *actual* insult is aimed at me. Guess you're too busy inventing insults aimed at you.

And you know what, I still like you and will still continue to enjoy talking to you. Not lying!

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:39 PM

That post was directed at Niki, who I quoted, who did in fact say that CTS was blind and naive for not voting because she feels like none of the candidates were really serious about stopping any of the wars or the violations of human rights. And therefore, by extension, Niki said that I am blind and naive for feeling the same way.

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Funny I don't see you complaining when an *actual* insult is aimed at me. Guess you're too busy inventing insults aimed at you.

Gee, I have never once defended you or Niki in this thread, not once when I yelled at CTS that voting doesn't make you evil it just makes you optimists.

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And you know what, I still like you and will still continue to enjoy talking to you.

Let's not kid ourselves. *I* don't even like me.

Have fun.