Iraq: Ten years later
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Saturday, March 23, 2013 00:10
VIEWED: 10954
PAGE 3 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?
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The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!
FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.
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If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.
I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.
Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.
Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.
BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.
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As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.
So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?
Whatever.
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I checked Obama the first time and I carry that shame and guilt every day. People have died because of me.
Never again. I hate this president with a passion, I hate his stooges, I hate the senators and congressmen and military leadership that perpetuate all this. I never ASKED for them to defend me, I'm not really all that keen on living, you see.
But I do care if they're killing other people. I am not an excuse. The dead are not statistics. And these people making the decisions and calling the shots with cold blooded pragmatic murder and economic incentives are NOT MY LEADERS, they are my ENEMIES. They are the enemies of anyone with any pride and higher ideals left to their name.
They know it, I know it. And eventually the whole world will know it, when they send their jackboots to march on our cities. And when that happens, people will have to chose sides - and I don't mean left-wing or right-wing.
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Well, Damn Mal4, I'm just plain not needed here! You do it all for me, on most issues, and much more concisely and civilly--well, not always civilly, you're getting quite a bite! Which of course won't stop me from putting in my own two-cents' worth!Quote:
All the people who ranted and railed against W swallowed their rage when Obama took power. Sometimes, they might even express unhappiness with our Nobel Peace Prize laureate. But it is ALWAYS followed by some excuse for him.
BullfuckingSHIT! We're out there, I'VE been out there protesting and getting any any watch list you like. I was out there every Saturday for over a year, with many others, and on individual demonstrations in between, and continue to this day working, protesting, demonstrating, making signs to help others protest, writing my representatives, trying to get people elected. I won't give you a laundry list of my protestations, suffice it to say what you said is just plain wrong, and I happen to know there are MANY of us like myself.
Here's the truth: We're pragmatists, for the most part. We know it would have been WORSE under McCain, or under Romney. Not only would our actions outside America have been more aggressive, and Gitmo filled UP again, but what happened to the American people internally would have been worse.
We also know one man can't change things--tho' he HAS, in many ways nobody cares to pay attention to. Hell, even a majority wasn't able to do what they should have done, because there aren't enough of them who want to do the right thing, because of the fucking filibuster, because of the asshole right-wing fringe tea idiots and the power THEY have to stymie things. I'd love to see anyone try to do what you think should be done, I'd really love to. Obama tried to close Gitmo, but knows he's up against an impossibility. No, Mal4, closing Gitmo wasn't within his power--all anyone has to do is read what happened when he tried to understand how the right was dead set on keeping him from doing it (exactly as they were with virtually anything and everything else he tried to do, as they clearly stated). Someone may manage it somewhere down the line, but I kinda doubt it. It's awfully convenient, having a place outside the country to hide your mistakes and threaten people with, it may never be closed. He stopped trying and went on to other things like a good pragmatist; we'll see if any future President takes it up again. I'll applaud them from the mountain tops if they ever DO, but does anyone think it'll ever be a Republican?
In other words, in a nutshell, as always we're stuck with the lesser of two evils; give us a real choice THAT HAS A CHANCE OF WINNING and we'll be out in droves voting for them. Meanwhile, we keep the pressure on whoever we CAN get in power to do minimum bad and maximum good.
We're out there protesting the drones and many other things. We don't get the press, we never will, but we're out there. We try to elect people who will do the right thing, but the only people we CAN elect are politicians, and almost all of them have their own agendas, so none are perfect. Getting enough people to stand up against what's wrong takes motivating people, which takes them being angry enough to DO something, which ain't easy. But we keep trying.
What we DON'T do is laud bad leaders' actions to the sky, buy into their bullshit and support them whole-heartedly because we're propagandized into believing they are all good, or even mostly good. We try to determine who will do the least harm, and hopefully the most good, and put them in office to avoid the Sarah Palins and Karl Rove's getting into power. We work with what's available.
Of COURSE nobody was going to toss the Bush Administration into jail. Pisses the hell out of most of us that nothing was done, but Mike explained that one and that's w
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And Byte; how do you think you'd be feeling today if you'd voted for McCain??
What exactly does I HATE ALL OF THEM mean to you folks? Is there ambiguity? Did I misspeak?
All of them means ALL OF THEM. There is no better option. They're all the same. They're all terrible. They all help perpetuate a system THAT KILLS PEOPLE FOR ECONOMIC INTERESTS.
I'm getting worked up again. But suffice to say, if I voted for McCain, I would feel EXACTLY how I voted for Obama. If I voted for Bush I would feel exactly the same as if I voted for Al Gore. Different figureheads, same people on the staff, the administration, and in congress. Pointless to consider what might have been because it wouldn't have changed anything.
And it enrages me that these people have made it so there IS no choice, that we are stuck in a perpetual death spiral, and they are the only ones with the golden parachutes. The rest of us are their sacrifices, stepping stones to their greener pastures. I am to blame for this because I ALLOWED them to do this! And I refuse to play their game. Not again.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We're out there, I'VE been out there protesting and getting any any watch list you like.
That's great, Niki.
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Here's the truth: We're pragmatists, for the most part. We know it would have been WORSE under McCain, or under Romney. ...
We also know one man can't change things--
This part? Not so great. The excuses of pragmatism and how his hands are tied. No. Not acceptable.
The only acceptable response is to hate him with as much passion as you hated Dubya. Cause he's actually done WORSE than Dubya.
I know the presidency is limited in power. What I won't accept is using the limitations of power as an excuse to CONTINUING TO MAKE THINGS WORSE. He has a duty not just to Americans, but to humankind in general, to first do no harm. That means if he can't shut down Guantanamo, or pardon Bradley Manning, or shut down the wars in Iraq and Iran by himself, then he needs to resign rather than trade Iraqi and Afghanistani lives for his little sliver of power. It is the only conscientious thing to do--not just for him, but for ANYONE who accepts the office of the Presidency.
What do I expect from you guys? I just want you dems to stop making excuses for him. To stop sympathizing for him. To decry and denounce his presidency for what it is: a tyrannical and murderous administration bent on fucking up the world wholesale, just like Dubya's.
Cause from where I stand, you guys sound a lot like those CNN apologists for the rapist boys, except in this case, the rapist boy is the President of the United States. Yeah, yeah, rape is bad. But you gotta see things from the boys' point of view.
THAT is what I mean by turning a blind eye.
Quote:
Byte:
And I refuse to play their game.
Byte's response to Obama is the only one I can respect on this board.
After seeing how much he fucked up Guantanamo and Iraq and Iran, did you guys vote for him a SECOND time? Yes. Yes you did. And I will never forgive you for it.
-----
Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?Quote:
The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!
FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.Quote:
If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.
I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.
Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.
Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.
BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.Quote:
As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.
So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?
Whatever.
Again, all valid points.
Some few of you may have noticed that I'm not a fan of drone strikes. That puts me at odds with the administration AND with the likes of Rappy and "Hero" here, because they love drone strikes (or at least they used to - they may have flip-flopped since li'l Randy the PaulBot decided to use them for fundraising purposes).
I'm not a fan of wars, indefinite detention, the "unitary Executive", torture, warrantless wiretaps (even when they catch Tricky Dick Nixon committing treason) or a whole host of other things that have been rammed down our throats in the past and then handed off to the current occupant of the Oval Office.
Of course, even fewer of you will remember that I warned against giving them those powers in the first place. I was ridiculed for that, but I was also ridiculed for suggesting that drone strikes overseas would lead to abuse of the policy, or that Bush's wars would cost us trillions of dollars instead of a few billion.
Bear that in mind next time you hear those who were first with the ridicule try to convince you that any war with Iran or North Korea would take only a few days and cost no American lives and very little money. There's no such thing as a cheap war.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that
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Byte's response to Obama is the only one I can respect on this board.
Whoa there! Let's not agree with me so quickly. I'm dangerously insane.
I do think the other board members here do have the pride and the higher ideals I mentioned. But the time is not yet right for them to rally to the cause.
The government above all else is incompetent. Everything else that it is will be revealed eventually. And when that happens, there will be choices again.
I am still on this board because I know where the majority of these board members will chose to go. That's important to remember.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?
You said it with your vote.
Quote:And yet, you voted him into office. Again.
FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.
Quote:I'm an anarchist. Not what I want either.
that is NOT what I want.
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...or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.
You fawn over him enough to vote for him. Or did I assume wrongly that you did?
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So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems?
You are to more to blame than me because you put him in office, and because you still DEFEND putting him in office.
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Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?
No pedestal here. No. But I am not defending him in any way or defending a choice to put him in office in anyway. So slightly higher moral ground, yes. But only slightly.
-----
Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.
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Yeah, Niki, I've got some bite lately. Clearly CTS and I don't see get along, and what's really annoying is that I think we do agree on many principles. I feel she's pecking at me because of past disagreements more than what's being said now.
So yes, CTS, I'm sick of the passive aggressive. If you want to have it out with me, let's go. But don't misinterpret my posts and try to assign to me opinions that aren't mine so you can one up me or something.
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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And it enrages me that these people have made it so there IS no choice, that we are stuck in a perpetual death spiral, and they are the only ones with the golden parachutes. The rest of us are their sacrifices, stepping stones to their greener pastures.
I understand and empathize. Again, I feel this is root of everything: the money is running the system. Perhaps it is setting myself up for disappointment, but I have a lot of hope in Elizabeth Warren. Us little people are aware of the power imbalance (Thanks to folks like Niki and the rest of OWS!) so pols like Warren will be getting increasing support. If we can get more people like her into the system, there may hope.
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And I refuse to play their game.
I understand this as well. However, if all the good people leave the game, it is guaranteed to not change.
The best and most peaceful way to change a system is from within. Not that I'm volunteering to run for office, and I'm certainly not going to change my mind about working in the oil business (I could be sharing in the windfall profits at this point as all my co-grad students are now, but I'd be sooo unhappy there) but I don't feel I need to keep as far from politics as possible. Once I did, but the older I get the more I'm drawn in.
None of it is perfect, little of it is actually good at this point, but the system has some directions that are better than others. I want to be a voice supporting those. Even if that means that some people will blame me for the bad parts of the system.
It's a little RWA I think, to have to be either 100% for or 100% against a political system or political person. There are very few 100% out there for me. I like some things about O and dislike others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are different levels of criticism here. The first is directed at Obama, who not only continued the atrocities of the previous administration (but oh, it's ok with his supporters if HE does it), but actually expanded the atrocities.
And this is where I say FU. Please show me where I, or anyone here, said this was OK?Quote:
The second is directed at his supporters, who willfully turn a blind eye to his abuses while making excuses for him like battered spouses. But he really loves us and won't do it again!
FU again. I do not turn a blind eye, and I criticize freely.Quote:
If I were Obama, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would shut down contracts with XE/Blackwater. I would pardon Bradley Manning, make our atrocities transparent, and make amends to the international community for our actions.
I am absolutely pissed that he has not shut down Guantanamo or pardoned Manning. The pardon is certainly within his power, and likely Guantanamo, though I'm not 100% certain.
Again, you seem to be living in this fairytale land where the president can say: Make it so, and presto it is. He is not a dictator. You are implying that president and ONLY the president has the power to start a war or set up a torture camp or end a torture camp. If that's the case, something is very very wrong. That's what Cheney and his camp were after - more power to the executive, and that is NOT what I want.
Like we tried to tell the Republicans when W was eating up power: you'll regret this when the next guy comes in. They don't seem to remember this now that O tries to act outside Congress, like with immigration. You won't like it either if O becomes the sole decider as to whether or not we are at war, then the next president is a war hound and nobody can stop him.
BTW, yes, the Nobel Prize was ridiculous. What I don't like coming from you is this attitude that I, or any poster here, gave it to him, that we thought he did anything to deserve it, or that in any way we fawn over him. You're being like Rappy along these lines. Just stop with the assumptions.Quote:
As I am neither, I will protest Obama in a way that will not get me put on some watch list. Mostly it involves withdrawing from the larger system of corporate evil in our society.
So you can withdrawal to your state of complaining about him carefully online, while the rest of us doing the exact same thing means we are to blame for his problems? Just because you checked a different box on a ballet, you are on a pillar?
Whatever.
Abso-frakin-lutely.
Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.
"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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