Nooalf Discussion
POSTED BY: m52nickerson
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 13:45
VIEWED: 39366
PAGE 7 of 17
Anthony, I dont expect sumwun to hav the same knowledge and skillz that I do in order to critisize sumthing I hav dun or sed. If you hav a lojikl argument, it warrants consideration.
The TRiSeKTOTRoN wuz a fairly eazy project. Didnt even need a skech. If you appreciate feats uv craftsmanship, hav a look at the RoGIToR [url] http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html]
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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"Like any skill, practice makes iit eazy."
But you have failed to answer the big question - why should I bother?
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Anthony, I dont expect sumwun to hav the same knowledge and skillz that I do in order to critisize sumthing I hav dun or sed. If you hav a lojikl argument, it warrants consideration.
The TRiSeKTOTRoN wuz a fairly eazy project. Didnt even need a skech. If you appreciate feats uv craftsmanship, hav a look at the RoGIToR [url] http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html]
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
Hello,
It's too bad you aren't a sword maker.
If we imagine the many things a person could invest time and effort learning, we will find that many things have more immediate and larger payoffs than learning this alternative spelling mechanism.
I move in communities that relish manufactured languages, so I understand the appeal. But it would be unreasonable to expect the common person to take an interest in this, in my opinion.
If being clearly understood is the goal, I'd restrict use of this spelling mechanism to fellow hobbyists and enthusiasts. The rest of us will only be frustrated in trying to decipher what you write.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz
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The real ansr to the big question iz that you dont need to, NIKI. You dont percieve a handicap if everybody haz it. Therez a complete ansr on paje 2 uv the website.
The main motive sumwun who iz literate woud hav iz self improvement. Learning Nooalf iz very eazy, so its almost like being able to pick up another language in a week.
The main reazon people in general shoud learn Nooalf iz to help the next generation.
Anthony, I dont recall ever hearing frum any uv the created language enthuziasts, unless you count Esperanto. I've occasionally gotten comments frum Star Trek fanz in Klingoneze, but they were just messing around.
Funny you mentioned sordz. My brother and I used to make minature sordz wen we wer kidz, hammering them out uv nailz. Got kinda fancy with colorful thred rapt handlz and jewelz embeded in the hand gardz.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Try putting that in a computer program. It will crash into itself instantly.
This is what I'm talking about. Traditional English spelling conditions children to accept nonsence while their minds and brains are in the crucial formative years.
I didnt even list all the problems with the digraph idea. Theres a very big and very obvious wun. 50 quatlooz to the 1st person to state it here!
Sorry, computers can deal with this. http://wikspeak.en.softonic.com/
It's not nonsense, but a pretty simple rule. No more complicated than yours.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359
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The common assesment that its just not worth the effort to change haz popped up a few timez here.
"It's not about making sense. It's about believing in something." - Shepard Book.
The unfortunate side effect of the educational methods used to teach spelling to children is that it becomez like a religion to them.
Like the Bible, it iz wut it iz. Its above being questioned and certainly not to be 'fixed'. Dictionaryz serve az biblez for all questionz regarding wordz, and the spelling iz the most elementary aspect.
Most uv the people who hav chozen to debate me on Nooalf, even many uv my fellow reformerz, begin with the notion that I hav no idea uv the magnitude uv the undertaking.
They are not only mistaken about my awareness, they are themselvez failing to understand the fundamental reazonz there iz so much rezistence.
Unlike religion, ritten language iz an essential part uv civilization. Societyz can rize without it. Civilizationz can not. At least not with the limitationz uv our speciez.
How fast and how well, maybe even how far a civilization can go iz dependent on the quality uv its language. A big part uv that quality iz the spelling system.
Yall here woud luv to know that sumthing like the Firefly story coud happen sum day. Obviously, its entirely dependent on the development uv gravity control and powerful, efficient space drivez.
You probably hav a notion that its only a matter uv hard working, well educated scientists putting the piecez uv the puzzle together and hard working, well educated engineerz figuring out the mechanics uv it.
Not likely.
Revolutionary ideaz nearly alwayz come from the freaks. The outsiderz who havent followed the beaten path. The dyslexics who struggled in gradeskool, but took to math and science like ducks to water.
Sorta like the movie Good Will Hunting, the guy who coud possibly figure out antigravity or sum fundamental truth uv the universe coud be mopping floorz rite now, just bekuz hez dyslexic and coudnt handle the kaos uv english.
Maybe I'll never get anywhere with Nooalf. But I say its worth it to try.
its ubowt making sens & beleving in sumxing.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Anthony, I dont recall ever hearing frum any uv the created language enthuziasts, unless you count Esperanto. I've occasionally gotten comments frum Star Trek fanz in Klingoneze, but they were just messing around.
Hello,
Don't dismiss Klingon language speakers as just messing around! It's true they are hobbyists enjoying themselves, but many take the study and use of the language quite seriously. It is a real language with real grammar and spelling rules and there is even a Klingon language institute organization that discusses the language and its use.
You will also find adherents to Tolkien's Elven tongue, a language he invented while writing the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
But what all of these people know, and what Esperanto speakers didn't understand, is that languages are evolutionary, not revolutionary. You can make a language (or language system) for the use of a few interested parties, but you can not make a language or language system and expect wide adoption.
People who speak a language, even one you consider to be inefficient, are not 'handicapped' or 'disabled' in the sense you perceive. They are using a tool that evolved naturally in the context of their culture over countless generations. It is a living, breathing organism of history. It is not something that will commonly be dumped in favor of someone's carefully calculated efficiency improvement.
Perhaps someday language will evolve to adopt a better spelling or grammar mechanism, but evolution is the key. You can't skip to the end. Moreover, there is no end. Language, and its use, will evolve forever.
Today's 'Text Speak,' which shares similarities to the language system you propose (by discarding rules of grammar or spelling for efficient communication), evolved due to the need to write compactly and in short timeframes with one or two digits. It is widely adopted for this reason, and it will further change and evolve as the texting devices we use change, and our needs change with them.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz
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Quote:
Don't dismiss Klingon language speakers as just messing around!
I'm not. The Trekkiez who rote their little Klingonese quips weren't really serious about the language. They just used a translator or had a quick look at [url] http://www.omniglot.com/writing/klingon.htm].
I like the Klingon alfabet. Looks like they did a good job uv making the letterz distinctiv. Vey pretty font also.
Quote:
But what all of these people know, and what Esperanto speakers didn't understand, is that languages are evolutionary, not revolutionary.
Actually, Esperanto haz evolved since its creation. [url] http://uea.org/info/angle/an_ghisdatigo.html]
Quote:
People who speak a language, even one you consider to be inefficient, are not 'handicapped' or 'disabled' in the sense you perceive.
We are handicapped. Most people are rite or left handed, incapable uv memorizing thingz without multiple repeats, cant interpolate more than 3 elements to figure thingz out, can't survive without teknolojikl aid in common terrestrial conditionz.
You are thinking uv only the relative perspectiv for 'handicap'.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Actually, Esperanto haz evolved since its creation. http://uea.org/info/angle/an_ghisdatigo.html]
Hello,
So has Klingon. But these are not things that evolved in their own right. They were created. Then they were tinkered with by hobbyists and to fill niche needs. ('To be' had to be added to the Klingon lexicon to fill a specific need that had nothing to do with the natural evolution of language.)Quote:
We are handicapped. Most people are rite or left handed, incapable uv memorizing thingz without multiple repeats, cant interpolate more than 3 elements to figure thingz out, can't survive without teknolojikl aid in common terrestrial conditionz.
You are thinking uv only the relative perspectiv for 'handicap'.
This is inaccurate. People are well suited to their environment and the tasks they regularly perform. These are not handicaps, but adaptations to reality. People can not generally lift the front end of cars off of the ground. There is no need in our society for this skill. But some hobbyists can do it.
People can not generally make a fire without modern tools (as was illustrated in the movie Castaway) but hobbyists and people who need to survive in the wild can do it. We simply adapt and learn to do what we need to do when we need to do it.
What you perceive as a 'handicap' is another way of saying 'I have no pressing need for this in my life.'
Which is an excellent way to describe your invented language device.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yes, Anthony,
Evolution, not revolution. The whole project qua project is effed from the get. The only way this would catch on is if it were imposed and it's not gonna be imposed.
And if it WERE imposed, tomorrow, on the next generation of kids it would render ALL of previous literature, all contemporary writing more foreign than Shakespeare is to us today.
I'm thinking of The Handmaid's Tale. The main character's name is Offred. When we pick up the book, we don't know what it means. Just some science fictional future name. My first sense of its meaning was as some terrible neo-puritanical name derived from "offered" or sacrificed. In Shakespeare's time the word "offered" was pronounced "off'red." Only later did it dawn on me that it was the terrible dehumanizing "Of Fred."
So we're gonna translate "Offred" into JO's language how? The ambiguity of its pronunciation is quite conscious and intentional, part of its beauty, its genius. So, is it "Uvfred" or "Ofred?"
I understand how kneejerk folk can be about disparaging anything outside the norm, but some of the resistance to JO's scheme is quite personal and logical.
But, y'know what's funny? We're going to see (possibly even in our lifetime to some extent) the language move pretty radically toward JO-speak. It'll happen when all our tech goes voice activated. When everything's voice activated and reader programs sound like actual humans and not 50's robots, spelling and writing will become more like hobbies than rules of survival. Most people will live their lives in a wholly oral tradition. Written English will be relegated to college courses and typing will be as rare (or as common) a skill as computer programming. But even then, the simplification of English spelling will prolly remain ad hoc and unofficial. Spelling will simply be less relevant in a fully verbalized culture.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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