Nooalf Discussion
POSTED BY: m52nickerson
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 13:45
VIEWED: 39366
PAGE 5 of 17
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
...lack of a plural "you" (often constructed as "yous" or "yous guys")...
Ahem: y'all. Just sayin'.
See, but here's a thing: you phoneticized "construction" as "kunstrukshun" when to my ear it's clearly pronounced "konstrukshun." As I understand it, French, Italian and Spanish all have pretty standardized pronunciations. Sure, there are regional differences, but to my knowledge, they are legitimately regional, while here in America pronunciation seems thoroughly whimsical. And a lot of Americans mumble. Id hata ree summava mumlin pipl's fnetiwridin. With a fully phoneticized written language, what would stop English from becoming dozens of little incompatible patois? The consistency of written English seems a strength, not a weakness in that case. I guess, then the idea is to standardize pronunciation and that's why our non-American friends think JO's being an ass.
Sorry, guess this conversation has already been had and I'm just catching up. Just hard for me to get past the unsupported assholery of JO, whereas Signy is speaking in a language I understand.
Carry on. (Carrion?)HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Oh, I have been well-schooled in the difference between merry, marry, and Mary. I STILL can't hear the difference, tho!
I think that standardized phoneticized English would actually do away with a lot of pronunciation differences, and I would be sad to see (hear? heer?) them go. As far as deciding exactly WHICH spelling to use, I'd be OK with nearly any of them. I have seen dialogue written to match accent which was perfectly interpretable (I fond it fife fit don... I found it five feet down) but I expect that eventually there will be a common spelling and that the result will not be PERFECTLY phonetic anway, just a closer approximation.
I do see upsides and downsides, but overall I think the upsides are greater.
PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH Y'ALL!
But doze guyz from Joyzee... yuz guyz gotta tayk it up wid da boss!
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Thanks for the unbiased support, SIGNYM
Most uv the world knowz wut a problem English spelling iz, but unfortunately, literate nativez hav the strongest hold on the language'z future.
M52 rote:
Quote:
Okay....and?
I'll spell it out for you.
The quote sez that childrenz reading development iz dependent on comprehending the alfabetic principal.
Having a reliable connection between letterz and soundz iz THE essential part uv the principal. The less reliable that connection, the greater the difficulty in acquiring literacy.
The traditional spelling chart in the Nooalf charts showz between 1 and 4 soundz that a letter coud reprezent and thats only the most common and any letter coud also be silent. This shoots that reliable connection thing to hell. The alfabetic principal bekumz a foggy illusion.
This foggy illusion haz spawned a huge market for products that promise to help struggling students catch up. A complete Jolly Phonics course costs over 1,000$! Go to the toy department at Walmart and you will find an aisle full uv toyz, gamez and books that all do the same thing: rote memorization.
Nooalf, by comparison, can be learned from a chart the size uv a bizness card by average children in a month with little or no assistence.
Your were going say 'proov it' next. Then you woud ignore wutever I offered, claiming 'I see no evidence'.
So lets bypass the predictable rigamarole. I'll send you a PoKIT PIKS mini chart and even a Super Mini Chart for free. You can give them to sum ordinary English speaking children who arent reading yet and see for yourself.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Nooalf, by comparison, can be learned from a chart the size uv a bizness card by average children in a month with little or no assistence.
Your were going say 'proov it' next. Then you woud ignore wutever I offered, claiming 'I see no evidence'.
So lets bypass the predictable rigamarole. I'll send you a PoKIT PIKS mini chart and even a Super Mini Chart for free. You can give them to sum ordinary English speaking children who arent reading yet and see for yourself.
No thanks, not going to waste time teaching my children something that they will never use. Besides If I really wanted a cart I would just grab the image off your site. A quick print screen and past into paintbrush works. You really should look to lock that down.
You are right I'm am going to point out that your claims are unfounded and amount to the wind from a passing fart. It is conceivable that a child would be able to learn the rules for nooalf pretty quickly. That does not mean it is a better system. The majority of people do fine learning to read. If anything we need to find better ways to teach those who do struggle. You know the old saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
...of course that would take real work.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359
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Foist uv all ...
Why is everyone struggling over which symbols and which pronunciation? There is a perfectly good American standard pronunciation and set of phonetic symbols in every dictionary. If you REALLY want to know how to pronounce something - and have the symbols that go right with it - it's right there. Has been for years.
But what to do about all those OTHER English-speaking countries that might have different pronunciation and may not be so hep with American English pronunciation crammed down their throats with phonetic spelling. Will American children learn American spelling and be then unable to function in the rest of the English speaking world? Like America isn't backward enough as it is.
And what of the Chinese? Surely no one is claiming they have excellent academics b/c of their phonetic alphabet. Or the ease of their pronunciation.
I personally would like to see a 'New English' invented - without the hiccups of the old English (no personal singular neutral word, which leads people to say 'they' when they don't want to specify 'he' or 'she', some of the better verb tenses of other languages, eliminate assumed being male, and object-verb construction which is neurologically natural framing, among others). Yeah yeah I know - let's all learn Esperanto! ..not..
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The other countryz are gobbling up American Standard az fast az Hollywood and rock bandz can crank it out, 1KIKI.
If they dont like to see it in riting, they are perfectly welcome to rite in their own dialect.
A practical advantaj will be that you can see where sumthing wuz ritten.
M52 rote:
Quote:
No thanks,
You are so predictable.
Quote:
If I really wanted a cart I would just grab the image off your site. A quick print screen and past into paintbrush works. You really should look to lock that down.
You can download the entire ToKING PIKsRZ file for free. Full size chart with hundredz uv wordz in traditional English and Nooalf all with sound. Its on the site sumwhere.
I had hopes uv making money with this in the beginning, but realized the level uv rezistence iz too hi. It woud be nice to make at least enuf for the effort to support itself, but so far it aint happening. Likely sumthing to do with that antisalez talent I mentioned earlier.
A frend uv mine who witnessed me unselling sumthing called it 'universal anti-kovorka'.
Quote:
It is conceivable that a child would be able to learn the rules for nooalf pretty quickly. That does not mean it is a better system.
Very quickly. Each letter makes 1 sound. Thats the only rule. And yes, it obviously duz mean its a better system. Are you going to deny the entire concept uv advantage now?
Quote:
The majority of people do fine learning to read.
In wun uv the interviewz on the Children uv the Code website, wich you obviously didnt bother to vizit, an educational proffessional sez "Sum kidz learn to read riding past the library on their bikes. Other struggle for yearz and never really catch on. Most are sumwer in between." Az SIGNYM mentioned, the price our kidz are paying iz delayed education in real subjects.
Thanks for starting this topic, M52, but you seem to not hav any dezire to participate in an honest debate. Ignoring links, repeating lost arguments, denying plain facts & lojik are the futile tactics uv sumwun whoz beliefs dont hold up on their own.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
The other countryz are gobbling up American Standard az fast az Hollywood and rock bandz can crank it out, 1KIKI.
Yes, the current standard. Take a hint.
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I had hopes uv making money with this in the beginning, but realized the level uv rezistence iz too hi. It woud be nice to make at least enuf for the effort to support itself, but so far it aint happening. Likely sumthing to do with that antisalez talent I mentioned earlier.
A frend uv mine who witnessed me unselling sumthing called it 'universal anti-kovorka'.
The fact that you can't even give your stuff away should be another hint. People are resistant to it largely because it sucks like a new born calf.
You fail to realize that any type of spelling reform is going to have to serve many masters. On big one is that it will have to give people the ability to decipher older texts, and keep the existing alphabet. It is very possible change spelling to better match phonetics without wholesale change. There is absolutely no reason to change "th" with is one of the easier rules to understand to "X". So trying to peg the alphabet to 1 letter equals one sound is fairly stupid.
Fuck, nooalf does not even truly get a 1 to 1 ratio since there are somewhere between 40 to 50 unique sounds to the English language.
http://www.auburn.edu/academic/education/reading_genie/spellings.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology
http://www.esl-lounge.com/pronunciation/phonetic-chart.php
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Very quickly. Each letter makes 1 sound. Thats the only rule. And yes, it obviously duz mean its a better system. Are you going to deny the entire concept uv advantage now?
That single rule is also a problem. You forget things like the importance of capitalization and such. Fuck you don't even respond to it. You simply can't wrap your head around the fact that simpler and easier is not always better.
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:In wun uv the interviewz on the Children uv the Code website, wich you obviously didnt bother to vizit, an educational proffessional sez "Sum kidz learn to read riding past the library on their bikes. Other struggle for yearz and never really catch on. Most are sumwer in between." Az SIGNYM mentioned, the price our kidz are paying iz delayed education in real subjects.
In between does not mean struggling. As far as delayed education in real subjects, one language is a real subject. Than you have the fact that students are learn many things much sooner that they ever did in the past. A large portion of those who complete high school do so with some knowledge to advance studies such as calculus.
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Thanks for starting this topic, M52, but you seem to not hav any dezire to participate in an honest debate. Ignoring links, repeating lost arguments, denying plain facts & lojik are the futile tactics uv sumwun whoz beliefs dont hold up on their own.
Here pretend I speak in a Scottish accent for a moment...fook u!
You have hand waved issues I have brought up and addressed almost every other one with nothing but personal opinion. That is not winning a debate or even having an intelligent discussion.
That shit is the very reason nooalf will never be anything other that your site and you pushing it on random discussion boards you come across. You have put in no serious work and seem immune to any type of criticism. You somehow think that this will catch on just by your ugly ass website and you pushing it. It won't.
You made a comment about nooalf will someday in the future being widespread. This delusion of grandeur should be proof enough of your psychosis. In the future the there is only one place nooalf will ever be seen, and the people who happen past will wonder if the someone had a seizure while carving your headstone.
I do
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Quote:
You fail to realize...yada yada yada
You offer up several criteeks uv the Nooalf spelling system and its implimentation. Every wun indicating that you didnt read or failed to comprehend wut passed under your eyez on the website.
Dont take this az a personal attack, but you started out angry and are getting angrier. Jujing by that and your generally sloppy grammar, punctuation and even spelling, I think this iz a sensativ issue for you; that you had trouble in grammar skool and got teazed andor punished for it.
Calm down. Get a grip. Keep in mind that this iz just a discussion forum on the internet.
If you want to debate anything, you hav to know wut youre talking about. So you need to install the font [url] http://www.nooalf.com/2NQ4YQ/] and then read [url] http://www.nooalf.com/LoJIK.html] with the attitude uv a student rather than a combatant.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Commenting on my grammar is funny coming from a person who writes like a blind man with a broken keyboard.
If you are unwilling to debate here than go away. I'm not spending my time decoding your stupid shit. Which as I pointed out can't be one letter for one sound since there are more sounds than you have letters. My spelling and grammar may suck, but I can do simple math.
So out of all the points you have failed to address let us start with that one.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359
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You are adding evidence in support uv my hypothosis that goofed up spelling promotes bad lojik in general.
Until you actually lern wut you are talking about I can rite anything here and you wont hav any way to dispute it. You will only be able to continue making a fool uv yourself by hurling insults.
Sumbody mentioned the entry for Nooalf on the Something Awful website. (its sorta like the web equivelent uv a morning zoo radio show)
That wuz an amuzing couple uv dayz after that posted. I got a bunch uv rowdy emailz frum people calling me a moron, saying people who cant spell are just lazy or stupid; out uv 30 or 40 letterz only 2 were in favor uv spelling reform at all and they only had the usual 'ough' simplificationz in mind.
The thing that shoud interest you iz that a dozen or so got the idea to write their insults in Nooalf, just to prove how clever they are.
How poorly woud you expect sum haf drunk college punks to do with a system they didnt know existed 5 minits ago, picking letterz off a chart on their screen to write their profanity saturated jeerz?
Most uv them were pretty close. Usually just a few superfluous Uz or lapsez to regular spelling, but there wuznt 1 word that I coudnt read immediately. 1 guy actually wrote 3 sentencez with only a single mistake.
This shoud be enuf to dispel 2 uv your arguments.
1. There are no missing letter/soundz. All the referncez you will find from suppozedly authoritativ soursez that say there are 40 or more soundz in English are mistaken. The fact that different soursez claim different numberz shoud clue you in that sumthingz not quite rite in the wonderful world uv linguistics.
I've debated that issue with dozenz uv people, including sum Ph.D linguists, and they all either gave up or conceded that I am correct.
35 soundz are needed to completely reprezent every word in the English lexicon. 1 sound, 'au', can be dispensed with for the Standard American dialect creating only a hand full uv ambiguous word pairz.
2. Nooalf iz very compatible with regular spelling. Your refuzal to study the system well enuf to even begin critsizing it iz based purely on fear.
You are afraid that knowing anything about it will begin to erode your faith in traditional spelling; that you will start to see how truly rediculous it iz.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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