Nooalf Discussion
POSTED BY: m52nickerson
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 13:45
VIEWED: 39366
PAGE 4 of 17
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
[Are you British? If so, you are a fine wun to be complaining.
In any case, you are mischaracterizing the basic idea.
A language iz a dialect with an army. America haz the biggest army. Not my fault.
But cheer up!
An important aspect uv this iz that printing iz going away. The cost uv riting stuff in many languagez and dialects iz nearing zero. Any 'schmoe' with an internet connection can translate anything he wants into hiz favorit dialect no matter how few people speak it.
And with Nooalf, sumwun on the other side uv the planet who never heard uv the Lower South Wales suburban punk dialect will be able to 'hear' it by reading it in Nooalf.
Which of course takes away standardization with is often important.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Are you British? If so, you are a fine wun to be complaining.
No I am not.
Quote:
In any case, you are mischaracterizing the basic idea.
A language iz a dialect with an army. America haz the biggest army. Not my fault.
Except that currently I can read without having to translate from an American accent. That is the beauty of non phonetic spelling. In fact one of the big things that China has over us is a completely non phonetic written script. So that people can read Mandarin who speak completely different dialects. A bit like how numbers are non phonetic.
Quote:
But cheer up!
I'm not uncheered. I just disagree with your ideas on language.
Have you read Feersum Endjun btw? I found that it took a lot longer to read because in order to do so I had to say the words in my head. It was like going back to early school. Normally when I read, I can comprehend without saying, silently or otherwise.
I think there may be some room for cleaning up a bit of spelling, but I am against your idea for the above reasons.
Tha leftenant sed to the clark, can yew get the troops to kew up for tee. Tomarto soop, beef stuw with scons for dzurt.
Quote:
And with Nooalf, sumwun on the other side uv the planet who never heard uv the Lower South Wales suburban punk dialect will be able to 'hear' it by reading it in Nooalf.
or they can just listen to someone speak through the internet.
Quote:
And I shoud also make sum more attractive fonts.
it will still look like an illiterate fool has written it, but good luck anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Do I think there is a literacy problems in English speaking countries, no. I think we could improve but I don not think there is a huge problem.
I have found that the literacy stats offered by sum soursez are wildly optimistic. And you hav to wonder how any uv them get their numberz.
Herez a Google search to peruze: [url] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1008&bih
=407&q=illiteracy+statistics&gbv=2&oq=illiteracy&gs_l=aol-hp.1.2.0l10.24329.30834.0.37532.13.11.1.1.1.0.305.2171.1j5j4j1.11.0...0.0...1ac.1._XXeU_hqJZE]
Just so you cant accuze me uv cherry picking.
Its hard to argue against the fact that its way eazier to learn 34 letterz than 34,000 stringz uv letterz....
Quote:
Now the definition of alphabet;....
I see one mention of phonetics, and this only states that the alphabet represent the sounds.
...but if you are willing to arguing against the fundamental definition uv wordz, you cant looz! (at least in your own mind)
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I have found that the literacy stats offered by sum soursez are wildly optimistic. And you hav to wonder how any uv them get their numberz.
Most of the time you can find there methodology. It still depends on what their criteria is for literacy.
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Its hard to argue against the fact that its way eazier to learn 34 letterz than 34,000 stringz uv letterz....
Sure, but just leaning the letters and the sounds they represent is only a part of literacy. You can't ignore all the factor that go into a literacy deficiency. It is not just because spelling is hard. There are other factor such as social economic conditions and learning disability. You can't also ignore the fact that for adults learning any language is more difficult.
...and you still have zero empirical evidence your system will do any better.
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:...but if you are willing to arguing against the fundamental definition uv wordz, you cant looz! (at least in your own mind)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alphabet
What fundamental definition? Alphabet - a set of letters or other characters with which one or more languages are written especially if arranged in a customary order.
Sorry, still no expectation of words being spelled phonetically.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Are you familiar with the term 'cherry picking'?
Try reading a little further down the paje you linked.
And from my 1968 Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedic dictionary:
2. any system of characters or symbols representing the sounds of speech.
Very similar from my 1970 American Heritage:
2. Any system of characters or symbols representing sounds or things.
Theres a statement ritten in gold on the front cover of the American Heritage dictionary that really nails it:
"The power of words properly understood and used is mankind's most precious gift."
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. There are different definitions of alphabet and not all of them has to do with representing the sounds of speech, and certainly they do not state that each letter should or would represent a single sound. English has been around for a long damn time and there has never been this expectation of perfect phonemic spelling.
Oh, and if you are going try and cherry pick definition it would be smart not to copy the "2." in front of them.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359
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Herez a paje about literacy training and the Alfabetic Principal:
[url] http://www.readingrockets.org/article/3408/]
Quote:
Children's reading development is dependent on their understanding of the alphabetic principle – the idea that letters and letter patterns represent the sounds of spoken language. Learning that there are predictable relationships between sounds and letters allows children to apply these relationships to both familiar and unfamiliar words, and to begin to read with fluency.
Wun uv the featurez on the Nooalf charts iz an introductory chart for traditional spelling. It haz the regular 26 letterz in CAPS and lower case with the most common soundz each uv them makes.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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I've been in favor of phoneticized spelling for years, althoh miy kunstrukshun wood bee difrent.
Part of the reason is because both my hubby and MIL came from a different country and had no end of difficulty learning how to spell, and boys in general have a tough time with spelling.
In looking up international science and math scores, I noticed that all of the English-speaking nations are behind the non-English speaking nations. That iz beekuz, Iy beeleev, we are SO BUSY reciting "I before E except after C or when sounding like AY as in NEIGHBOR or WEIGH"
I'm fully aware of the history of the English language... it's an incompletely digested mix of ancient Greek, Latin, French, German, Spanish, and more... making it a wonderful melange of flavors from history and around the world. But it's also grabbed the spelling rules from each language (hence the ei and ie French/ German confusion).
On the plus side, I found it very helpful having a wide ENGLISH vocabulary in learning French via Latin-based words like cincture for ceinture and fenestration for fenetre(circumflex second "e"), and of course everyone can relate das bier (beer) and die jacke (jacket) from German.
And English has some really great grammatical features, such as a verb tense which indicates time and pronouns such as "I" and "she" (which Mandarin doesn't have), a neutral gender which is reliably used for inanimate objects (take THAT, French and German!), and the divorcement of adjectives, adverbs, verbs (for the most part) and objects from the other words they describe (in which you would have to describe your shiny black female table as a shineye blacke tablete)... take THAT all other languages!)
On the downside... more grammatical than phonetic... English also has a few grammatical glitches... lack of a plural "you" (often constructed as "yous" or "yous guys"), and the NOUN-VERB-OBJECT construction and that quirky third-person singular verb construction which puts an "s" at the end of third-person verbs (I roll/ you roll/ He-she-it rolls). Hmmm.. also, while I'm thinking about it, lack of a truly genderless singular third person...we wind up saying "they" instead of "he" or "she" because we don't have anything else... but maybe we can work on those later...
Also on the negative... Yep, it would be great if in teaching the language we could also teach everyone the root words so that people would get an introduction to a half-dozen or so other languages (some of them dead), but the reality is that people have a hard enough time just getting through English. If you reelee want to know a word's origins, just go to the dikshunaree.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Herez a paje about literacy training and the Alfabetic Principal:
[url] http://www.readingrockets.org/article/3408/]Quote:
Children's reading development is dependent on their understanding of the alphabetic principle – the idea that letters and letter patterns represent the sounds of spoken language. Learning that there are predictable relationships between sounds and letters allows children to apply these relationships to both familiar and unfamiliar words, and to begin to read with fluency.
Wun uv the featurez on the Nooalf charts iz an introductory chart for traditional spelling. It haz the regular 26 letterz in CAPS and lower case with the most common soundz each uv them makes.
Okay....and?
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359
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BTW- I always wondered where the "f" came from in lieutenant. The only thing I can figure is the English-French wars and rivalry made it impossible for Brits to pronounce many clearly French-sourced words with anything like a French pronunciation.
Kerb. Sensiblee speld.
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