The wrong side must not win
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Monday, August 26, 2024 17:12
VIEWED: 8309
PAGE 3 of 10
Um, you did. I can resurrect the thread for you, if you wish. So you'll pardon me if I don't take YOUR judgment as an example to follow.
The question isn't whether Obama is better than Mitt (he is), it's whether Obama is more good than bad. Let me answer that, in MY humble opinion, I didn't vote for Clinton the second time around and he had a better track record than Obama.
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Quote:
Bingo. BIG bingo.
It is possible that due to the evil we have established precedence for in the past, that they are growing bold with new evils. That would be a troubling prospect.
Wow, Cav. You must have posted the above while I was typing my post (immediately following), because I never saw this. Impressive, really impressively concise and right on.--and I agree with Magons' comments, too.
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False equivalence - Somalia, Rwanda and Zimbabwe are *not* examples of Anarchy.
They are however, perfect examples of the end result of Government.
Specifically the loot-and-run "capitalism" of the American Right Wing, as practiced on a worldwide front by the IMF, WTO and other vultures of that sort - but Government as a whole tends to fail that way when it is against the will of people rather than supporting it.
I mean, did it never occur to anyone, anywhere, ever, that even an Anarchist can accept, and agree on, rules and structures that are mutually desired by an entire community ?
That maybe, just maybe, they might CHOOSE to follow some "rules" because they're logical, make sense, and provide benefit for all ?
Or is the kool-aid too deep for even normally thinking minds to see through ?
-Frem
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Frem, I did not say that Somalia was a great example of anarchy, CTS did.
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"... even an Anarchist can accept, and agree on, rules and structures that are mutually desired by an entire community ..."
Just to point out that while humans CAN create social structures of equality and mutuality, they can ALSO create social structures of mortal and planetary destruction. I'm just trying to head off any 'human nature' arguments, b/c our 'human nature' seems quite capable of creating and perpetuating a wide divergence of social structures.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Hitler and Stalin are clearly not the same. But I would be hard-pressed to vote for either of them.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
but both sides are clearly not the same.
I'd rather have a third or fourth choice. And I think that is the point of this piece.
You wouldn't have the chance, as neither offered elections.
However, my point really was that all sides are not the same. You may despise both sides as they do not fit your own values/and or ideology but it either one winning will make a difference to the lives of who live under their possible rule.
The kinds of arguments presented in your original, albeit satirical post, imply they are both the same and that it makes no difference who wins, which just isn't true.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm just trying to head off any 'human nature' arguments, b/c our 'human nature' seems quite capable of creating and perpetuating a wide divergence of social structures.
Indeed it does - ANY of which will work provided they are administered fairly and with a high percentage of consent or tolerance on behalf of those administered, that being the important, sticky point.
I mean, for example, if say 80% of your population LIKES the monarchy and thinks they rule well, and about say 12% more put up with them cause they feel the alternatives suck worse, well then you're a happy little country and your system works - the SYSTEM itself isn't never what matters, it's the express, implied, or begrudging consent that does.
When you do not have that consent, and resort to force, threat and fear to secure it, then you are on the short road to an inevitable blood bath, history makes that so far an iron-clad fact, and thus reason and persuasion are the better options even if you are disliked and untrusted, because IT IS STILL POSSIBLE TO REASON WITH YOU.
Cause that's really it, what it all boils down to, dealing with your fellow humans, Reason or Force.
Remove Reason as a factor, as the GOP seems hell bent on, and you leave only Force.
And despite suppression, trolling, sock puppetry and other chicanery to amplify their loud little handful, they have neither a monopoly on Force, nor the numbers to employ it effectively enough to make it work.
But since Reason has fled them, in the protected self-delusion of their ivory towers, they believe this purile fantasy and will continue to do so right up till the flames consume them, because they've codified their whole existence into lies they wish to MAKE reality.
But only if we let them, and I for one, do not plan on it.
-Frem
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Quote:I absolutely wish. In fact, I dare you to find that thread.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Um, you did. I can resurrect the thread for you, if you wish.
Quote:
Frem, I did not say that Somalia was a great example of anarchy, CTS did.
I absolutely NEVER said any such thing. I DARE you to prove I did.
No end to your outright lies, is there?
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Quote:I'm sure if Hitler were running against Stalin, Jews might vote for Stalin, because he would make a significant difference to their lives under his rule.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
either one winning will make a difference to the lives of who live under their possible rule.
Quote:Whether someone makes a "difference," depends on the level of change you are looking for.
The kinds of arguments presented in your original, albeit satirical post, imply they are both the same and that it makes no difference who wins, which just isn't true.
If you are simply looking for Ukrainians to die instead of Jews, sure, Stalin would be different from Hitler. If you are looking for economic prosperity that doesn't rest on the backs of millions of dead people, then there is no difference between Hitler and Stalin.
The level of change I am looking for is not offered by Either Side. I want the war in Afghan and Paki to stop. I want the drones to stop murdering innocent people. I want Guantanamo and all its fellow concentration camps to close. I want the Patriot Act to be annulled. I want our health care system to be overhauled without the involvement of private insurance companies. I want income taxes to stop, or at least decrease significantly. I want large corporations to start paying taxes if we are going to have taxes. I want fracking to stop. I want small businesses to be free to be small. I want the 1% to stop scamming the rest of the country by putting cronies in powerful positions and twisting laws.
Neither Side makes the kind of difference I want to see. So pardon me if I opt for other choices.
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CTS, everything you said is what I would like to see, and more, especially when it comes to the environment and conservation. And neither side will do any of those, obviously. But I also DON'T want to see many things the Republicans have PROMISED to do, and I think a Romney/Ryan administration would put us in MORE wars, keep us in Afghanistan, and be all in favor of widening the war in Pakistan.
The Reubs, from what they've indicated, would INCREASE the 1%'s wealth.
They would INCREASE fracking, and all other forms of oil drilling here and off the coasts.
They would DECREASE taxes on large corporations.
For me, the "side" which would do less harm is what I'll accept, reluctantly, to avoid some of the egregious intentions already put forth by the Republicans.
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