Solidarity and Hate.
POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 04:07
VIEWED: 9106
PAGE 6 of 8
I'll be the first to admit I'm a huge jackass, and I don't believe in feeling beholden to anyone no matter what they've done for the country. I don't like the government, so service to the government doesn't really have any meaning for me. But you've redeemed yourself, Indrid, by taking our negative reactions in stride and not responding to my horseshit. I take back what I said about you, and I apologize.
I also hope that you stick around.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
...and what are those rates? ...... Suicide rate less than 1%.
Well, yes, if you're looking only at that limited group. Another way to look at it is that servicemembers account for a fifth of American suicides, and that a service member or vet kills themselves every 80 minutes.
Which is higher than is should be, yes. There is no doubt that the military can do better for vets returning home from war.
That does not mean a vast majority of those who serve do not benefit from there service.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
And a vast number of those who serve suffer from their service, and quite a few die. The military tends to call them "collateral damage".
As to accusations of me being the left-wing Rappy, I think you fit that bill better. You never seem to be able to make a valid point, you rarely cite your "sources" or provide much if anything in the way of facts to support your claims, and you totally and completely suck at communicating in English.
You might want to look to that yourself.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And a vast number of those who serve suffer from their service, and quite a few die. The military tends to call them "collateral damage".
As to accusations of me being the left-wing Rappy, I think you fit that bill better. You never seem to be able to make a valid point, you rarely cite your "sources" or provide much if anything in the way of facts to support your claims, and you totally and completely suck at communicating in English.
You might want to look to that yourself.
Hardly anyone here cites sources with any regularity.
Now, do you have any sources which support your claim that "a vast number of those who serve suffer from their service"? What you considered a vast number? Does that number constitute a majority, or even close?
Here a citation for you...
"Even so, 96% of the vets say they are proud of their service and 74% say their military experience has helped them get ahead in life. Ninety-three percent say the military has helped them mature and more than eight of 10 say they would advise a young person close to them to join the military."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/story/2011-10-04/survey-military
-civilian/50661474/1
The story talks about the struggles of vets returning from combat, but even with those a vast majority still say they benefited.
You also have some 300,000 who are talking advantage of the G.I. bill and going to school.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/1110/Veterans-Day-survey-30
0-000-use-revamped-GI-Bill
So, I showed you mind. Now you show me yours!
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Regardless of how they feel about their service, some of the past few wars have been largely a sham. They are not fighting for the reasons they think they are - or, as has already been illustrated, they have forgotten why they are fighting. And others are fighting for a chance at college, at a future, which shouldn't have war as a prerequisite. It is a waste of life and limb.
That such a majority feels warm fuzzies about being so used indicates just how much they've been deceived. Let alone that many of them seem to think these wars have made us safer, and more free.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Regardless of how they feel about their service, some of the past few wars have been largely a sham. They are not fighting for the reasons they think they are - or, as has already been illustrated, they have forgotten why they are fighting. And others are fighting for a chance at college, at a future, which shouldn't have war as a prerequisite. It is a waste of life and limb.
That such a majority feels warm fuzzies about being so used indicates just how much they've been deceived. Let alone that many of them seem to think these wars have made us safer, and more free.
If you look at the one article I posted many do feel that the current wars have been a waste. That is the war, and not their overall experience in the military. As for the ones that feel the wars have not been a waste, I'm sure they could make arguments as to why.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You are Kwicko are the ones who made it about their overall experience in the military. Your interpretation of what I said does not in fact equal what I intended to say.
The wars have destabilized the region, made life harder for the civilians we intended to help, and have not made our country freer or safer. One of the wars we were given obviously false information that convinced everyone else we should go. But in either case, the wars are a sham, therefore they are a waste.
To me, this seems like an inherent truth, self-evident and empirical by every measure. The confirmation of the statement exists without dependence upon anyone's feelings about the wars. To call the wars a success, to say that we have improved the situation in the middle east, or for ourselves, would require a level of self-deception I don't particularly want to indulge in.
And if someone fights two or so years for a lie, then I happen to think they have wasted those two years, and I also happen to think they must have been tricked. You may try to counter me with as many veteran success stories as you wish. It does not change the basic facts of the matter.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You are Kwicko are the ones who made it about their overall experience in the military. Your interpretation of what I said does not in fact equal what I intended to say.
Well, I can only respond to what you said, not what you intended.
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The wars have destabilized the region, made life harder for the civilians we intended to help, and have not made our country freer or safer. One of the wars we were given obviously false information that convinced everyone else we should go. But in either case, the wars are a sham, therefore they are a waste.
Toppling a government that allowed Al-Qaeda to have a base of operations has made this country and others safer. The question is if the cost of the extra safety was worth it? You can make the argument that the war has made things worse for people in Iraq. I think that is far harder in Afghanistan.
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
To me, this seems like an inherent truth, self-evident and empirical by every measure. The confirmation of the statement exists without dependence upon anyone's feelings about the wars. To call the wars a success, to say that we have improved the situation in the middle east, or for ourselves, would require a level of self-deception I don't particularly want to indulge in.
I'm sure there are a lot of people in both countries that have it worse now. I'm also sure that a lot of people have it better. Seeing as we have not been to those places and seen first hand what is going on, nor spoken to the people we are speaking from second hand knowledge.
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And if someone fights two or so years for a lie, then I happen to think they have wasted those two years, and I also happen to think they must have been tricked. You may try to counter me with as many veteran success stories as you wish. It does not change the basic facts of the matter.
It's hard to say that anyone who fought in Afghanistan was tricked. It is equally hard to say that anyone who fought in Iraq after it had become apparent that we had toppled Saddam for the wrong reasons where tricked. I think the vast majority of soldiers understood the situations just fine.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Toppling a government that allowed Al-Qaeda to have a base of operations has made this country and others safer.
Pretty sure most of the Al-Qaeda leadership already moved by the time we invaded. Kicking over the Taliban made no real difference because the Taliban WEREN'T Al-Qaeda, though now we've inspired a lot of new terrorists and insurgents to join up.
So no, it hasn't. What we have is security theater that makes us feel safer when we're not. Antagonism against us is kind of at an all time high, and even our allies don't like us nowadays.
Quote:
I think that is far harder in Afghanistan.
The people we trained as security forces for the new Afghanistan government are now shooting at us. That says volumes. We installed a corrupt leader who rigs the votes, so it's not democracy. Girls are going to schools now, but opponents to women in schools poison their water and a lot of the progress made there is being neglected and may be lost. Warlords control the outlying regions, a human slave trade and protection racket have dropped up, and people are still dying in droves.
Quote:
It's hard to say that anyone who fought in Afghanistan was tricked. It is equally hard to say that anyone who fought in Iraq after it had become apparent that we had toppled Saddam for the wrong reasons where tricked. I think the vast majority of soldiers understood the situations just fine.
They thought they were making everything better, when really, it's just made things completely chaotic. And I suspect once we leave the warlords and theocrats will take over, so that's definitely not better. It'd be about the same really if we hadn't killed so many people, so that pushes it into "worse" territory.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Regardless of how they feel about their service, some of the past few wars have been largely a sham. They are not fighting for the reasons they think they are - or, as has already been illustrated, they have forgotten why they are fighting. And others are fighting for a chance at college, at a future, which shouldn't have war as a prerequisite. It is a waste of life and limb.
That such a majority feels warm fuzzies about being so used indicates just how much they've been deceived. Let alone that many of them seem to think these wars have made us safer, and more free.
If you look at the one article I posted many do feel that the current wars have been a waste. That is the war, and not their overall experience in the military.
And besides that one little thing, JFK really loved his Dallas trip...
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Pretty sure most of the Al-Qaeda leadership already moved by the time we invaded. Kicking over the Taliban made no real difference because the Taliban WEREN'T Al-Qaeda, though now we've inspired a lot of new terrorists and insurgents to join up.
So no, it hasn't. What we have is security theater that makes us feel safer when we're not. Antagonism against us is kind of at an all time high, and even our allies don't like us nowadays.
The Taliban offered massive support to Al-Qaeda. Getting them out of power was the first step. Some of Al-Qaeda's leaders fled, but not all of them. We killed a fair number of them in Afghanistan. The invasion may have inspired more to join, but they as time has gone on Al-Qaeda has gotten weaker and weaker.
Our allies still like us. Did you forget about our supporting role in NATO's operations in Lybia?
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The people we trained as security forces for the new Afghanistan government are now shooting at us. That says volumes. We installed a corrupt leader who rigs the votes, so it's not democracy. Girls are going to schools now, but opponents to women in schools poison their water and a lot of the progress made there is being neglected and may be lost. Warlords control the outlying regions, a human slave trade and protection racket have dropped up, and people are still dying in droves.
A few incidences out of a very large number of security forces. It does not say that much other than there are a few people who got in that should not have.
Yes there are still problems, but no more than under Taliban control. Should girls not go to school at all because of threats? Do you think that human trafficking did not happen in the region before hand?
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
They thought they were making everything better, when really; it's just made things completely chaotic. And I suspect once we leave the warlords and theocrats will take over, so that's definitely not better. It'd be about the same really if we hadn't killed so many people, so that pushes it into "worse" territory.
That is why we should not leave until those things will not happen. Yes the war made things chaotic. Wars normally do that. The place was not a center of tranquility before we got there. You still had different factions fighting the Taliban in some areas. Remember how we looked to them for help early on.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME