Did Simon Lie ?
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 06:24
VIEWED: 5727
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Quote:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Originally posted by corwyn:
It amazes me that the same people who ridicule the hill folk as ignorant for thinking that River is a witch, are prepared to believe she is psychic on exactly the same evidence . One doesn't seem intrinsically more likely to me.
Thank You Kindly.
Now, I will admit River's abilities are not really 'tech' per-se. If you will, allow me this bit of allusion to make my point.
To begin with, your use of the word 'ignorant' is correct. For example - Simple folk would think a flying machine is a demon or god, if they had never been exposed to that 'tech' before. Therefore they are 'ignorant' of that facet of science and have a tendency to ascribe a mythological meaning to it. Check out something (Google it) called the Cargo Cult and you will see a prime real-life example of what I mean.
Back to River - You have to define what you mean by 'witch'. The villagers - especially the 'Elder' uses that term to insure River is destroyed before any other 'dirty laundry' is aired. Calling someone a 'witch' had been, historically, a method if ridding a society of an 'undesirable'person. Used, historically specific - 'dark ages Dentists/Surgeons in ridding their towns of mid-wives and healers who stole business away from them, by having them labeled as a witch.
Simon notes in "Ariel" that a 'filter' in River's brain has been 'turned off' (the aforementioned 'tech') through surgery. That filter allows a person to ignore input and process what is important to the individual. River cannot do this -- she sees, hears, feels EVERYTHING. Now with her inherent uber-genius, she can make connections and 'predict the future'.
I am very sure other tech/science aspects of River's psychic abilities (mind reading and the like - look up 'Cold Reading' for some nifty info) would have been discussed (like in "Ariel") if the show had been allowed to continue.
Simon is our 'eyes' of science, he is a genius too, remember! So his observations will be grounded in the physical world and less of the spiritual or supernatural.
To the question of this thread: No, Simon did not lie. He witheld information. That is not lying.
"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers
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Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
It amazes me that the same people who ridicule the hill folk as ignorant for thinking that River is a witch, are prepared to believe she is psychic on exactly the same evidence . One doesn't seem intrinsically more likely to me.
Thank You Kindly.
Well, I believe that it is clear that River is a psychic (I'll gladly resurrect the thread with my thesis on this issue). This seems to be an outgrowth of her incredible brain and the tampering done by her captors. That is to say, some natural ability that we do not yet understand.
I think it is ignorant that these villagers are assuming some demonic or mystical force is involved.
The Real Me
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I think Simon has noticed patterns in River's behavior, but is uncertain what to make of them.
He is still "collating data."
I think we need to define what we are talking about when we say "psychic." Mal says that River is a "reader" -- that she can read minds -- telepathy -- not that she can predict the future.
In Safe she would have to have been reading memories or something else to know what she does about Ruby and the Patron.
Oddly enough River seems to have strong connection with Mal. She seems to more often react when something bad is happening to him (or Simon) than therest of the crew. Notice even when Book is shot in Safe that River reacts when Mal sees it, not when it occurs. The connection with Simon is to be expected. The connection with Mal is fascinating. Even though Mal thinks she is a bit crazy, he listens to her comments and begins to realize the connections her comments have.
However, is telepathy all that is involved here?
Or is there clairvoyance or some other psychic phenomena as well?
Remember River says "Fire" in out of gas as the fire ball is building but before anyone else knew about it. She could not have gotten that by reading anyone's mind.
And River's comments in Ariel about them stealing Christmas may have meant that she could no longer have the joy of being surprised by the presents because she could not avoid knowing what they are.
But obviously River does not know the future or this crew would stay out of trouble more than they do. But she may "see" things in the present that most of us could not see (clairvoyance).
Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Well, I believe that it is clear that River is a psychic (I'll gladly resurrect the thread with my thesis on this issue). This seems to be an outgrowth of her incredible brain and the tampering done by her captors. That is to say, some natural ability that we do not yet understand.
I think it is ignorant that these villagers are assuming some demonic or mystical force is involved.
You admit you don't understand it. So, you ascribe it to your higher power (Technology) while the villagers ascribe it to their higher power (God/Satan). I fail to see any difference between the two.
I am just ignorant, (and prepared to admit it).
Thank You Kindly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
I fail to see any difference between the two.
The difference is not in the Power, but in how the people around her percieve or suspect how she will use that Power. The villagers were fearful and superstitious. The crew is more hopeful.
It doesn't matter what you call her Power, or even what its source is. What matters is how people react to it.
Oh, and play Strange Adventures in Infinite Space. http://digital-eel.com/sais
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Not quite the same thing, Corwyn. I would admit that I don't understand River's abilities YET, and more importantly I ascribe no moral judgement on the abilities.
The villagers seemed to regard River as having an evil power, or being a servant of evil, and (familiar with the type) I think that they would not WANT to try to understand (and thereby be "contaminated by evil" themselves).
While in real life I do not believe in ESP, psychic ability, or magic, if confronted with some obvious manifestation of any of those, my first thought, I believe, would be curiosity.
Yes, if magic existed, then you could apply the scientific method to try to understand it!
The Real Me
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She turned me into a newt.
I got better.
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Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:
The difference is not in the Power, but in how the people around her percieve or suspect how she will use that Power. The villagers were fearful and superstitious. The crew is more hopeful.
I'm not too sure. Seemed to me that the crew were somewhat uncomfortable (where they weren't outright derisive) with the idea, too.
Not sure that she is 'psychic' per se, if only because the crew have now guessed that, which tends to indicate that the truth will be even stranger and more interesting.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Also he knew River was telling the truth about Jayne setting them up to be caught on Ariel ... thats why he had Jayne on the table ....
But in OIS when Mal and the rest of the crew got together to discuss River Simon fiened like he was ignorant..and we know he's not...
I think the big portion of it is that, despite what certain people associated with the creation of Firefly would say, all evidence points to "Trash" and "The Message" coming after "Objects in Space", chronologically. The other part's covering for family.
"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Yes, if magic existed, then you could apply the scientific method to try to understand it!
Actually it's a little more complicated than the scientific method will allow. Think of Love for example, something most of us will agree exists. There are those people whom we say we "love" and people we know we do not. We fall in love with certain people and we won't with others. The principle of this is beyond science. Science is fundamentally a process of generalization and love cannot be generalized. It exists between two unique individuals, under unique circumstances, in a very specific time frame. Say you were studying a subject who was in love with someone. On a given day your findings could be absolutely at odds with your findings the day before, depending on the mood of your subject. Or perhaps your subject grows to dislike you, so that would skew the data and reduce responsiveness. Or your subject falls in love with you and suddenly all your pet theories are miraculously proved true by the subject's subconscious wish to please.
Now, say your subject is psychic. Suppose that psychic ability ebbs and flows as a person loves or feels loved. So, one day your subject is in love and feeling very loved in return and she is able to perform whatever psychic test of yours with ease. Then the next day she's just had a fight with her lover and she has a cold and she thinks it's because she's been doing all these damn psychic tests. Scientifically, you wouldn't get anything like reliable data, but that wouldn't prove that the phenomenon didn't exist. On the contrary, something so commonplace, so fundamental to our experience--to our very survival--as love cannot be quantified. Only crazy people and some very unimaginative scientist do not believe love exists.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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